To all Train Operators who have had experienced a "12–9" passenger collision

[I Run Trains]

12 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

I'm guessing they can check if you had let go of the controller if it were an NTT? Similarly, can they check for signs of a T/O letting go of the spring-loaded deadman's controller on the more basic R62s and R62A's used in A Division? To detect if a timer was passed at danger causing the 12–9, all they have to do is inspect the painted triparm adjacent to the signal on the trackbed. If the yellow paint is damaged by the train's contact shoes, I feel bad for that T/O... I remember this one T/O working the awhile back saying that the controllers on the R62s used on the  are quite heavy to hold down for some reason. Hopefully that problem was addressed and fixed, because having to apply any more than 5–10 pounds of weight to keep the controller grounded is a hazard and can do more harm than good.

They can tell Nothing on a 62. 62's aint no Snitch! LoL heres no computers to tell anything so most of the time they are going to side with the train until the train is brought into the barn for investigation by the Car Inspectors. So they won't know it the train was put in emergency or if the control was let go! On 62's its your word vs what happened!

Now.... I'm trying to understand what you are trying to say because something is not making sense!.... if a timer was passed at danger, it wouldn't have been a 12-9 because the train would have stop as soon as it hit! (i should know! i hit enough timers!)... Contact shoes do not play a part in anything... there is absolutely no contact with the shoe... only the trip!

 

as far as the 62's on the  they are still heavy... it probably won't get fixed. Train operators just have to man up and deal with it.. when i first started, i got a lot of practice on those trains being stationed at Lenox all the time having to do car washes and transfers. The when i got on the road, i was always on the  . My arm neck and shoulder used hurt until i got used to it my learning how to hold the controller and being comfortable with my grip!

 

[I Run Trains]

On 2/15/2018 at 8:00 PM, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

 An example or two would be the final approaches into the 77th Street  train station (southbound) and the Pelham Parkway  train station (southbound). It's no surprise to me that yesterday someone chose the Manhattan-bound track at the Fordham Road  train station to end it all. You could easily hit 45 MPH coming into that station if you leave the deadman on parallel.

Timers are not the answer! Stay off the tracks!. There are a lot more spots that are extremely fast! my 12-9 happened at Canal st (south) on the  which is a fast station. 12-9's happens at slow stations to.. i almost had on at Dyckman coming out the Portal and 2 at on different days at Rockaway Av on the  . Respect the tracks. respect the train... stop playing Chicken with trains!

leave Pelham Parkway alone... i have fun barreling into that station! lol.

[Dave2836]

1 hour ago, I Run Trains said:

Timers are not the answer! Stay off the tracks!. There are a lot more spots that are extremely fast! my 12-9 happened at Canal st (south) on the  which is a fast station. 12-9's happens at slow stations to.. i almost had on at Dyckman coming out the Portal and 2 at on different days at Rockaway Av on the  . Respect the tracks. respect the train... stop playing Chicken with trains!

The train always wins.  Fools surfing or jumping over a track between two island plats, kids riding between cars while their so called friends hold the end doors closed...

And then the worst part is trying to calm down five hundred people from wrecking the train track long jumper because it's 3pm and they are trying to pick up THEIR kids from school...

[Jchambers2120]

2 hours ago, I Run Trains said:

Timers are not the answer! Stay off the tracks!. There are a lot more spots that are extremely fast! my 12-9 happened at Canal st (south) on the  which is a fast station. 12-9's happens at slow stations to.. i almost had on at Dyckman coming out the Portal and 2 at on different days at Rockaway Av on the  . Respect the tracks. respect the train... stop playing Chicken with trains!

leave Pelham Parkway alone... i have fun barreling into that station! lol.

I completely agree. I can't think of any worse time than now than to install "unnecessary" timers. (This part may sound insensitive and i apologize) on time performance is already in the toilet, slowing the system down even more because people can't cope with their own mental problems and decide to take their own lives isn't fair to everyone else. I don't know it all nor do i have all the answers, but IMO this isn't it.

Sorry you had to go through it Shondrae. I have a family member who had 2 12-9's and it drove him to alcohol to cope with the mental pain.

[Trainmaster5]

I’m trying to see the correlation between timers and a 12-9. I pounded the road for many years but I don’t recall any mention of timers in a 12-9 investigation. That’s not to say it never happened. I knew a brother who had 3 12-9s and he figured a change of scenery might help. He picked a job on the  and left Dyre. I’m sure you can guess what happened. Some nut job killed her baby. She runs away from the scene, up to the elevated station and commits suicide by jumping in front of his train. My man was so shaken up that they agreed to let him become a Property Protection Agent. He used to tell me that the OT was good as an agent but because he was an outsider with no seniority he’d be sent to Staten Island or Coney Island at some ridiculous reporting times. That’s a far cry from being able to pick your RTO job, days off, and vacation. Last time I saw him he had fallen ill and was going to retire, possibly on disability, because of his job experience. A 12-9 or any other fatality is something that 95% of the workplace folks will never encounter . Police , EMS, or military service people in combat come closest IMO to seeing the deaths up close . Years ago we had a motor instructor who would come to different locations and show us photos taken at the scene of 12-9s. I remember people becoming physically ill after viewing the pictures. IIRC he only came to train yards because the workers there had seniority and many of them had jobs where they never went down the road in passenger service. Maybe the person operating your train has been through a traumatic experience before and that’s why they operate at the speed they do and not like a bat out of hell 👆. Ask an RTO employee in the IRT about the man called “ Rolling Thunder “ . Carry on.

[I Run Trains]

2 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I’m trying to see the correlation between timers and a 12-9. I pounded the road for many years but I don’t recall any mention of timers in a 12-9 investigation. That’s not to say it never happened. I knew a brother who had 3 12-9s and he figured a change of scenery might help. He picked a job on the  and left Dyre. I’m sure you can guess what happened. Some nut job killed her baby. She runs away from the scene, up to the elevated station and commits suicide by jumping in front of his train. My man was so shaken up that they agreed to let him become a Property Protection Agent. He used to tell me that the OT was good as an agent but because he was an outsider with no seniority he’d be sent to Staten Island or Coney Island at some ridiculous reporting times. That’s a far cry from being able to pick your RTO job, days off, and vacation. Last time I saw him he had fallen ill and was going to retire, possibly on disability, because of his job experience. A 12-9 or any other fatality is something that 95% of the workplace folks will never encounter . Police , EMS, or military service people in combat come closest IMO to seeing the deaths up close . Years ago we had a motor instructor who would come to different locations and show us photos taken at the scene of 12-9s. I remember people becoming physically ill after viewing the pictures. IIRC he only came to train yards because the workers there had seniority and many of them had jobs where they never went down the road in passenger service. Maybe the person operating your train has been through a traumatic experience before and that’s why they operate at the speed they do and not like a bat out of hell 👆. Ask an RTO employee in the IRT about the man called “ Rolling Thunder “ . Carry on.

FACTS!!!!! I remember when i was out and they asked me something real stupid! 

Are you ready to come back? NO!

Do you think this will effect ur operation? Um...... I won't know until I'm back behind them controls.. i can't answer that!

With that being said, i operate normal, but still get a scare when these people play chicken with the train.......  and I'm still trying to understand what does timers have to do with a 12-9

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

7 hours ago, I Run Trains said:

They can tell Nothing on a 62. 62's aint no Snitch! LoL heres no computers to tell anything so most of the time they are going to side with the train until the train is brought into the barn for investigation by the Car Inspectors. So they won't know it the train was put in emergency or if the control was let go! On 62's its your word vs what happened!

Now.... I'm trying to understand what you are trying to say because something is not making sense!.... if a timer was passed at danger, it wouldn't have been a 12-9 because the train would have stop as soon as it hit! (i should know! i hit enough timers!)... Contact shoes do not play a part in anything... there is absolutely no contact with the shoe... only the trip!

 

as far as the 62's on the  they are still heavy... it probably won't get fixed. Train operators just have to man up and deal with it.. when i first started, i got a lot of practice on those trains being stationed at Lenox all the time having to do car washes and transfers. The when i got on the road, i was always on the  . My arm neck and shoulder used hurt until i got used to it my learning how to hold the controller and being comfortable with my grip!

 

Theoretically, if someone unfortunately chose to call it quits at a station that had an overhead timer, and they make the decision to jump in front of a train right before the T/O violates the signal, causing a 12–9 in the process, who is to blame? That is exactly what I mean—2 Broadway is going to say "You did not have your train under proper control; hitting that overhead timer in the station caused the 12–9." Referencing overhead timers in stations, passing them at danger increases the probability of a 12–9 occurring because the T/O could have prevented making contact with the victim in this case. It might be a rare scenario, but hitting an overhead timer in a station that leads to a "man under" is going to be hell for that T/O to explain!

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

3 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I’m trying to see the correlation between timers and a 12-9. I pounded the road for many years but I don’t recall any mention of timers in a 12-9 investigation. That’s not to say it never happened. I knew a brother who had 3 12-9s and he figured a change of scenery might help. He picked a job on the  and left Dyre. I’m sure you can guess what happened. Some nut job killed her baby. She runs away from the scene, up to the elevated station and commits suicide by jumping in front of his train. My man was so shaken up that they agreed to let him become a Property Protection Agent. He used to tell me that the OT was good as an agent but because he was an outsider with no seniority he’d be sent to Staten Island or Coney Island at some ridiculous reporting times. That’s a far cry from being able to pick your RTO job, days off, and vacation. Last time I saw him he had fallen ill and was going to retire, possibly on disability, because of his job experience. A 12-9 or any other fatality is something that 95% of the workplace folks will never encounter . Police , EMS, or military service people in combat come closest IMO to seeing the deaths up close . Years ago we had a motor instructor who would come to different locations and show us photos taken at the scene of 12-9s. I remember people becoming physically ill after viewing the pictures. IIRC he only came to train yards because the workers there had seniority and many of them had jobs where they never went down the road in passenger service. Maybe the person operating your train has been through a traumatic experience before and that’s why they operate at the speed they do and not like a bat out of hell 👆. Ask an RTO employee in the IRT about the man called “ Rolling Thunder “ . Carry on.

Did the T/O who switched job titles to Property Protection Agent retire due to his negative experiences while out on the road? I don't blame him, those are things you never forget that wreak havoc on your peace of mind. Hope he's well. Also, I can imagine him being bounced around in the system due to his seniority level at the time causing a lack of stable job picks. Awhile back, I was talking to an ex-motorman by the name of Mr. Simmons who recalled Rolling Thunder during his days working the IRT. The man was down on his luck and took exam #8098 for T/O after being demoted and had like 15 years of experience on the road.

[I Run Trains]

3 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

Theoretically, if someone unfortunately chose to call it quits at a station that had an overhead timer, and they make the decision to jump in front of a train right before the T/O violates the signal, causing a 12–9 in the process, who is to blame? That is exactly what I mean—2 Broadway is going to say "You did not have your train under proper control; hitting that overhead timer in the station caused the 12–9." Referencing overhead timers in stations, passing them at danger increases the probability of a 12–9 occurring because the T/O could have prevented making contact with the victim in this case. It might be a rare scenario, but hitting an overhead timer in a station that leads to a "man under" is going to be hell for that T/O to explain!

dude! you are coming up with a situation that more than likely will never happen! Nobody comes to work and say I'm gonna risk my job and hit a signal then run somebody over!.`most of us train operators know where hooligans are and how they operate and function.  bottom line you are making up a weird situation.

[checkmatechamp13]

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/01/union-slow-down-subway-to-prevent-deaths.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/mta-says-drivers-who-slow-down-are-breaking-the-law-2013-1

In the end, it's true that if T/Os crawl into every station, there's a good chance a certain number of 12-9s would be prevented, but at the same time, the delays on the platform due to overcrowding, and the potential of people giving up and deciding to drive (increasing the risk of accidents on the road), the best way to prevent 12-9s is by keeping people off the tracks. Maybe with platform screen doors, maybe with more police officers on the platforms (to at least keep an eye out for unstable-looking people who might throw themselves or somebody else into the path of an oncoming train), or by some other method.

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

8 hours ago, I Run Trains said:

dude! you are coming up with a situation that more than likely will never happen! Nobody comes to work and say I'm gonna risk my job and hit a signal then run somebody over!.`most of us train operators know where hooligans are and how they operate and function.  bottom line you are making up a weird situation.

Regardless of it being weird, your speed will make or break you down there! You know how it works!

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

4 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/01/union-slow-down-subway-to-prevent-deaths.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/mta-says-drivers-who-slow-down-are-breaking-the-law-2013-1

In the end, it's true that if T/Os crawl into every station, there's a good chance a certain number of 12-9s would be prevented, but at the same time, the delays on the platform due to overcrowding, and the potential of people giving up and deciding to drive (increasing the risk of accidents on the road), the best way to prevent 12-9s is by keeping people off the tracks. Maybe with platform screen doors, maybe with more police officers on the platforms (to at least keep an eye out for unstable-looking people who might throw themselves or somebody else into the path of an oncoming train), or by some other method.

While the MTA broadcasts various public announcements concerning passenger safety, sometimes I question what more could be done. Let's consider platform screen doors for example. They not only prevent an individual from descending into the trackbed, but no one would be able to jump or fall in the path of an incoming train, period. Now, you might say it's highly unlikely they'll be installed throughout the system, and I agree, but isn't safety the number one priority of the MTA? People can rant and rave all they want over missing their transfer to the Bx6 SBS at 161st Street, but is that what people value over a person's life? I hear people saying that they wish the victim didn't end it on their time. Let me address that. What if that was YOUR child, sibling, or parent? We're talking about someone's daughter, sister, even mother. Surely that would change your attitude real quick. I ALWAYS feel empathy for both the victim and T/O whom are involved.

[checkmatechamp13]

20 minutes ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

While the MTA broadcasts various public announcements concerning passenger safety, sometimes I question what more could be done. Let's consider platform screen doors for example. They not only prevent an individual from descending into the trackbed, but no one would be able to jump or fall in the path of an incoming train, period. Now, you might say it's highly unlikely they'll be installed throughout the system, and I agree, but isn't safety the number one priority of the MTA? People can rant and rave all they want over missing their transfer to the Bx6 SBS at 161st Street, but is that what people value over a person's life? I hear people saying that they wish the victim didn't end it on their time. Let me address that. What if that was YOUR child, sibling, or parent? We're talking about someone's daughter, sister, even mother. Surely that would change your attitude real quick. I ALWAYS feel empathy for both the victim and T/O whom are involved.

Right, but that's what I'm saying: There's also an indirect safety risk involved with doing things that slow down trains and decrease throughput.

By both reducing capacity during rush hour, and slowing down trains, that can cause some people to switch to driving even though they would prefer not to. More cars on the road means a higher chance of car-car or car-pedestrian accidents. What if somebody says "I know I'm working a long shift, or an overnight shift where it's hard to stay awake, but I can't be late for work, and this 15 minute increase in travel time (on top of the fact that driving might've already been faster) caused me to decide to switch to driving" (or maybe it increases their risk for an on-the-job accident, because they had to be alert to drive there as opposed to dozing off on the train). If that were a relative of mine, I'd be pretty upset too.

Heck, for that matter, you slow the trains down on a large scale, it makes it that much harder for people to get to work, class, social events. Those also have impacts on people's mental health....

Yes, it's true, I empathize with both the T/O and victim, but at the same time, we have to look at the big picture: Transit overall is much safer than driving: You have a small amount of vehicles operated by professional operators, as opposed to a larger number of vehicles operated by people with lower qualifications. 

[I Run Trains]

1 hour ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

Regardless of it being weird, your speed will make or break you down there! You know how it works!

Ok.. become  train operator, try it and tell me how it goes for you!

[B35 via Church]

The whole timers-to-(12-9) argument is no different than the "speed kills" rhetoric that's put out there for cars, regarding fatality rates & increased speeds.... If you hit someone at 40 mph vs 30 mph, that person has a higher chance of dying (whatever the % difference is), etc. etc..... There used to be a billboard displaying the statistic as you exited off the Gowanus onto the Prospect, atop some bldg. on 4th av (IINM)..... Black & white colored ad.

I'm not out there trying to set speed records, but I'm also not out there thinking about freaking percentage rates of fatality upon hitting somebody either... Shit, I'm not thinking about hitting somebody!!! But when you have situations like these jackass kids in Staten Island horseplaying around in traffic, I don't want to hear any "what if that was YOUR family" type of arguments... Play stupid ass games, win stupid ass prizes.

I don't drive or operate heavy machinery for a living, but regardless, Layzie Bone said it best... "Scared money don't make no money".

I'm with Shondrae on this one... Stay the f*** off the tracks.

 

[bobtehpanda]

7 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The whole timers-to-(12-9) argument is no different than the "speed kills" rhetoric that's put out there for cars, regarding fatality rates & increased speeds.... If you hit someone at 40 mph vs 30 mph, that person has a higher chance of dying (whatever the % difference is), etc. etc..... There used to be a billboard displaying the statistic as you exited off the Gowanus onto the Prospect, atop some bldg. on 4th av (IINM)..... Black & white colored ad.

I'm not out there trying to set speed records, but I'm also not out there thinking about freaking percentage rates of fatality upon hitting somebody either... Shit, I'm not thinking about hitting somebody!!! But when you have situations like these jackass kids in Staten Island horseplaying around in traffic, I don't want to hear any "what if that was YOUR family" type of arguments... Play stupid ass games, win stupid ass prizes.

I don't drive or operate heavy machinery for a living, but regardless, Layzie Bone said it best... "Scared money don't make no money".

I'm with Shondrae on this one... Stay the f*** off the tracks.

 

I think the main distinction to make is that there are a lot of inattentive idiots on the road who are the primary reason why we even talk about the percentages in the first place (I'm talking looking at themselves in the mirror, or at their phone, or the kind of jackass that blows through a red or a two-way stop because "no one was there", etc.)

T/Os are trained professionals so they don't need to be babied like that with lower speed limits.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

I think the main distinction to make is that there are a lot of inattentive idiots on the road who are the primary reason why we even talk about the percentages in the first place (I'm talking looking at themselves in the mirror, or at their phone, or the kind of jackass that blows through a red or a two-way stop because "no one was there", etc.)

T/Os are trained professionals so they don't need to be babied like that with lower speed limits.

Nobody's excusing irresponsible drivers here, but the arguing down of timers (as if 12-9's are happening because T/O's are going too fast & pedestrians aren't looking both ways before crossing the tracks that they're not supposed to be on in the first place) is an implausible argument to want to make, no matter how its sliced....

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

I agree with the perspectives everyone on here has posed, especially keeping all unauthorized persons off the tracks. The T/O's are specifically trained to embrace a mentality of safety before anything else in schoolcar. Passengers are the variable here. You all are correct; mobile phones have become devices that increase the likelyhood of a fatal accident in this day and age.

[I Run Trains]

44 minutes ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

I agree with the perspectives everyone on here has posed, especially keeping all unauthorized persons off the tracks. The T/O's are specifically trained to embrace a mentality of safety before anything else in schoolcar. Passengers are the variable here. You all are correct; mobile phones have become devices that increase the likelyhood of a fatal accident in this day and age.

Are you, or have you been a train operator?? Just curious!

 On the flip side. a train can move slow at 10 mph into a station and people have still died! some people have jump toward the train into the running rail!.  and if they don't die then, they die a slow death.. thats just the reality of it!

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

13 minutes ago, I Run Trains said:

Are you, or have you been a train operator?? Just curious!

 On the flip side. a train can move slow at 10 mph into a station and people have still died! some people have jump toward the train into the running rail!.  and if they don't die then, they die a slow death.. thats just the reality of it!

Nope, not a Train Operator. I'm on the waiting lists for a few MTA exams: 4 Bus Operator exams and 1 Track Worker exam. I have been interested in trains for awhile and wanted to become a Conductor first, then take the promotional exam to become a Train Operator, but missed the application deadline to file for Conductor Exam #6601. Hopefully I get in as B/O or a T/W.

[checkmatechamp13]

Another thing to consider is what about situations like the  skip-stop service, or the SIR express service, where the trains come flying through on the track adjacent to the platform? (And for that matter, many commuter rail lines with express service).

14 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The whole timers-to-(12-9) argument is no different than the "speed kills" rhetoric that's put out there for cars, regarding fatality rates & increased speeds.... If you hit someone at 40 mph vs 30 mph, that person has a higher chance of dying (whatever the % difference is), etc. etc..... There used to be a billboard displaying the statistic as you exited off the Gowanus onto the Prospect, atop some bldg. on 4th av (IINM)..... Black & white colored ad.

I'm not out there trying to set speed records, but I'm also not out there thinking about freaking percentage rates of fatality upon hitting somebody either... Shit, I'm not thinking about hitting somebody!!! But when you have situations like these jackass kids in Staten Island horseplaying around in traffic, I don't want to hear any "what if that was YOUR family" type of arguments... Play stupid ass games, win stupid ass prizes.

I don't drive or operate heavy machinery for a living, but regardless, Layzie Bone said it best... "Scared money don't make no money".

I'm with Shondrae on this one... Stay the f*** off the tracks.

2

The thing with pedestrians is that (especially in NYC), at least drivers have a reasonable expectation that there could be pedestrians jaywalking (e.g. Running for a bus on a wide street like Atlantic Avenue, Woodhaven Blvd, Grand Concourse, etc). Yes, it's true the pedestrians should jaywalk responsibly and not just blindly dart into traffic, but at the same time, it's something a vehicle driver should be aware of. By contrast, a T/O is under the expectation that there will be nobody on the track (with the exception of track workers that are trained on proper safety procedures and the T/O has most likely been informed of their presence). 

[Porter]

16 hours ago, AlgorithmOfTruth said:

What if that was YOUR child, sibling, or parent? We're talking about someone's daughter, sister, even mother. Surely that would change your attitude real quick. I ALWAYS feel empathy for both the victim and T/O whom are involved.

My whole family could be pushed onto the tracks and I would still have the capacity to empathize with the hundreds of people whose commute was delayed.

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The thing with pedestrians is that (especially in NYC), at least drivers have a reasonable expectation that there could be pedestrians jaywalking (e.g. Running for a bus on a wide street like Atlantic Avenue, Woodhaven Blvd, Grand Concourse, etc). Yes, it's true the pedestrians should jaywalk responsibly and not just blindly dart into traffic, but at the same time, it's something a vehicle driver should be aware of. By contrast, a T/O is under the expectation that there will be nobody on the track (with the exception of track workers that are trained on proper safety procedures and the T/O has most likely been informed of their presence). 

You & BobPanda are making the same general point/distinction.....

My point is more, an irresponsible pedestrian (jaywalking or otherwise crossing a street) is an irresponsible pedestrian (being on the tracks in the first place).... For me, to hear about percentages (of death via getting hit by a car at some rate of speed) & increased timers in the subway system to me are complete slaps in the face..... Yes, you have more ignorant/irresponsible drivers than you do Robert Ray's.... Yes, of course there's differences in expectations b/w a motorist & a motorman....

I don't want to continue beating a dead horse here (since Algorithm of Truth came to an eventual concurrence) but I got the sense that he was bringing up timers basically to blame T/O's for 12-9's....

[AlgorithmOfTruth]

I really do appreciate everyone's feedback and perspectives concerning the overall safety of passengers and T/O's. @B35 via Church, if I came across as if I were formulating a justification to penalize T/O's I apologize; my intent was to discuss a rare scenario where misopersting a train could result in devastating consequences. The notion that T/O's are highly-trained professionals compared alongside traditional motorists is crystal—T/O's require a rigorous education and must possess the manual dexterity to succeed at successfully becoming a motorman, which is undoubtedly more difficult than passing a standard motorist's road test. The aging infrastructure that currently keeps our subways system running, e.g., timed signals, are frequently neglected to a state of malfunction, and way too often, T/O's are almost always held accountable in the analyses conducted by management. Rather not add more timers to slow the system down further, but correct the irrational and rather robotic levels of standard that management expects out of human beings.