Breaking News: Will M'ville Depot be forced closed?

[Gotham Bus Co.]

14 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

What is the next alternative to Flushing for the replacement Casey Stengel Depot?

Not sure there even is an alternative other than, quite literally, discontinuing service.

[MysteriousBtrain]

13 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

That's what I'm also trying to find. You are right about all the good land being developed. I wish the city didn't give away good land to private developers and letting them build new development without giving into consideration traffic needs? The development just makes street congestion worse and bus service slower and unreliable. I predict this slowing of service will happen to Manhattanville Bus routes if Manhattanville Depot closes with potentially no replacement.

 

What is the next alternative to Flushing for the replacement Casey Stengel Depot?

Only IF the MTA/NYCT merger works like it should, maybe move some operations to CP. 

[Future ENY OP]

1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Not sure there even is an alternative other than, quite literally, discontinuing service.

Queens has a unique situation only and ONLY if the MTA/NYCT merger does go thru.

If not you are talking serious deadheading between Jamaica and Queens Village with the current CS routes in operation.

1 hour ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Only IF the MTA/NYCT merger works like it should, maybe move some operations to CP. 

CP and LGA.

 

PS: Let's stay in topic in the confines of Manhattanville and the Manhattan Division. Although, the CS situation is somewhat in relation. However, there are no reports right now that suggest that CS is imminent to close.

[JeremiahC99]

26 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Queens has a unique situation only and ONLY if the MTA/NYCT merger does go thru.

If not you are talking serious deadheading between Jamaica and Queens Village with the current CS routes in operation.

CP and LGA.

 

PS: Let's stay in topic in the confines of Manhattanville and the Manhattan Division. Although, the CS situation is somewhat in relation. However, there are no reports right now that suggest that CS is imminent to close.

If Manhattanvile closes and the buses move to new depots, would that create delays and affect service reliability for bus routes currently in Manhattanville?

[Gotham Bus Co.]

4 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

TA is not even thinking about building other depots. 

Besides, building new depots would be politically difficult. Some communities — especially the ones surrounding Manhattanville, Tuskegee, and Mother Hale Depots — have already claimed "environmental racism" even though they know that the depots predate the current residents. ("Why are so many bus garages located in minority neighborhoods"? "Because minorities moved into bus garage neighborhoods.")

[Future ENY OP]

7 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Besides, building new depots would be politically difficult. Some communities — especially the ones surrounding Manhattanville, Tuskegee, and Mother Hale Depots — have already claimed "environmental racism" even though they know that the depots predate the current residents. ("Why are so many bus garages located in minority neighborhoods"? "Because minorities moved into bus garage neighborhoods.")

We didn't complain about when Grand Avenue was being built tho? Although you have Far East Williamsburg and Maspeth to deal with  

Yes, I even remember 54th street as a little kid living on the lower east side and Hudson Pier, and honestly had the TA left at least one of those depots open. We wouldn't really be complaining about Manhattanville. Since there's space Downtown. 

Now, this environmental racism to me I don't believe it b/c those 3 depots were in their areas way in the early 1900's. In this instance I agree with you on this. 

[NY1635]

On 3/3/2018 at 5:06 PM, JeremiahC99 said:

Is Casey Stengel Depot really closing? If so, where would the 225 buses currently assigned there be stored at? Why would they do this while Jamaica Depot is getting rebuilt? 

 

Also, where did you get the Casey Stengel depot closing information from?

Either the Jamaica, QV, or Baisley Depots. I'm serious. Same thing happening to M'ville and Casey happened to the RVC Depot with NICE when Avalon wanted to build apartments around the LIRR station. Buses are going to be pushed out to the parts of Queens, Bronx, Manhattan, and Brooklyn that hasn't been gentrified yet, which means more buses running behind schedule and fewer routes. 

[Orion6025]

Could a Flushing depot be built on the site of the old Flushing Airport or has some developer already bought that land...

[Gotham Bus Co.]

24 minutes ago, Orion6025 said:

Could a Flushing depot be built on the site of the old Flushing Airport or has some developer already bought that land...

Bloomberg tried to turn the old airport into a food distribution center and the local politicians cried NIMBY because of projected traffic jams on Linden Place at the Whitestone service road. They would do so again with 225 buses, especially with 300+ other buses parked a couple of blocks away.Besides, the swamp has almost totally reclaimed the whole airport site.

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Bloomberg tried to turn the old airport into a food distribution center and the local politicians cried NIMBY because of projected traffic jams on Linden Place at the Whitestone service road. They would do so again with 225 buses, especially with 300+ other buses parked a couple of blocks away.Besides, the swamp has almost totally reclaimed the whole airport site.

Honestly, it's in a giant industrial area and surrounded by big box stores. The traffic boat sailed a while ago.

At this point, any use of that site would be better than the West Nile breeding ground it is today.

[Statty]

Oh man this sucks.

Has anyone passed by Manhattanville depot recently? They had exterior work done to it. All the bricks and panels were replaced. Not sure if it was Columbia having to do it because of lease related reasons but it wouldn't make sense to me for them to fork the money to do the entire exterior work, if they plan to remove the depot.

[WestFarms36]

Kingsbridge can't get crap either, they are so out of capacity that it explains the reason why the Bx41 was forced to be sent to Gun Hill. Manhattanville unfortunately cannot close because it will cause a hell of a disaster relocating operations, B/O's, Buses, and routes. Plus what is Columbia's F*cking concern over a glass box? The depot has been there way longer than any of their F*cking buildings in the area. Whats next? "OH LET'S SHUTDOWN THE WEST SIDE HIGHWAY TO EXPAND EVEN MORE OUR GLASS BUILDINGS AND SCREW A BUNCH OF PEOPLE UP BECAUSE THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO PAY FOR ONE OF OUR 16×24 CARTBOARD ROOMS." Oh F*ck you, we don't even benefit from having your satanic silverware standing in Manhattan. The Depot seriously is the only resort left, and Maintanence for those Hybrid buses would destroy their clean Maintance backlog. I hope Andy Byford and anyone involved in this fight to use their sweat and integrity to stop this. I am tired of these f*cking hipsters complaining about any little thing that bothers them while we are screwed suffering things worse than what they cry for because they feel entitled to demand the city to offer their needs like if they were some High Class barbie dolls. Seriously how infuriating it is to see the disrespect and self centeredness these @$$holes have built over themselves.

[MysteriousBtrain]

16 minutes ago, WestFarms36 said:

Kingsbridge can't get crap either, they are so out of capacity that it explains the reason why the Bx41 was forced to be sent to Gun Hill. Manhattanville unfortunately cannot close because it will cause a hell of a disaster relocating operations, B/O's, Buses, and routes. Plus what is Columbia's F*cking concern over a glass box? The depot has been there way longer than any of their F*cking buildings in the area. Whats next? "OH LET'S SHUTDOWN THE WEST SIDE HIGHWAY TO EXPAND EVEN MORE OUR GLASS BUILDINGS AND SCREW A BUNCH OF PEOPLE UP BECAUSE THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO PAY FOR ONE OF OUR 16×24 CARTBOARD ROOMS." Oh F*ck you, we don't even benefit from having your satanic silverware standing in Manhattan. The Depot seriously is the only resort left, and Maintanence for those Hybrid buses would destroy their clean Maintance backlog. I hope Andy Byford and anyone involved in this fight to use their sweat and integrity to stop this. I am tired of these f*cking hipsters complaining about any little thing that bothers them while we are screwed suffering things worse than what they cry for because they feel entitled to demand the city to offer their needs like if they were some High Class barbie dolls. Seriously how infuriating it is to see the disrespect and self centeredness these @$$holes have built over themselves.

Whether it's for school expansion or to be rid of "noisy" transportation.....

[BreeddekalbL]

If the scenario does happen is the Ta looking at any old facilities along the river or has it been ruled out?

[East New York]

10 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Besides, building new depots would be politically difficult. Some communities — especially the ones surrounding Manhattanville, Tuskegee, and Mother Hale Depots — have already claimed "environmental racism" even though they know that the depots predate the current residents. ("Why are so many bus garages located in minority neighborhoods"? "Because minorities moved into bus garage neighborhoods.")

I beg to differ. More than half of the people who live in the areas surrounding those and their relitives have historically been black and Hispanic. They were there before all those depots were built. And for the record upper Manhattan had 6 depots operating all Diesel buses pre-emissions requirements. That's more depots per square mile than any other person on the planet.... Upper Manhattan historically has had the most minority residents with Asthma as well. 

Black History 101 - They were there first. Period. Harlem Nights, The Black Rennesance... 1920's and 30's. Etc 

MTA History 101 - There were more depots uptown Manhattan and still are  (in a concentrated area) than anywhere on Earth. Let alone the country. Look at the locations of LACMTA depots? CTA depots? There is usually a pattern with few exceptions.

New York City History 101 - Hale and Tuskegee are named in honor of famous minorities for a reason. 

Fact. The oldest depots in the system are East New York (even though it was a car barn first) and Jamaica. So who moved into what neighborhoods??? 🙄

Bus depots have historically been placed in lower income and minority neighborhood. And the other ones are now LEED standard. IE. Manhattanville being all hybrid, Gleason and College Point being all CNG.... Look at the neighborhoods they are in. 

Non-minority neighborhoods have historically not allowed depots in their neighborhoods and if the stay or a new one gets built, then best believe clean energy buses are running out of it..... 

Do we need a timeline of 6 uptown MTA depots (all North of 100 Street)  plus storage lots and then and a timeline of Black and Hispanic people who shouldn't have moved into the neighborhoods?? And the ones already there?? Or maybe when 126th Street Depot was so disrespectfully built right on top of God knows how many Black men, women and childrens graves??? 

[EastFlatbushLarry]

1 hour ago, East New York said:

I beg to differ. More than half of the people who live in the areas surrounding those and their relitives have historically been black and Hispanic. They were there before all those depots were built. And for the record upper Manhattan had 6 depots operating all Diesel buses pre-emissions requirements. That's more depots per square mile than any other person on the planet.... Upper Manhattan historically has had the most minority residents with Asthma as well. 

Black History 101 - They were there first. Period. Harlem Nights, The Black Rennesance... 1920's and 30's. Etc 

MTA History 101 - There were more depots uptown Manhattan and still are  (in a concentrated area) than anywhere on Earth. Let alone the country. Look at the locations of LACMTA depots? CTA depots? There is usually a pattern with few exceptions.

New York City History 101 - Hale and Tuskegee are named in honor of famous minorities for a reason. 

Fact. The oldest depots in the system are East New York (even though it was a car barn first) and Jamaica. So who moved into what neighborhoods??? 🙄

Bus depots have historically been placed in lower income and minority neighborhood. And the other ones are now LEED standard. IE. Manhattanville being all hybrid, Gleason and College Point being all CNG.... Look at the neighborhoods they are in. 

Non-minority neighborhoods have historically not allowed depots in their neighborhoods and if the stay or a new one gets built, then best believe clean energy buses are running out of it..... 

Do we need a timeline of 6 uptown MTA depots (all North of 100 Street)  plus storage lots and then and a timeline of Black and Hispanic people who shouldn't have moved into the neighborhoods?? And the ones already there?? Or maybe when 126th Street Depot was so disrespectfully built right on top of God knows how many Black men, women and childrens graves??? 

God, i love a good history lesson... I'd love to see the correlation between bus depots (regardless of origin, PBL/TA/OA) and minority communities... As i think about it.. Walnut Depot, Coliseum/West Farms and Fresh Pond (all immigrant neighborhoods)... This can be a very deep & profound discussion.

[Brillant93]

3 hours ago, East New York said:

I beg to differ. More than half of the people who live in the areas surrounding those and their relitives have historically been black and Hispanic. They were there before all those depots were built. And for the record upper Manhattan had 6 depots operating all Diesel buses pre-emissions requirements. That's more depots per square mile than any other person on the planet.... Upper Manhattan historically has had the most minority residents with Asthma as well. 

Black History 101 - They were there first. Period. Harlem Nights, The Black Rennesance... 1920's and 30's. Etc 

MTA History 101 - There were more depots uptown Manhattan and still are  (in a concentrated area) than anywhere on Earth. Let alone the country. Look at the locations of LACMTA depots? CTA depots? There is usually a pattern with few exceptions.

New York City History 101 - Hale and Tuskegee are named in honor of famous minorities for a reason. 

Fact. The oldest depots in the system are East New York (even though it was a car barn first) and Jamaica. So who moved into what neighborhoods??? 🙄

Bus depots have historically been placed in lower income and minority neighborhood. And the other ones are now LEED standard. IE. Manhattanville being all hybrid, Gleason and College Point being all CNG.... Look at the neighborhoods they are in. 

Non-minority neighborhoods have historically not allowed depots in their neighborhoods and if the stay or a new one gets built, then best believe clean energy buses are running out of it..... 

Do we need a timeline of 6 uptown MTA depots (all North of 100 Street)  plus storage lots and then and a timeline of Black and Hispanic people who shouldn't have moved into the neighborhoods?? And the ones already there?? Or maybe when 126th Street Depot was so disrespectfully built right on top of God knows how many Black men, women and childrens graves??? 

I don’t think neccessarily it’s about “let’s pollute the minorities” but land value. I live by the Flatbush depot and I was raised in the area since 1996. The area was perdominitly white until then. The depot been there forever and Flatbush got hybrids over 10 years later from when I moved there as a kid, but I still pass by the depot and smell the diesel fumes. If they ever close Flatbush down all hell would break lose in south Brooklyn. 

But I could also see why there are racial controversies with bus depots in upper Manhattan. High rates of ashtmas, being built on burial grounds, and taking away living space. I believe that if manhattanville closes it would hurt a lot of bus routes, workers, and commuters. A lot of minorities rely on transit to get to work. Just pushing ops to temporay areas can hurt a lot. 

So if it does happen maybe there can be a way to ensure routes aren’t affect a lot and if a depot is rebuilt or ams is reactivated maybe making it more eco friendly so residents won’t have to deal with issues. If they did it with mjq depot they could do it again. 

[checkmatechamp13]

14 hours ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

God, i love a good history lesson... I'd love to see the correlation between bus depots (regardless of origin, PBL/TA/OA) and minority communities... As i think about it.. Walnut Depot, Coliseum/West Farms and Fresh Pond (all immigrant neighborhoods)... This can be a very deep & profound discussion.

Same here. The thing is, many years ago, some areas that are now minority used to be white areas (and many still are). Offhand, Ulmer Park, Yukon, and Charleston are in predominantly white areas and Flatbush and Castleton were white neighborhood's at the time they were built.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

15 hours ago, East New York said:

I beg to differ. More than half of the people who live in the areas surrounding those and their relitives have historically been black and Hispanic. They were there before all those depots were built. And for the record upper Manhattan had 6 depots operating all Diesel buses pre-emissions requirements. That's more depots per square mile than any other person on the planet.... Upper Manhattan historically has had the most minority residents with Asthma as well. 

Black History 101 - They were there first. Period. Harlem Nights, The Black Rennesance... 1920's and 30's. Etc 

MTA History 101 - There were more depots uptown Manhattan and still are  (in a concentrated area) than anywhere on Earth. Let alone the country. Look at the locations of LACMTA depots? CTA depots? There is usually a pattern with few exceptions.

New York City History 101 - Hale and Tuskegee are named in honor of famous minorities for a reason. 

Fact. The oldest depots in the system are East New York (even though it was a car barn first) and Jamaica. So who moved into what neighborhoods??? 🙄

Bus depots have historically been placed in lower income and minority neighborhood. And the other ones are now LEED standard. IE. Manhattanville being all hybrid, Gleason and College Point being all CNG.... Look at the neighborhoods they are in. 

Non-minority neighborhoods have historically not allowed depots in their neighborhoods and if the stay or a new one gets built, then best believe clean energy buses are running out of it..... 

Do we need a timeline of 6 uptown MTA depots (all North of 100 Street)  plus storage lots and then and a timeline of Black and Hispanic people who shouldn't have moved into the neighborhoods?? And the ones already there?? Or maybe when 126th Street Depot was so disrespectfully built right on top of God knows how many Black men, women and childrens graves??? 

 

As for Hale and Tuskegee being named in honor of famous minorities: That is true, but those sites were bus garages long before they were renamed and rebuilt. 

 

When the current Tuskegee was being built, the surrounding community tried to claim that a bus garage would be a completely new and unprecedented land use (because the former 100th Street Depot/carbarn had already been torn down). Of course, that argument went nowhere. Ditto for Manhattanville (old 132nd Street Depot and Fifth Avenue Coach HQ).

 

As for lots of depots being located uptown, that is because the longer north-south routes started uptown (and still do). It just made sense to have the depot near the streetcars and buses need to be. (Also, Amsterdam and the original 100th Street were carbarns in the late 1800's, which predates the Harlem Renaissance.)

 

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

16 hours ago, East New York said:

I beg to differ. More than half of the people who live in the areas surrounding those and their relitives have historically been black and Hispanic. They were there before all those depots were built. And for the record upper Manhattan had 6 depots operating all Diesel buses pre-emissions requirements. That's more depots per square mile than any other person on the planet.... Upper Manhattan historically has had the most minority residents with Asthma as well. 

Black History 101 - They were there first. Period. Harlem Nights, The Black Rennesance... 1920's and 30's. Etc 

MTA History 101 - There were more depots uptown Manhattan and still are  (in a concentrated area) than anywhere on Earth. Let alone the country. Look at the locations of LACMTA depots? CTA depots? There is usually a pattern with few exceptions.

New York City History 101 - Hale and Tuskegee are named in honor of famous minorities for a reason. 

Fact. The oldest depots in the system are East New York (even though it was a car barn first) and Jamaica. So who moved into what neighborhoods??? 🙄

Bus depots have historically been placed in lower income and minority neighborhood. And the other ones are now LEED standard. IE. Manhattanville being all hybrid, Gleason and College Point being all CNG.... Look at the neighborhoods they are in. 

Non-minority neighborhoods have historically not allowed depots in their neighborhoods and if the stay or a new one gets built, then best believe clean energy buses are running out of it..... 

Do we need a timeline of 6 uptown MTA depots (all North of 100 Street)  plus storage lots and then and a timeline of Black and Hispanic people who shouldn't have moved into the neighborhoods?? And the ones already there?? Or maybe when 126th Street Depot was so disrespectfully built right on top of God knows how many Black men, women and childrens graves??? 

I think it's preposterous that you're making this into a race issue, when it's clearly a question of cheap land.  Let's use Yonkers Depot as an example.  Before the city of Yonkers started clamoring for the land to reclaim the waterfront, no one was interested in that land.  The area suffers from severe flooding.  We could use Kingsbridge Depot, and West Farms as well.  The depots have to be somewhere and there's always going to be someone up in arms about it, but more than likely they'll be built on the cheapest land possible, and they may happen to be in black and brown areas because not all depots are located in residential areas.  You talk about East New York as if it was always a minority neighborhood. It's always been an undesirable area from a land standpoint for decades because it was prone to water issues way before any minorities lived there. When it was an Italian and Jewish area it was classified as a poor ghetto and run down even then.  It was cheap land.  

We should also be honest in saying that poor folks have too many other things to worry about.  They're trying to survive, so poor air quality won't necessarily be at the top of their list when it comes to addressing issues.  In my neighborhood that's something we focus on regularly (having environmentally friendly buses) and have meetings about, but we don't have to worry about high crime like other areas do and other quality of life issues.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

7 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think it's preposterous that you're making this into a race issue, when it's clearly a question of cheap land.  Let's use Yonkers Depot as an example.  Before the city of Yonkers started clamoring for the land to reclaim the waterfront, no one was interested in that land.  The area suffers from severe flooding.  We could use Kingsbridge Depot, and West Farms as well.  The depots have to be somewhere and there's always going to be someone up in arms about it, but more than likely they'll be built on the cheapest land possible, and they may happen to be in black and brown areas because not all depots are located in residential areas.  You talk about East New York as if it was always a minority neighborhood. It's always been an undesirable area from a land standpoint for decades because it was prone to water issues way before any minorities lived there. When it was an Italian and Jewish area it was classified as a poor ghetto and run down even then.  It was cheap land.  

We should also be honest in saying that poor folks have too many other things to worry about.  They're trying to survive, so poor air quality won't necessarily be at the top of their list when it comes to addressing issues.  In my neighborhood that's something we focus on regularly (having environmentally friendly buses) and have meetings about, but we don't have to worry about high crime like other areas do and other quality of life issues.

 

And now, of course, there is no more cheap land anywhere. If depots are forced to close due to political opposition or back-room deals, it may well become physically impossible to provide the service that passengers need.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

13 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

I don’t think neccessarily it’s about “let’s pollute the minorities” but land value. I live by the Flatbush depot and I was raised in the area since 1996. The area was perdominitly white until then. The depot been there forever and Flatbush got hybrids over 10 years later from when I moved there as a kid, but I still pass by the depot and smell the diesel fumes. If they ever close Flatbush down all hell would break lose in south Brooklyn. 

But I could also see why there are racial controversies with bus depots in upper Manhattan. High rates of ashtmas, being built on burial grounds, and taking away living space. I believe that if manhattanville closes it would hurt a lot of bus routes, workers, and commuters. A lot of minorities rely on transit to get to work. Just pushing ops to temporay areas can hurt a lot. 

So if it does happen maybe there can be a way to ensure routes aren’t affect a lot and if a depot is rebuilt or ams is reactivated maybe making it more eco friendly so residents won’t have to deal with issues. If they did it with mjq depot they could do it again. 

The  has gone above and beyond in trying to address high asthma rates in minority areas.  They've built several new depots and ordered a plethora of clean air buses.  I think the issue is that in some of these areas, the situation was allowed to fester so there was a reaction to the issue rather than being proactive from the start.  Hell if we really want to talk about racism look at Ulmer Park Depot. It's located in a mainly white area, and the depot looks like garbage. They have those old RTS buses parked all over the street when I pass by on the X28 polluting the surrounding neighborhood which is all residential.  

Yukon Depot was just as bad until recently with their buses parked all over the place in a primarily white residential area.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

And now, of course, there is no more cheap land anywhere. If depots are forced to close due to political opposition or back-room deals, it may well become physically impossible to provide the service that passengers need.

Yes excellent point.  Even an area like East New York is no longer "cheap".  If I recall correctly 126th street was built without knowledge of it being a burial place.  It too was built in an undesirable area (right off of a bunch of highways).  There is really no one living close by.  You have to go a few blocks over before you reach any residential places, so if that burial place wasn't there, it was an ideal place to build a depot and it was cheap land for obvious reasons.

[East New York]

57 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think it's preposterous that you're making this into a race issue, when it's clearly a question of cheap land.  Let's use Yonkers Depot as an example.  Before the city of Yonkers started clamoring for the land to reclaim the waterfront, no one was interested in that land.  The area suffers from severe flooding.  We could use Kingsbridge Depot, and West Farms as well.  The depots have to be somewhere and there's always going to be someone up in arms about it, but more than likely they'll be built on the cheapest land possible, and they may happen to be in black and brown areas because not all depots are located in residential areas.  You talk about East New York as if it was always a minority neighborhood. It's always been an undesirable area from a land standpoint for decades because it was prone to water issues way before any minorities lived there. When it was an Italian and Jewish area it was classified as a poor ghetto and run down even then.  It was cheap land.  

We should also be honest in saying that poor folks have too many other things to worry about.  They're trying to survive, so poor air quality won't necessarily be at the top of their list when it comes to addressing issues.  In my neighborhood that's something we focus on regularly (having environmentally friendly buses) and have meetings about, but we don't have to worry about high crime like other areas do and other quality of life issues.

It is a race issue. I'm not making it into anything. It's very well documented too. It's been swept under the rug for waaaaay too long. You of ALL PEOPLE should know that.... But as many, you choose to ignore or deflect.... We are not using Yonkers and an example either. I was talking about New York City Transit and it's predecessors. Clearly I'm not talking about land no one is interested in. I'm staying the facts in NYC.

And you really think because someone is poor that air quality is not at the top of their list? You and your tunnel vision never ceases to amaze me. You are gonna sit here and tell me that countless poor parents aren't at least worried about their children's air quality of not even their own? Ok..... 🙄

At @Gotham Bus Co I agree with your points as well, however there are facts that have gone decades unspoken. 

I totally agree with your demographics. You are also making my point that the hey have been historically in undesirable neighborhoods or locations. It wasn't just about race. It's just that it's also a fact that minorities were the bulk of the residents surrounding the areas. No one knew that high sulfhur diesel was bad and other things. I'm not saying Depots were purposely put I'm these areas, I'm just saying that as they was going on we have learned more about what's actually been going on. 

Generally they are in areas of poor white and minority populations. However 75% happen to be minority neighborhoods. The rest are usually poor.

I'm not suggesting any of this was done purposely, but it doesn't move us forward as a nation when we keep sweeping certain parts of history under the rug. Especially when they are well documented.

Now back to the topic at hand please. 

[MHV9218]

These are excellent points.

Folks trying to argue a total separation between land value and demographics--doesn't work like that.  Our neighborhoods look the way they do thanks to years and years of gentrification, urban renewal, Moses-era grid design, and what you might call 'market segregation' by the real estate industry. The MTA isn't conspiring to build depots in minority neighborhoods out of racism, no. But is the MTA well-aware that minority neighborhoods have the least political sway when it comes to rejecting or protesting a new depot? Absolutely. Race, class, political power -- all this stuff is interconnected, and I don't buy anybody who's arguing that it isn't really believes their point. It's ahistorical to claim anything otherwise.