Jump to content

(4) (5) Lexington Avenue Express


<6>PelhamExp

Recommended Posts

23 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

 

The interesting thing is that the Bronx is well covered compared to Queens, Staten island, and South East Brooklyn

 

I would disagree with that just because the Bronx is also very hilly in most areas. I find getting around in general much annoying for that reason. Even the so called "flat" areas can be hilly, just not as noticeable as other areas.  Ironically enough, a parent just called me wanting to tutor their kid this weekend, and they live near the Northeastern area of the Bronx and I'm thinking, ugh do I really want to go all the way up there because I'll have to take an express bus into Manhattan and then transfer to an express bus to reach the Bronx.  It's easily an hour plus each way assuming I connect fairly easily in Manhattan.  

In my opinion, between the hills and the expressways, it makes a lot of neighborhoods cut off and that in turn makes reaching them a real chore.  Just look at the bus map. To go east-west, just about all of the routes meander about.  None of them really go straight across.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites


6 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I would disagree with that just because the Bronx is also very hilly in most areas. I find getting around in general much annoying for that reason. Even the so called "flat" areas can be hilly, just not as noticeable as other areas.  Ironically enough, a parent just called me wanting to tutor their kid this weekend, and they live near the Northeastern area of the Bronx and I'm thinking, ugh do I really want to go all the way up there because I'll have to take an express bus into Manhattan and then transfer to an express bus to reach the Bronx.  It's easily an hour plus each way assuming I connect fairly easily in Manhattan.  

In my opinion, between the hills and the expressways, it makes a lot of neighborhoods cut off and that in turn makes reaching them a real chore.  Just look at the bus map. To go east-west, just about all of the routes meander about.  None of them really go straight across.  

What about BX10 to BX16 or BX30?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, N6 Limited said:

What about BX10 to BX16 or BX30?

The Bx10 meanders like crazy and it has to because it goes through such hilly terrain and part of it is that there is no real street grid.  The Bx16 and Bx30 I'm not as familiar with, but I've seen them too and they also meander quite a bit and backtrack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To answer a couple of questions on why the Bronx subway is laid out as it is, you have to remember when the subway was built. Most of the subway and especially the Bronx elevated lines were all built before or by 1920. In fact, the entire Broadway line in the Bronx, along with the White Plains Rd line from West Farms Sq to 3 Avenue all date back to before 1910, a time when virtually all of the travel was between the outer-boroughs and Lower Manhattan. Expanding crosstown service beyond the established streetcar lines was not seen as a worthwhile expense when the overall goal of the subway expansion at the time was to facilitate real estate expansion outside of Manhattan.

Other things to be considered include the competition between the private companies and the city-owned subway along with the reduction in transit real estate over the years. Regarding the first, one of the main reasons why the Concourse line runs under the Grand Concourse is because the IND wanted to eliminate the IRT Jerome Ave line by siphoning off its potential revenue. While both lines complement each other today, had the IND not been trying to put the IRT out of business, the Concourse line may have run somewhere else where it could've provided more benefits. On the subject of the latter, as mentioned, we lost crucial transit infrastructure over the years, most notably the 3rd Avenue elevated, creating a transit desert we still haven't fixed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lance said:

To answer a couple of questions on why the Bronx subway is laid out as it is, you have to remember when the subway was built. Most of the subway and especially the Bronx elevated lines were all built before or by 1920. In fact, the entire Broadway line in the Bronx, along with the White Plains Rd line from West Farms Sq to 3 Avenue all date back to before 1910, a time when virtually all of the travel was between the outer-boroughs and Lower Manhattan. Expanding crosstown service beyond the established streetcar lines was not seen as a worthwhile expense when the overall goal of the subway expansion at the time was to facilitate real estate expansion outside of Manhattan.

Other things to be considered include the competition between the private companies and the city-owned subway along with the reduction in transit real estate over the years. Regarding the first, one of the main reasons why the Concourse line runs under the Grand Concourse is because the IND wanted to eliminate the IRT Jerome Ave line by siphoning off its potential revenue. While both lines complement each other today, had the IND not been trying to put the IRT out of business, the Concourse line may have run somewhere else where it could've provided more benefits. On the subject of the latter, as mentioned, we lost crucial transit infrastructure over the years, most notably the 3rd Avenue elevated, creating a transit desert we still haven't fixed.

To add on, in the early 20th century the subway system was essentially the IRT based in upper Manhattan / Bronx expanding into Lower Manhattan/Brooklyn, and the BRT/BMT based in Brooklyn expanding into Midtown Manhattan. Today the Bronx lines are overcrowded compared to their Brooklyn counterparts because the IRT eventually made it to Brooklyn but the BMT never got past 59 St. Furthermore, the IRT trains have significantly less capacity than the BMT and the IRT predates the BMT so most development occurred around the former.

The subway system circa 1920 was actually fairly coherent: you have East Side and West Side subways for the IRT, and the BMT got a very lucrative corridor along Broadway into Manhattan. In fact, the Broadway express tracks were supposed to become the CPW line, but the IND threw a major wrench in their plans by building the 8 Ave corridor. It also doesn't help that the elevated lines in Manhattan that belonged to the IRT were all eventually torn down. The IND built the replacements for the 9 Av and 6 Av els, but the SAS for the 2 Av and 3 Av els was always delayed, and w/o the SAS, the 3 Av el in the Bronx had to be torn down as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lance said:

To answer a couple of questions on why the Bronx subway is laid out as it is, you have to remember when the subway was built. Most of the subway and especially the Bronx elevated lines were all built before or by 1920. In fact, the entire Broadway line in the Bronx, along with the White Plains Rd line from West Farms Sq to 3 Avenue all date back to before 1910, a time when virtually all of the travel was between the outer-boroughs and Lower Manhattan. Expanding crosstown service beyond the established streetcar lines was not seen as a worthwhile expense when the overall goal of the subway expansion at the time was to facilitate real estate expansion outside of Manhattan.

Other things to be considered include the competition between the private companies and the city-owned subway along with the reduction in transit real estate over the years. Regarding the first, one of the main reasons why the Concourse line runs under the Grand Concourse is because the IND wanted to eliminate the IRT Jerome Ave line by siphoning off its potential revenue. While both lines complement each other today, had the IND not been trying to put the IRT out of business, the Concourse line may have run somewhere else where it could've provided more benefits. On the subject of the latter, as mentioned, we lost crucial transit infrastructure over the years, most notably the 3rd Avenue elevated, creating a transit desert we still haven't fixed.

The Concourse line was constructed long after the Concourse and Grand Boulevard was laid out. As you pointed out the  IRT  was in business to make a profit and that meant North- South service. Even when the IND began operation it's only cross borough line was proposed for the north Bronx.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

What would have made the Crosstown line better?

The Crosstown Line is a line attempting to do two things at once and failing at all of them.

The original plans for the Crosstown had the line connecting to the Franklin shuttle, which at one point was the BRT mainline. Had that happened, we would now have two lines forming an X serving that section of Brooklyn. Instead, they curved it back towards Downtown Brooklyn to steal ridership from the Myrtle El, making it a poor Crosstown service and a poor service for getting to Downtown Brooklyn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

The Crosstown Line is a line attempting to do two things at once and failing at all of them.

The original plans for the Crosstown had the line connecting to the Franklin shuttle, which at one point was the BRT mainline. Had that happened, we would now have two lines forming an X serving that section of Brooklyn. Instead, they curved it back towards Downtown Brooklyn to steal ridership from the Myrtle El, making it a poor Crosstown service and a poor service for getting to Downtown Brooklyn.

Connecting it to the Franklin shuttle would have made it a much better line. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Connecting it to the Franklin shuttle would have made it a much better line. 

As would building the express track all the way through from Hoyt to Court Square so it could actually operate as a midtown bypass between Downtown Brooklyn and the Flushing Line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Deucey said:

As would building the express track all the way through from Hoyt to Court Square so it could actually operate as a midtown bypass between Downtown Brooklyn and the Flushing Line.

The main problem preventing it from being a Midtown bypass is the fact that it is basically right next to Manhattan. By the time you get to Court Square, Lorimer/Metropolitan, or Hoyt-Schermerhorn, you're basically already in the central core. That's why RX is important.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/25/2018 at 11:48 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I also wasn't aware of how anti-transit Moses was. I just recall him destroying parts of the Bronx with expressways, but he was extremely influential in shaping NYC and what we have today.

You need to read Robert Caro's bio of Moses, The Power Broker.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/25/2018 at 1:37 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I would disagree with that just because the Bronx is also very hilly in most areas. I find getting around in general much annoying for that reason. Even the so called "flat" areas can be hilly, just not as noticeable as other areas.  Ironically enough, a parent just called me wanting to tutor their kid this weekend, and they live near the Northeastern area of the Bronx and I'm thinking, ugh do I really want to go all the way up there because I'll have to take an express bus into Manhattan and then transfer to an express bus to reach the Bronx.  It's easily an hour plus each way assuming I connect fairly easily in Manhattan.  

In my opinion, between the hills and the expressways, it makes a lot of neighborhoods cut off and that in turn makes reaching them a real chore.  Just look at the bus map. To go east-west, just about all of the routes meander about.  None of them really go straight across.  

You are right. It's tough going "crosstown" in the Bronx. There needs to be a rail link across Kingsbridge and Fordham Roads. Even light rail would be better than the buses we have now. That said, it's tough getting  crosstown in Queens and Brooklyn too. Ever try to  get from northern Astoria to Jamaica by subway? It's 15 minutes by car. Over an hour by subway/bus. (Not counting the supposedly quickest but ridiculous way on Google maps - which involves a 25 minute, 1.2 mile walk to a subway station - and which they claim takes 52 minutes.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Italianstallion said:

You are right. It's tough going "crosstown" in the Bronx. There needs to be a rail link across Kingsbridge and Fordham Roads. Even light rail would be better than the buses we have now. That said, it's tough getting  crosstown in Queens and Brooklyn too. Ever try to  get from northern Astoria to Jamaica by subway? It's 15 minutes by car. Over an hour by subway/bus. (Not counting the supposedly quickest but ridiculous way on Google maps - which involves a 25 minute, 1.2 mile walk to a subway station - and which they claim takes 52 minutes.)

I want to live in a world where that car travel time is consistently 15 minutes; between Kew Gardens Interchange, the LIE, and LGA, it is almost never that time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/25/2018 at 9:42 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I personally don't understand the subway layout in the Bronx at all to be frank. It sucks. That's the best way to put it.  It clearly was built just to get to and from Manhattan, and worse of all it leaves huge swaths of areas with nothing.  I often times refuse assignments in certain parts of the Bronx because it is too much of a headache to reach, and you usually have to go into Manhattan, then back into the Bronx if you want to take the subway, or make a gazillion transfers with the local buses and sit on a long bus ride, which also doesn't interest me.  Believe it or not, often times, the fastest way is take an express bus into Manhattan and then transfer on the Upper East Side.  The real issue is there is no East-West access in the Bronx and it is clear that it is a need given how packed most of the "crosstown" Bronx buses are.  The topography and street layout certainly doesn't help things.

 

I mean I would like one of you subway buffs to explain the history because to me it makes no sense. There is no way that the (4)(5) and (6) are going to cut it and that's what serves most of the Bronx.  

It does, and that is something that needs to be fixed.  The (N) / (W) extension I have mentioned before (that would likely wind up going to Jacobi Medical Center) would be a way for people in parts of Queens to not have to go through Manhattan just to get to The Bronx.  Being able to go to the Bronx directly from Queens via what currently is the Astoria line is probably the best way to do that. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

It does, and that is something that needs to be fixed.  The (N) / (W) extension I have mentioned before (that would likely wind up going to Jacobi Medical Center) would be a way for people in parts of Queens to not have to go through Manhattan just to get to The Bronx.  Being able to go to the Bronx directly from Queens via what currently is the Astoria line is probably the best way to do that. 

The problem with that is that such a line would serve only far western Queens. And the Astoria line has no direct connection to the Queens Blvd. line, the main route into Queens.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.