MTA Records Largest Single-Year Ridership Decline in 15 Years

[BrooklynBus]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I still don't understand what makes you so certain that extending this routes west will mean more ridership. I personally don't see it.  

It would transfer at least to the B68 giving it more riders. If it went further along 65 Street, it would transfer to the B6 and B8 and B16 as well making it assessable to many portions of Brooklyn. When people decide to apply for jobs, the first thing they think of is transportation. If three buses are required, they will just not even consider that job. More convenient travel also means visiting relatives more often or going to favorite restaurants more often, etc. If you can encourage enough new travel to pay for the added costs is another question. Also, new ridership does not develop overnight but over time. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, BrooklynBus said:

It would transfer at least to the B68 giving it more riders. If it went further along 65 Street, it would transfer to the B6 and B8 and B16 as well making it assessable to many portions of Brooklyn. When people decide to apply for jobs, the first thing they think of is transportation. If three buses are required, they will just not even consider that job. More convenient travel also means visiting relatives more often or going to favorite restaurants more often, etc. If you can encourage enough new travel to pay for the added costs is another question. Also, new ridership does not develop overnight but over time. 

Of course, but in this case, I don't see such a demand for an extension.

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Of course, but in this case, I don't see such a demand for an extension.

How would you know? Did you do any type of study or know of any that were done? 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

32 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

How would you know? Did you do any type of study or know of any that were done? 

That's what I'd like to hear from you since you're the one proposing the extensions. 

[BreeddekalbL]

And dont forget the politics of them changing the bus routes in the name of vision zero

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's what I'd like to hear from you since you're the one proposing the extensions. 

You asked me why I thought ridership would increase because of extensions. I gave you a list of reasons and you replied "of course" meaning they would ride for the reasons I mentioned. Then you added that you didn't think it applies in this case. So I asked you if you had any proof that it wouldn't apply and you responded by asking me for proof it would apply. So if you still disagree, what was the reason you said "of course? Guess you never heard of "if you build it they will come." 

Supermarkets do market studies to determine if a new location is warranted. If the MTA were in the supermarket business and were asked to locate a new one somewhere, their response would be we can't open up one there because no one is shopping there now. Of course no one is shopping there because there is no supermarket there. Similarly people may not be traveling somewhere because there is no convenient way to get there. 

[BrooklynBus]

32 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

And dont forget the politics of them changing the bus routes in the name of vision zero

Don't follow.

[checkmatechamp13]

11 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

I wouldn’t suggest splitting routes. I would suggest short turns more. If routes have been merged in the past 20 years you can’t just split them like that because demographics might have changed since then. So people might rely on that route. 

If both halves of the route are frequent and reliable, transferring isn't an issue for those that need to do so. The other thing is that as BrooklynBus mentioned, if you have some overlap, that furfurther reduces the amount of people who need to transfer.

Personally, I would have the B2/100 operate as a single route through Marine Park, but keep the branches to Kings Plaza and Mill Basin respectively. Then I would extend the combined route to Coney Island via the B82 route. Meanwhile the B82 would be cut back to either Coney Island Avenue or East 16th Street.

This way, riders from the western portion still keep their connections to the B41/Q35, B46, and B47 if they need them, and the route still serves the general Flatlands area (albeit further south than the B82). And of course riders can still transfer at East 16th Street if they want.

Also I would keep limited-stop service on both portions.

9 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

1. Hmm which one am I referring to? 

2.  I'm not implying anything.  I simply gave examples of routes that were too long and were a disaster.  Route extensions can work on a case-by-case basis, but that doesn't mean that an extension is needed simply because ridership is lost.  If the route is losing ridership, it would make sense to understand why before immediately extending the route.  

1. I don't know, I don't read minds. The current B61 is fairly reliable, and the old B61 was unreliable, but around for many years.

2. So we're in agreement on that point. I don't think BrooklynBus is saying we should blindly extend short routes to boost ridership, though.

7 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

3. Reorganize the network by looking at your most heavily used limited routes and turn them into SBS routes which cost more to operate and may have greater fare evasion rates so paid ridership will continue to drop further. Don't investigate if any other routes need to be changed or if the SBS should connect new neighborhoods because that would require public hearings and may jeopardize you from jamming the route down the public' throat. Forget about origin an destination data because that is just too much work and may show a need to increase bus service and since we lose money on every new mile provided, let's give them a few new dinky 30 minute shuttles to give the appearance we care about about service when our objective really is to provide the least amount of service we can get away with politically so that Uber and dollar vans can fill the gap.

3. According to them, SBS reduces fare evasion so you can't say that definitively. Also, as part of the Bx41 SBS, they restructured the Bx15 and also tweaked the Bx36/40/42 (though the street alignments/directions were changed as part of the project so they didn't have much of a choice)

7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I still don't understand what makes you so certain that extending this routes west will mean more ridership. I personally don't see it.  

If nothing else, it would create a ridership base west of the that would be attributed to the B2 or B31, thus increasing ridership on those routes. But I do agree that there is some degree of latent ridership from Marine Park/Gerritsen Beach that would be obtained by extending those routes west.

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The B12 I'd also put in that category with the B1 (route length-wise; for the amt. of riders is carries).... Robust, would be a good word to use here.

I get the point you're making & the B1 example is one that I often used on these forums (as being a/being the quintessential route)... However, I don't think we have too many superroutes & dinky shuttles (yet)... I actually think we have a good amount of (I suppose what you'd call) intermediate routes in the network - the problem is that, for whatever their particular/individual reasons, you have as many of these routes that aren't akin to a route like the B1.....

If the Bx8 was a route that ran to Parkchester, I seriously doubt any concerns would have been raised about too many buses.... Funny how you didn't hear a peep out of them before the Bx14 cuts..... They weren't (and still aren't) going to be satisfied until "their" route was going to have service restored to Parkchester again.....

NIMBY's, generally speaking, don't want the buses to begin with, so that's something else altogether.... I'm referring to the people that want bus service, that you'll never really hear about service being too plentiful.....

I remember an interesting proposal either here or on RD that involes having the Bx8 split to run Locust Point-Parkchester via Westchester Square and Williamsbridge-Westchester Square (not sure if he had it running further north than Williamsbridge). Is Parkchester a big shopping destination from all of the SE Bronx or it's really just Country Club that wants it?

And true, I don't think I've heard riders complain about too much service in general, but you'll sometimes hear it with the idea of "Why can't my route be more like that?" (For example, SI express  riders complaining about why the X1 gets all the service it does)

34 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

And dont forget the politics of them changing the bus routes in the name of vision zero

When did they do that? They had the B/Os drive slower but they didn't change the actual routes (aside from a few instances like the B36 by Sheepshead Bay)

[trainfan22]

4 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The day it was crushloaded, how late was it? I often used it as a kid on Saturdays and Sundays and they only ran two buses and I never saw more than a handful of riders on them. By the time we got to the pier, there only were about two or three other passengers left. 

IDK as I was planning walking to the  station and only hopped on because the bus was there.. it uses 3 buses during the day on Saturday. Its funny as its common for at least two of those buses to be bunched together whenever I see the B42 on Saturdays, two of them was bunched together on super bowl Sunday too.

[BrooklynBus]

55 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

If both halves of the route are frequent and reliable, transferring isn't an issue for those that need to do so. The other thing is that as BrooklynBus mentioned, if you have some overlap, that furfurther reduces the amount of people who need to transfer.

Personally, I would have the B2/100 operate as a single route through Marine Park, but keep the branches to Kings Plaza and Mill Basin respectively. Then I would extend the combined route to Coney Island via the B82 route. Meanwhile the B82 would be cut back to either Coney Island Avenue or East 16th Street.

This way, riders from the western portion still keep their connections to the B41/Q35, B46, and B47 if they need them, and the route still serves the general Flatlands area (albeit further south than the B82). And of course riders can still transfer at East 16th Street if they want. 

We think alike. When I said extend along 65th Street, I should also have said or Bay Parkway because I believe I once proposed that also in one of my Sheepsheadbites article, by splitting the B82. I also suggested combining the B2 and B100. Cutting the B82 back to CIA makes more sense than E16 St. 

Also, you stated that the MTA claims SBS reduces fare evasion. Did they release any statistics? How do we know they are telling the truth? Remember when they insisted fare evasion on regular routes was acceptable within industry standards of 3 percent, then did a retraction after a Daily News exposé that it really was 14 percent so they increased enforcement.

They also claim SBS increases ridership when it doesn't on most routes according to the comptroller. Until they release statistics to prove what they are claiming, there is no reason to believe that fare evasion is lower for SBS. 

[BrooklynBus]

6 minutes ago, trainfan22 said:

IDK as I was planning walking to the  station and only hopped on because the bus was there.. it uses 3 buses during the day on Saturday. Its funny as its common for at least two of those buses to be bunched together whenever I see the B42 on Saturdays, two of them was bunched together on super bowl Sunday too.

You saw recent News 12 B42 story I presume. 

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

When I was speaking about feeder routes, I was talking about short routes where like  at least 75 percent of the riders are bound for the subway and the route only transfers to like two or three other routes. The Queens feeders do not fall into that category because although many are going to the subway during rush hour, they make numerous connections and are used throughout the day for a number of other purposes to get across the borough. I would bet that during the day half the riders are not going or coming from the subway. That can't be said about routes like  the B2 and B31. 

Also, please remember that I created the B1 one Saturday morning while lying in bed when it hit me. Before then I was simply thinking of running it from 86 Street and Fourth Avenue and combining the remainder of the B34 and the very old B1 through Sheepshead Bay as the B86. If I didn't do that, the most the MTA would have done on their own would have been to combine the B34 with the B1 with every other bus still terminating at 25 Avenue and 20 minute service the rest of the way as the B1 has at that time. It never would have been as successful as operating it on Ocean Parkway incorporating the B21 as I did. 

Alright.

Reading your prior posts regarding feeder routes though, it is as if you're unfairly concluding that they're all dinky shuttles (as I like to call them).... Every feeder route isn't a dinky shuttle (which you've just acknowledged) & that's the common misconception I wanted to bring to light & address....

As far as the B1, from me, you get all the credit in the world for having came up with it.

7 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Supermarkets do market studies to determine if a new location is warranted. If the MTA were in the supermarket business and were asked to locate a new one somewhere, their response would be we can't open up one there because no one is shopping there now. Of course no one is shopping there because there is no supermarket there. Similarly people may not be traveling somewhere because there is no convenient way to get there. 

The MTA has never been competent at addressing latent demand.... If the MTA owned establishments such as Whole foods for example, there is no way in hell there would be as many of them as there are in Manhattan....

7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

If both halves of the route are frequent and reliable, transferring isn't an issue for those that need to do so. The other thing is that as BrooklynBus mentioned, if you have some overlap, that furfurther reduces the amount of people who need to transfer.

Personally, I would have the B2/100 operate as a single route through Marine Park, but keep the branches to Kings Plaza and Mill Basin respectively. Then I would extend the combined route to Coney Island via the B82 route. Meanwhile the B82 would be cut back to either Coney Island Avenue or East 16th Street.

This way, riders from the western portion still keep their connections to the B41/Q35, B46, and B47 if they need them, and the route still serves the general Flatlands area (albeit further south than the B82). And of course riders can still transfer at East 16th Street if they want.

The longer the route, the more xfer opportunities it presents, the more riders it garners, the more successful it is (or is said to be).... It's a slippery slope; never subscribed to that mindset....

Much of no one is riding the B82 from SE Brooklyn to SW Brooklyn (that disgruntled, adolescent hating nutcase ShortlineBus used to stay defending the B82's existence from end to end b/c of the few nannies that would ride from Canarsie to Bensonhurst/Bath Beach) & there is a mutual point that riders from both ends of the route are generally trying to reach... You're not going to get too many riders from Spring Creek or Canarsie riding past CI av & too many riders from Coney Island or Bensonhurst/Bath Beach riding past Flatlands (the neighborhood).....

I think you know/remember how I would break up the B82, so I won't regurgitate it right this second.... I'm not a proponent of combining those 2 routes (B2/B100) though....

6 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

You saw recent News 12 B42 story I presume. 

What did it entail?

[BrooklynBus]

5 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

As far as the B1, from me, you get all the credit in the world for having came up with it.

(B42 news story)

What did it entail?

Thank you. I  just wish they also would have corrected the north south problems as well instead of doing the flip flop which was the first alternative I eliminated because of the extra travel time to the R for Bath Avenue riders and there were considerable number of riders doing that. But that was before the B8 was extended to 95 Street. 

The B42 story showed that the MTA isn't even capable of operating short routes correctly. Obviously there was no supervision at all this on the route. The MTA probably responded by placing supervision there temporarily until passengers on some other route complains. You don't improve reliability by just putting out fires. 

http://brooklyn.news12.com/story/37269839/commuters-demand-mta-get-b24-bus-back-on-schedule?fb_action_ids=1933160406711901&fb_action_types=og.comments

[JeremiahC99]

On 2/15/2018 at 10:06 AM, BrooklynBus said:

Thank you. I  just wish they also would have corrected the north south problems as well instead of doing the flip flop which was the first alternative I eliminated because of the extra travel time to the R for Bath Avenue riders and there were considerable number of riders doing that. But that was before the B8 was extended to 95 Street. 

I read on this site about bus proposals (http://brooklynbus.tripod.com/), and Proposal H said that they were going to combine the B64 and B70 into a new route called the B66, so riders could have access the R train at 95th Street. Would that have been a great idea in the present?

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I read on this site about bus proposals (http://brooklynbus.tripod.com/), and Proposal H said that they were going to combine the B64 and B70 into a new route called the B66, so riders could have access the R train at 95th Street. Would that have been a great idea in the present?

That site is proposals I made twelve years ago. Back in 1975, I proposed to route the B64 on Bath to 18th Avenue to Cropsey to 14th Ave to Poly Place up 7 Av. West on 86 Street with terminus there and return on 4th Avenue to 92 Street south on 7th and around the golf course back to Cropsey.

Another idea could be to send the B64 over the bridge to Staten Island. 

Either idea would work today. But since the B8 now goes to 95 Street, if the B64 were moved to Cropsey west of 18 Avenue and extended to 95 Street, every other B8 could be cut back to 86 Street. 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 2/14/2018 at 7:51 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

I remember an interesting proposal either here or on RD that involes having the Bx8 split to run Locust Point-Parkchester via Westchester Square and Williamsbridge-Westchester Square (not sure if he had it running further north than Williamsbridge). Is Parkchester a big shopping destination from all of the SE Bronx or it's really just Country Club that wants it?

 

That would basically restore the pre-1989 Bx8 (Williamsbridge Road) and Bx23 (Crosby Avenue).

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 2/13/2018 at 3:38 PM, BrooklynBus said:

When I started at the MTA as Director of Bus Planning, the MTA was about to release its 1981 Brooklyn Bus Map which was the first one to add neighborhoods and points of interest. It was scheduled to go to the printer the next morning. I immediately told my boss to hold the presses. I was there until 10 PM finding and correcting 96 errors. There were a many bus route errors but most had to do with other things. I remember they had Brooklyn Botanic Garden as Brooklyn Botanical Gardens and showed it where the zoo is and the zoo where the garden was. I wish I could remember some of the other errors. What an embarrassment if it went out like that. Only six errors managed to get through that I found later. Do you think they even cared or said good work? No, they couldn't care less. 

 

Are you still hitting everyone over the head with a job that you held for only a few months almost 40 years ago?

[JeremiahC99]

19 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

That site is proposals I made twelve years ago. Back in 1975, I proposed to route the B64 on Bath to 18th Avenue to Cropsey to 14th Ave to Poly Place up 7 Av. West on 86 Street with terminus there and return on 4th Avenue to 92 Street south on 7th and around the golf course back to Cropsey.

Another idea could be to send the B64 over the bridge to Staten Island. 

Either idea would work today. But since the B8 now goes to 95 Street, if the B64 were moved to Cropsey west of 18 Avenue and extended to 95 Street, every other B8 could be cut back to 86 Street. 

Either idea is excellent. In fact, all of the proposals from 12 years ago are excellent.

 Would you think that the B64 plan over the bridge to Staten Island could terminate at the College of Staten Island in Willowbrook or would that be too long?

Also, what ideas would you propose to have buses serve Canarsie Plaza?

[B35 via Church]

On 2/14/2018 at 7:51 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

I remember an interesting proposal either here or on RD that involes having the Bx8 split to run Locust Point-Parkchester via Westchester Square and Williamsbridge-Westchester Square (not sure if he had it running further north than Williamsbridge). Is Parkchester a big shopping destination from all of the SE Bronx or it's really just Country Club that wants it?

And true, I don't think I've heard riders complain about too much service in general, but you'll sometimes hear it with the idea of "Why can't my route be more like that?" (For example, SI express  riders complaining about why the X1 gets all the service it does)

BM5 via Woodhaven had an idea around the summer time of last year that involved splitting the Bx8, but I don't remember what it entailed....

Don't know why I didn't see this the first go 'round, but to give a comparison, as shopping destinations, Parkchester is to the Bronx is what Fresh Meadows is to Queens (on a little bigger scale, but not by much)... Neither of which are quite Forest Hills (commercial Austin st), which simply has a bigger draw from city residents outside of all of Queens.....

But yeah, I wouldn't say that just Country Club wants Parkchester... It's more that they're the loudest ones in the room clamoring for bus service to get there, while other Bronxites are going elsewhere (within the Bronx)... As if to say, yeah, Parkchester's (as a shopping destination) cool & all, we'll maybe head over there once a ________ (whatever), but it's not.... quite... "that go to destination like that" for most Bronxites......

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Don't know why I didn't see this the first go 'round, but to give a comparison, as shopping destinations, Parkchester is to the Bronx is what Fresh Meadows is to Queens (on a little bigger scale, but not by much)... Neither of which are quite Forest Hills (commercial Austin st), which simply has a bigger draw from city residents outside of all of Queens.....

But yeah, I wouldn't say that just Country Club wants Parkchester... It's more that they're the loudest ones in the room clamoring for bus service to get there, while other Bronxites are going elsewhere (within the Bronx)... As if to say, yeah, Parkchester's (as a shopping destination) cool & all, we'll maybe head over there once a ________ (whatever), but it's not.... quite... "that go to destination like that" for most Bronxites......

 

Parkchester as a shopping destination... That's a good one... 

[BrooklynBus]

6 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Are you still hitting everyone over the head with a job that you held for only a few months almost 40 years ago?

Merely pointing out how accuracy is not important to them. Looked at today's weekender and it says M is not running between Essex St and Broadway Junction. Use J instead. When does the M run to Broadway Junction?

And I was Director of Planning for 6 months and Director of Brooklyn Planning for 2 years. Guess you are just jealous. But that's okay. And I lost the first position because the MTA didn't care enough about their employees to fix the diesel fume problem seeping into the offices.  Hardly my fault. They transferred me after I presented them with statements from 20 employees how the fumes were getting them sick.

[JeremiahC99]

38 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Merely pointing out how accuracy is not important to them. Looked at today's weekender and it says M is not running between Essex St and Broadway Junction. Use J instead. When does the M run to Broadway Junction?

 

M service to Broadway Junction is a temporary service change due to the reconstruction of the Myrtle Avenue Viaduct connector linking the Jamaica and Myrtle Avenue Lines. This project, which has been ongoing since July 2017 and is being done in preparation for the L train Canarsie Tunnel shutdown, should be complete in April 2018.

[checkmatechamp13]

4 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

M service to Broadway Junction is a temporary service change due to the reconstruction of the Myrtle Avenue Viaduct connector linking the Jamaica and Myrtle Avenue Lines. This project, which has been ongoing since July 2017 and is being done in preparation for the L train Canarsie Tunnel shutdown, should be complete in April 2018.

The funny thing is that the regular weekend shuttle is literally just a 4 car  train shuttle signed as  

[BrooklynBus]

19 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Either idea is excellent. In fact, all of the proposals from 12 years ago are excellent.

 Would you think that the B64 plan over the bridge to Staten Island could terminate at the College of Staten Island in Willowbrook or would that be too long?

Also, what ideas would you propose to have buses serve Canarsie Plaza?

I guess you mean to combine it with the S93 Limited. That would work because it would turn three bus trips into two bus trips. I don't think it would be too long. 

For Canarsie Plaza, the B42 could be the extended there.  

[checkmatechamp13]

5 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I guess you mean to combine it with the S93 Limited. That would work because it would turn three bus trips into two bus trips. I don't think it would be too long. 

For Canarsie Plaza, the B42 could be the extended there.  

That wouldn't work. The connection to the  train is crucial for Staten Islanders, since our only other way off the island (for the price of a local fare) is the ferry (which only serves Lower Manhattan). Also, with bridge congestion, a route that's (relatively) long on both sides of the bridge is asking for trouble. My personal idea for the S93 involves combining it with the S62, with some short-turns at CSI during school hours, and a super-express from CSI to Brooklyn.

For Canarsie Plaza, I would have a revived B23 serve it. It would be extended down Flatbush Avenue to join the B8, then run down Avenue D/Ditmas Avenue to Remsen Avenue to Foster Avenue to Rockaway Parkway.