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Via Garibaldi 8

MTA Records Largest Single-Year Ridership Decline in 15 Years

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33 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

That wouldn't work. The connection to the (R) train is crucial for Staten Islanders, since our only other way off the island (for the price of a local fare) is the ferry (which only serves Lower Manhattan). Also, with bridge congestion, a route that's (relatively) long on both sides of the bridge is asking for trouble. My personal idea for the S93 involves combining it with the S62, with some short-turns at CSI during school hours, and a super-express from CSI to Brooklyn.

For Canarsie Plaza, I would have a revived B23 serve it. It would be extended down Flatbush Avenue to join the B8, then run down Avenue D/Ditmas Avenue to Remsen Avenue to Foster Avenue to Rockaway Parkway.

Why couldn't the connection to the R train at 95 Street be maintained with a combination of the B64 with the S93? And your extension of a revived B23 does not mean some B42s could not be extended also. 

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5 minutes ago, St Louis Car 09 said:

New Yorkers themselves is part of the problem, not all the blame should go on the MTA

Part of what problem?

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50 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Why couldn't the connection to the R train at 95 Street be maintained with a combination of the B64 with the S93? And your extension of a revived B23 does not mean some B42s could not be extended also. 

You'd have to backtrack the route to the subway (and 92nd Street can be a mess during rush hour, as can 86th Street approaching 4th Avenue). And then on top of that, you're sending the route up to 86th Street and then back down to Cropsey when presently, riders are able to transfer at Fort Hamilton Parkway & 92nd Street. The only advantage is the one-seat ride, even though overall travel time would increase even for those relatively few people who would use it.

Edited by checkmatechamp13

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1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

For Canarsie Plaza, I would have a revived B23 serve it. It would be extended down Flatbush Avenue to join the B8, then run down Avenue D/Ditmas Avenue to Remsen Avenue to Foster Avenue to Rockaway Parkway.

I was thinking about that too. 12 years ago @BrooklynBus proposed an idea for the B23 (when it was in operation). He proposed that the route be cut in half at McDonald Avenue. The Cortelyou Road portion would have been renumbered to B21 and would’ve been extended west and south along 13th and 14th Avenue to the 86th Street R train station. The B16, which uses 13th and 14th Avenues, would be rerouted straight along Fort Hamilton Parkway (which should’ve been done a long time ago). On the eastern end, the line would’ve been extended along Beverly Road, Nostrand/NY Avenues, and Avenue D to Kings Hwy and Beverly Road. Avenue D riders would see more frequent service.

 

I would implement this idea (but I would keep the B23 route designation), which is an excellent idea, but rather than ending it at Kings Highway and Beverly Road, I would extend it along Beverly Road and Avenue B to Remsen Avenue, then south along Remsen Avenue to Foster Avenue and Remsen Avenue (Canarsie Plaza).

Edited by JeremiahC99

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9 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I was thinking about that too. 12 years ago @BrooklynBus proposed an idea for the B23 (when it was in operation). He proposed that the route be cut in half at McDonald Avenue. The Cortelyou Road portion would have been renumbered to B21 and would’ve been extended west and south along 13th and 14th Avenue to the 86th Street R train station. The B16, which uses 13th and 14th Avenues, would be rerouted straight along Fort Hamilton Parkway (which should’ve been done a long time ago). On the eastern end, the line would’ve been extended along Beverly Road, Nostrand/NY Avenues, and Avenue D to Kings Hwy and Beverly Road. Avenue D riders would see more frequent service.

 

I would implement this idea (but I would keep the B23 route designation), which is an excellent idea, but rather than ending it at Kings Highway and Beverly Road, I would extend it along Beverly Road and Avenue B to Remsen Avenue, then south along Remsen Avenue to Foster Avenue and Remsen Avenue (Canarsie Plaza).

When I made that proposal, there was no Canarsie Plaza. Funny when there is new development, it takes awhile if ever for the MTA to alter routes to serve it. And they start with crappy service hoping it would fail, so they could say we told you there was no demand. 

 

41 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

You'd have to backtrack the route to the subway (and 92nd Street can be a mess during rush hour, as can 86th Street approaching 4th Avenue). And then on top of that, you're sending the route up to 86th Street and then back down to Cropsey when presently, riders are able to transfer at Fort Hamilton Parkway & 92nd Street. The only advantage is the one-seat ride, even though overall travel time would increase even for those relatively few people who would use it.

I'll take your word for it.

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6 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

When I made that proposal, there was no Canarsie Plaza. Funny when there is new development, it takes awhile if ever for the MTA to alter routes to serve it. And they start with crappy service hoping it would fail, so they could say we told you there was no demand. 

It’s as if the MTA doesn’t even acknowledge the fact that there is demand for new development. They are under the impression that there is no one that will ride a bus going to those new developments.

Example: Resorts World Casino. Bus service was introduced to the casino via the rerouted Q37 bus, which runs on 111th Street and 135th Avenue between Kew Gardens and South Ozone Park. In September 2017, they found out that it had low ridership, so they reduced service to the casino, even though ALL of the buses went there when the service started. Did they figure out that no one wanted to go out of their way Kew Gardens to access the new casino?

Meanwhile, there is ZERO direct bus access from the casino to Brooklyn, where there could be demand for a trip to the boroughs closest casino. If I were to run the MTA operations planning department and I did origin and destination surveys, and found demand from Brooklyn, I would propose that all B15 trips that currently terminate at Elderts Lane be extended to the casino via Cross Bay Blvd and Rockaway Blvd, making a single stop at the Rockaway Blvd station. The new service would be called the B15A.

To supplement that, there would be a new service directly serving Brooklyn Neighborhoods such as Flatbush, Flatlands and Canarsie. This is modified version of Proposal A for improving access to JFK Airport, another area needing better access. In my proposal, the proposed B19 bus would become the B81, and would operate via the routing you proposed. However, one change I would make is rather than short turning alternate buses at the Brooklyn General Mail Facility (which the B15 no longer does), those short turning buses would instead operate via the B15A routing to the casino. This would improve access to the casino, providing an alternative to going to Empire City Casino.

Example 2: JFK Airport. As the nearest airport to Southern Brooklyn, it takes so long to get to by public transit. When I had to drop family friends at the airport with my dad and sister, we had to take a cab there due to the time it takes to get there by public transit. Meanwhile, there is the B15 that serves northern Brooklyn and 2 other routes servicing Queens (Q3 and Q10) that serve the main passenger terminals.

To make getting to JFK Airport easier, the JFK service you proposed would be implemented with a few modifications. The B22 LTD would be renumbered to the B85. Service would make a few additional stops: at Avenue U and East 33rd Street (serving Marine Park), Avenue U and East 57th Street (serving Mill Basin), Avenue U and Avenue U and Mill Avenue (allowing transfers to the B100), Ralph Avenue and Avenue L (Serving Georgetown), East 80th Street and Avenue L (allowing transfers to the B17), Seaview Avenue and East 80th Street (serving residents near Canarsie  Park), Seaview Avenue and East 87th Street (also serving Canarsie Park), Seaview Avenue and East 91st Street (allowing transfers to the B17, which will no longer stop at East 91st Street), and Rockaway Parkway near the Canarsie Pier (allowing transfers to the B42). Service could be branded as a Select Bus Service route, operating somewhat similar to the Q70 SBS to LaGuardia Airport in Queens, with specialty branded buses with luggage racks, SBS-style fare payment, etc.

 

Granted, these plans may not be perfect, but they are a good first step). In fact, all of your proposals from 12 years ago should’ve been implemented a long time ago, thus avoiding this ridership decline. The people running Operations Planning do not know how to plan bus service for this city and have got to go!!!!

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Quite honestly I feel like everytime MTA looks at a new route, they evaluate the route solely on cost. Routes like the B84, B32 and B67 extension where the route ends a few block from the actual transfer point (where the riders are) only because MTA refuse to operate more than two bus. 30 minutes service will not attract new ridership unless they have a bus stop right in front of their house, add on to the lack of transfer, you got yourself a few routes that are performing worse than the ones MTA cut in 2010. 

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2 hours ago, Mtatransit said:

Quite honestly I feel like everytime MTA looks at a new route, they evaluate the route solely on cost. Routes like the B84, B32 and B67 extension where the route ends a few block from the actual transfer point (where the riders are) only because MTA refuse to operate more than two bus. 30 minutes service will not attract new ridership unless they have a bus stop right in front of their house, add on to the lack of transfer, you got yourself a few routes that are performing worse than the ones MTA cut in 2010. 

That's exactly what they do. They do not consider potential revenue. When they extended the B13 to Gateway, they also combined it with the B18 just to save a single bus. Then when they were forced to increase service greater than every 30 minutes, they had to use extra buses and it costed them more money because they had to provide the extra service on Wyckoff Avenue also that didn't need it. So they didn't save anything by including the B18 in the route. Then in 2016 they just cut all service on Wyckoff Avenue inconveniencing those riders. That route might still be operating if they just left it alone. 

Your comments are spot on. 

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2 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

It’s as if the MTA doesn’t even acknowledge the fact that there is demand for new development. They are under the impression that there is no one that will ride a bus going to those new developments.

Example: Resorts World Casino. Bus service was introduced to the casino via the rerouted Q37 bus, which runs on 111th Street and 135th Avenue between Kew Gardens and South Ozone Park. In September 2017, they found out that it had low ridership, so they reduced service to the casino, even though ALL of the buses went there when the service started. Did they figure out that no one wanted to go out of their way Kew Gardens to access the new casino?

Meanwhile, there is ZERO direct bus access from the casino to Brooklyn, where there could be demand for a trip to the boroughs closest casino. If I were to run the MTA operations planning department and I did origin and destination surveys, and found demand from Brooklyn, I would propose that all B15 trips that currently terminate at Elderts Lane be extended to the casino via Cross Bay Blvd and Rockaway Blvd, making a single stop at the Rockaway Blvd station. The new service would be called the B15A.

To supplement that, there would be a new service directly serving Brooklyn Neighborhoods such as Flatbush, Flatlands and Canarsie. This is modified version of Proposal A for improving access to JFK Airport, another area needing better access. In my proposal, the proposed B19 bus would become the B81, and would operate via the routing you proposed. However, one change I would make is rather than short turning alternate buses at the Brooklyn General Mail Facility (which the B15 no longer does), those short turning buses would instead operate via the B15A routing to the casino. This would improve access to the casino, providing an alternative to going to Empire City Casino.

Example 2: JFK Airport. As the nearest airport to Southern Brooklyn, it takes so long to get to by public transit. When I had to drop family friends at the airport with my dad and sister, we had to take a cab there due to the time it takes to get there by public transit. Meanwhile, there is the B15 that serves northern Brooklyn and 2 other routes servicing Queens (Q3 and Q10) that serve the main passenger terminals.

To make getting to JFK Airport easier, the JFK service you proposed would be implemented with a few modifications. The B22 LTD would be renumbered to the B85. Service would make a few additional stops: at Avenue U and East 33rd Street (serving Marine Park), Avenue U and East 57th Street (serving Mill Basin), Avenue U and Avenue U and Mill Avenue (allowing transfers to the B100), Ralph Avenue and Avenue L (Serving Georgetown), East 80th Street and Avenue L (allowing transfers to the B17), Seaview Avenue and East 80th Street (serving residents near Canarsie  Park), Seaview Avenue and East 87th Street (also serving Canarsie Park), Seaview Avenue and East 91st Street (allowing transfers to the B17, which will no longer stop at East 91st Street), and Rockaway Parkway near the Canarsie Pier (allowing transfers to the B42). Service could be branded as a Select Bus Service route, operating somewhat similar to the Q70 SBS to LaGuardia Airport in Queens, with specialty branded buses with luggage racks, SBS-style fare payment, etc.

 

Granted, these plans may not be perfect, but they are a good first step). In fact, all of your proposals from 12 years ago should’ve been implemented a long time ago, thus avoiding this ridership decline. The people running Operations Planning do not know how to plan bus service for this city and have got to go!!!!

Your last sentence is the way I have felt about Operations Planning ever since I left the Department in 1982.

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6 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Your last sentence is the way I have felt about Operations Planning ever since I left the Department in 1982.

That’s right. We should fire everyone in Operations Planning and replace them with more competent people who care about serving the bus passengers and know how to plan a bus system properly.

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