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New York City bus operating costs: an analysis


Via Garibaldi 8

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10 hours ago, aemoreira81 said:

I would say that perhaps in the outer boroughs, perhaps stops should be lengthened to every 750-1000 feet, unless there is something locally present that makes such not viable.

 

That generally makes sense (that's approximately 5-7 stops per mile, which is a stop every 3-4 city blocks). The only thing to consider is that when there's hills, stops should be placed a little bit closer.

2 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I don't think getting a ride for free verses paying for it is a novelty. Ridership went down because of unreliability, bus slowness and increased traffic congestion. I also think that bus lanes, bike lanes, increased construction, and lower speed limits all contributed to increased traffic congestion and the lack of bus lane enforcement contributed to decreases in bus speeds. Also, as times goes by, stagnant bus routes make them less useful. Increased illegal liveries competing with buses, more people cycling, people walking more to keep fit, all contributed to lower bus ridership. Even Bus Time lowers ridership. If you know beforehand that a bus is 45 minutes away, why bother wait for it when you walk there faster? I really don't know to what degree it increased ridership. If someone was going to drive, would knowing a bus is two minutes away get him to change his mind? I doubt that it would. 

It depends. If you're in that territory where it may be reasonable to take a bus to the subway, but it's not unreasonable to walk it (say, in the East 20s headed to the Brighton Line), then your limit for unreliability/long waits (as far as causing you to walk) is a lot less, compared to somebody living east of Nostrand Avenue.

As far as BusTime goes, I'd say generally information availability increases ridership. If you know for a fact that the next bus is 45 minutes away, you may decide to just stay at the office for another 45 minutes (even if you're not on the clock, at least you're protected from the elements), as opposed to just giving up and resorting to another mode (walking, getting a lift, driving, subway, etc) as your default method. Also, in general, people have some type of alternate bus or subway route. So if you see the bus is 45 minutes away, you know to use your alternate route, as opposed to not having the information, and giving up on bus service altogether.

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12 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

That generally makes sense (that's approximately 5-7 stops per mile, which is a stop every 3-4 city blocks). The only thing to consider is that when there's hills, stops should be placed a little bit closer.

It depends. If you're in that territory where it may be reasonable to take a bus to the subway, but it's not unreasonable to walk it (say, in the East 20s headed to the Brighton Line), then your limit for unreliability/long waits (as far as causing you to walk) is a lot less, compared to somebody living east of Nostrand Avenue.

As far as BusTime goes, I'd say generally information availability increases ridership. If you know for a fact that the next bus is 45 minutes away, you may decide to just stay at the office for another 45 minutes (even if you're not on the clock, at least you're protected from the elements), as opposed to just giving up and resorting to another mode (walking, getting a lift, driving, subway, etc) as your default method. Also, in general, people have some type of alternate bus or subway route. So if you see the bus is 45 minutes away, you know to use your alternate route, as opposed to not having the information, and giving up on bus service altogether.

But sometimes your only alternative is to walk or jump into a dollar van if you see one. BusTime is good if you are planning your trip from indoors. But it does have its limitations. If you are near a terminal, you can't get a true wait time. You will not know that the bus is two minutes from the terminal in the opposite direction or will it tell you how long the layover will be.  Also, it isn't helpful  when you are transferring and waiting for the second bus. What if there is a 45 minute wait and no store to jump into? I have had two recent incidents when BusTime told me the bus was 30 or 45 minutes away and one showed up in five minutes. In both cases I started walking and one time I caught the bus at the next stop. The other time I wasn't so lucky. When I complained to the driver, he said that of all people I should know better than to believe the MTA. Guess he knew me.

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18 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

...As far as BusTime goes, I'd say generally information availability increases ridership. If you know for a fact that the next bus is 45 minutes away, you may decide to just stay at the office for another 45 minutes (even if you're not on the clock, at least you're protected from the elements), as opposed to just giving up and resorting to another mode (walking, getting a lift, driving, subway, etc) as your default method. Also, in general, people have some type of alternate bus or subway route. So if you see the bus is 45 minutes away, you know to use your alternate route, as opposed to not having the information, and giving up on bus service altogether.

6 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

But sometimes your only alternative is to walk or jump into a dollar van if you see one. BusTime is good if you are planning your trip from indoors. But it does have its limitations. If you are near a terminal, you can't get a true wait time. You will not know that the bus is two minutes from the terminal in the opposite direction or will it tell you how long the layover will be.  Also, it isn't helpful  when you are transferring and waiting for the second bus. What if there is a 45 minute wait and no store to jump into? I have had two recent incidents when BusTime told me the bus was 30 or 45 minutes away and one showed up in five minutes. In both cases I started walking and one time I caught the bus at the next stop. The other time I wasn't so lucky. When I complained to the driver, he said that of all people I should know better than to believe the MTA. Guess he knew me.

What the 2 of you are talking about here is why I never bothered to actually plan a commute around these technological advances.. I would rather not know when a bus is actually set to arrive, than to be told (or in this case, indicated) that a bus is coming 'x' amount of minutes & that bus is nowhere in sight well after that indicated/posted time has passed.... That sort of thing angers me to no end....

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6 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

What the 2 of you are talking about here is why I never bothered to actually plan a commute around these technological advances.. I would rather not know when a bus is actually set to arrive, than to be told (or in this case, indicated) that a bus is coming 'x' amount of minutes & that bus is nowhere in sight well after that indicated/posted time has passed.... That sort of thing angers me to no end....

This.

Went to Target at SI Mall yesterday evening. BusTime said the next S44 was 45 minutes away at Richmond and Yukon - no reason to doubt it since SI buses are so unreliable. So I go into Five Guys.

They give me my fries in 5 minutes of entry - A FIRST. As I'm walking out, I see a S44 at the light for the driveway to Target. BusTime website still says 45 minutes til the next one.

Guess who had to run with his fries and three bags to the bus stop?

Then all the BusTime issues I had with S42/52 in getting to the ferry before it leaves...and now the same issue with S40/44 to the ferry...

The tech would be great if it was reliable.

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4 hours ago, Deucey said:

This.

Went to Target at SI Mall yesterday evening. BusTime said the next S44 was 45 minutes away at Richmond and Yukon - no reason to doubt it since SI buses are so unreliable. So I go into Five Guys.

They give me my fries in 5 minutes of entry - A FIRST. As I'm walking out, I see a S44 at the light for the driveway to Target. BusTime website still says 45 minutes til the next one.

Guess who had to run with his fries and three bags to the bus stop?

Then all the BusTime issues I had with S42/52 in getting to the ferry before it leaves...and now the same issue with S40/44 to the ferry...

The tech would be great if it was reliable.

You can never used BusTime for terminals because often times the next bus will be there but will be shut down so it won't register until it is literally at the stop.

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10 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You can never used BusTime for terminals because often times the next bus will be there but will be shut down so it won't register until it is literally at the stop.

That’s true, but on the run back to the ferry, there are two other stops prior to Richmond & Yukon - where I was waiting. As soon as she started her run, the transponder should’ve been on and registering on the SMS and website well before she got to the Target driveway.

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21 minutes ago, Deucey said:

That’s true, but on the run back to the ferry, there are two other stops prior to Richmond & Yukon - where I was waiting. As soon as she started her run, the transponder should’ve been on and registering on the SMS and website well before she got to the Target driveway.

I agree, but unfortunately that may not happen for a number of reasons.  On some buses, the tracking device is delayed. In other cases, the B/O may not have input the correct information.  I'm in your situation a lot, particularly with the BxM2.  I often get it at the first stop (6th and 35th) if I've done shopping Downtown or if I stop at Whole Foods by Bryant Park. One thing I've become good at is seeing which bus will be which and comparing that to the schedule.  In my case, there's only going to be a few buses on the road, so it's easier.  I've got it down almost to an art.  I wait inside a store or wherever, come out right as the bus is due or a minute or so before and I'll also see if people are already waiting since I can usually see the bus stop from wherever I'm at. If there are people there then I know I can just cross the street whenever the bus comes and get on.  In my case, it's become almost necessary.  Too many beggars and weirdos. Now you even have people just waiting at the stop pretending they are getting on when they aren't.  Either that or they wait at any bus stop thinking that stop is their stop for the bus that they want.

In your case, I would go to the stop a few minutes before the bus is due since SI buses in general are known to run hot.  If you check BusTime and you don't see tons of bunching then you know your bus will likely be there unless the B/O is BS-ing around; that and I also have the schedule down pretty good more or less, particularly on weekends.  Usually during the winter months, buses tend to be right on time unless it is rush hour. The colder it is, the fewer people are out and about.

Oh, and one other thing I strongly recommend. Use the desktop version of BusTime. I see people scanning their phones next to the bar code at the stop, and I'm like Jesus that is so dated.  I want as close to the real time information as possible, and BusTime in the desktop mode works best. I even will put my laptop on in the morning with the route I plan on taking so I can just take a quick look and see how buses are running. If they're really delayed, I can immediately change up my commute.

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18 hours ago, Deucey said:

This.

Went to Target at SI Mall yesterday evening. BusTime said the next S44 was 45 minutes away at Richmond and Yukon - no reason to doubt it since SI buses are so unreliable. So I go into Five Guys.

They give me my fries in 5 minutes of entry - A FIRST. As I'm walking out, I see a S44 at the light for the driveway to Target. BusTime website still says 45 minutes til the next one.

Guess who had to run with his fries and three bags to the bus stop?

Then all the BusTime issues I had with S42/52 in getting to the ferry before it leaves...and now the same issue with S40/44 to the ferry...

The tech would be great if it was reliable.

Sounds to me like BusTime isn't functioning on some buses so a bus shows up way before you think it is going to come according to bus time. They better get their act together or people wil just stop relying on it and it will become useless just like few rely on the schedules anymore. If that happens, all the money invested will have been wasted. 

 

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1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

Sounds to me like BusTime isn't functioning on some buses so a bus shows up way before you think it is going to come according to bus time. They better get their act together or people wil just stop relying on it and it will become useless just like few rely on the schedules anymore. If that happens, all the money invested will have been wasted. 

 

Schedules???

Yeah, made that mistake tonight dealing with S52/42. Expecting either to arrive at Jersey St/Brighton Av at 7:15 since the updated schedule - EFFECTIVE YESTERDAY - said that I’d be at Hamilton/Westervelt (ie my house) at 7:17, nothing showed up til 7:30.

I’m thinking that they should adjust performance criteria on SI to be whether the bus arrives on time to the ferry, since quite a few folks missed the 7pm and 7:30 boats messing around relying on the 52/42 combo.

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4 hours ago, Deucey said:

Schedules???

Yeah, made that mistake tonight dealing with S52/42. Expecting either to arrive at Jersey St/Brighton Av at 7:15 since the updated schedule - EFFECTIVE YESTERDAY - said that I’d be at Hamilton/Westervelt (ie my house) at 7:17, nothing showed up til 7:30.

I’m thinking that they should adjust performance criteria on SI to be whether the bus arrives on time to the ferry, since quite a few folks missed the 7pm and 7:30 boats messing around relying on the 52/42 combo.

That's a little surprising considering the S42 is such a short route, it's hard for it to be delayed that much. The S52, with all the turns and stops and hills, if you have a slow driver, you can easily miss the ferry, but with the S42, the only way I could think of it being that badly delayed is if something happened on an earlier interline (since a lot of trips come in as an S52 and leave as an S42 or vice versa)

Not doubting you at all, but it's just strange to see the S42 have that issue. Hopefully it won't be an issue for the whole pick.

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6 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

That's a little surprising considering the S42 is such a short route, it's hard for it to be delayed that much. The S52, with all the turns and stops and hills, if you have a slow driver, you can easily miss the ferry, but with the S42, the only way I could think of it being that badly delayed is if something happened on an earlier interline (since a lot of trips come in as an S52 and leave as an S42 or vice versa)

Not doubting you at all, but it's just strange to see the S42 have that issue. Hopefully it won't be an issue for the whole pick.

I stopped relying on S52/42 getting me to the ferry 2.5 years ago - because every time I do I miss the damn boat.

So I either walk to the terminal or I get on S40/44 - although they’re turning into s52 as far as reliability goes.

Last night I was just going to Family Dollar, and it was dark so I bussed it over. 15 minutes in and out, and not a single 52 or 42 on the way despite the schedule saying otherwise.

So I give up.

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1 hour ago, Deucey said:

I stopped relying on S52/42 getting me to the ferry 2.5 years ago - because every time I do I miss the damn boat.

So I either walk to the terminal or I get on S40/44 - although they’re turning into s52 as far as reliability goes.

Last night I was just going to Family Dollar, and it was dark so I bussed it over. 15 minutes in and out, and not a single 52 or 42 on the way despite the schedule saying otherwise.

So I give up.

Ah the local buses on Staten Island... It's nice to know that they still run like crap...

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