Breaking News: Will M'ville Depot be forced closed?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

These are excellent points.

Folks trying to argue a total separation between land value and demographics--doesn't work like that.  Our neighborhoods look the way they do thanks to years and years of gentrification, urban renewal, Moses-era grid design, and what you might call 'market segregation' by the real estate industry. The MTA isn't conspiring to build depots in minority neighborhoods out of racism, no. But is the MTA well-aware that minority neighborhoods have the least political sway when it comes to rejecting or protesting a new depot? Absolutely. Race, class, political power -- all this stuff is interconnected, and I don't buy anybody who's arguing that it isn't really believes their point. It's ahistorical to claim anything otherwise.

I think a better term for all of this would be land value and socio-economic differences.  I think it goes without saying that those in marginalized areas will be in a position to fight the least for reasons I mentioned earlier. That's a no-brainer.  We had a situation where an outside group tried to come and build something that the community was completely against, and we had various grass roots organizations, volunteers who lived in the area and private lawyers stop the project dead in its tracks.  

---

This situation with Columbia University will be an interesting one and I could very well see the  giving up the land for the right price. I think you could actually relocate the depot somewhere between Broadway and Riverside Drive in that area. You do have what would be considered "cheaper land" (the  comes up from underground over there, not to mention industrial eyesores...) Perfect place to build a depot from that standpoint.  However I don't think the folks in the housing projects would care for it, but you could make it eco-friendly and all of that and they're not immediately right there anyway.

I'm speaking as someone who worked in the construction industry on the commercial and residential side.

[Blitz]

It's my understanding that MTV was built with the support columns extending through the roof so it could be built on top of. But I guess Columbia doesn't want to share space with a bus depot though. If I was in charge of the MTA, I would accept any compensation less than the complete cost to build a new depot, which has been around $500,000,000 lately. If they are looking for a space, there's been a big empty lot a block away from the United Nations for the past 10 years or so. 

[BreeddekalbL]

I agree i would demand full cost to relocate

[EastFlatbushLarry]

1 hour ago, Blitz said:

It's my understanding that MTV was built with the support columns extending through the roof so it could be built on top of. But I guess Columbia doesn't want to share space with a bus depot though. If I was in charge of the MTA, I would accept any compensation less than the complete cost to build a new depot, which has been around $500,000,000 lately. If they are looking for a space, there's been a big empty lot a block away from the United Nations for the past 10 years or so. 

Holy hell, i totally forgot about the empty land space near the U.N. and near the 30th street intake homeless shelter (Bellevue) on first avenue. That could very well work. 

[MHV9218]

1 hour ago, Blitz said:

It's my understanding that MTV was built with the support columns extending through the roof so it could be built on top of. But I guess Columbia doesn't want to share space with a bus depot though. If I was in charge of the MTA, I would accept any compensation less than the complete cost to build a new depot, which has been around $500,000,000 lately. If they are looking for a space, there's been a big empty lot a block away from the United Nations for the past 10 years or so. 

There's a reason that lot's been empty--the owner's sitting on it trying to make an insane buck. Maybe with some legally radical eminent domain maneuver there's a chance, but the MTA isn't anywhere near the budget to look into building on a plot like that. Put it this way, it cost the owner of that lot over $700mil just to buy and clear the land, and that was around 20 years ago. I'd bet you that developer is waiting for at least $1.5-2bil for the land alone, and then you have to start building on it.

[EastFlatbushLarry]

11 minutes ago, BreeddekalbL said:

I agree i would demand full cost to relocate

They'd be beyond foolish not to demand letalone expect full compensation. Even if Amsterdam or Hudson Pier were considered options for relocation or restoration, transit can't allow Columbia to lowball them. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

There's a reason that lot's been empty--the owner's sitting on it trying to make an insane buck. Maybe with some legally radical eminent domain maneuver there's a chance, but the MTA isn't anywhere near the budget to look into building on a plot like that. Put it this way, it cost the owner of that lot over $700mil just to buy and clear the land, and that was around 20 years ago. I'd bet you that developer is waiting for at least $1.5-2bil for the land alone, and then you have to start building on it.

As was said earlier, finding cheap land is almost impossible in this city, and the depot would have to be built somewhere, so someone will be crying foul one way or another.  Additionally, I don't know why people try to vilify investors and developers for trying to maximize their profit.  It's perfectly legal to sit on the land and if someone is willing to pay what he's asking for then that's that.  

[EastFlatbushLarry]

4 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

There's a reason that lot's been empty--the owner's sitting on it trying to make an insane buck. Maybe with some legally radical eminent domain maneuver there's a chance, but the MTA isn't anywhere near the budget to look into building on a plot like that. Put it this way, it cost the owner of that lot over $700mil just to buy and clear the land, and that was around 20 years ago. I'd bet you that developer is waiting for at least $1.5-2bil for the land alone, and then you have to start building on it.

1.5 to 2 billion? And it's been sitting for 20 years? That's a damn shame. Maybe Randall's Island IS a viable option 😂 (joking) 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

1.5 to 2 billion? And it's been sitting for 20 years? That's a damn shame. Maybe Randall's Island IS a viable option 😂 (joking) 

That seems quite reasonable.  That seems like a lot but it isn't.  He still has taxes and other expenses to pay on that property, so even if he gets 50% of what he paid it isn't that egregious, and most of these guys re-invest their monies anyway into other properties.  Being a developer in NYC is a costly and expensive endeavor with all of the regulations and costs that the City has for this and that.

Unless the guy has really deep pockets, he's likely going in with other investors who are looking to maximize on what they put out.

[EastFlatbushLarry]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That seems quite reasonable.  That seems like a lot but it isn't.  He still has taxes and other expenses to pay on that property, so even if he gets 50% of what he paid it isn't that egregious, and most of these guys re-invest their monies anyway into other properties.  Being a developer in NYC is a costly and expensive endeavor with all of the regulations and costs that the City has for this and that.

Unless the guy has really deep pockets, he's likely going in with other investors who are looking to maximize on what they put out.

Makes sense. It took about 20 years or so to develop the land near Spring Creek Depot including Gateway Mall itself, so it isn't totally farfetched.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

Makes sense. It took about 20 years or so to develop the land near Spring Creek Depot including Gateway Mall itself, so it isn't totally farfetched.

It's a waiting game, but while he's been sitting on that land for the last 20 years, he's been taking a loss since he isn't developing it.  He's just maintaining it as is, paying to upkeep it and paying the taxes and everything else due on it.  I'm not saying he won't make a nice profit, but he's had to spend a nice penny to make what he'll get.

What we're seeing here with this depot situation is the future that faces the .  We have an ever growing population, less and less land available, developers buying whatever "cheap land" exists and flipping it for a profit and so on.   I would also think that Columbia would like to keep this as quiet as possible so that all negotiations can be done behind closed doors.  When they purchased an unfinished condo a few in my neighborhood there in Riverdale, they put in the money to finish the building as luxury apartments for their grad students, and while the local politicians argued that they preferred to have condo buyers over grad students who would be in the area two years tops before moving on, it was better to have them buy and finish the building than to have the building sit unfinished for years and be an eyesore for the community given that the original developer ran out of money to finish the project.

In this case, I think it'll be a win-win for all parties, and Columbia looks at this as the cost of doing business and expanding its campus.  The local residents will be up in arms either way because either they don't want the depot built, or they don't want Columbia expanding because it means much higher rents.  Either way something has to give.

[B35 via Church]

When it comes to Manhattan, I have always gotten the sense that Quill is supposed to be this "mega" depot that is set to house every single route in the borough..... If they could get away with that, I believe such would be the case

When facilities like hospitals & fire houses are being threatened to (or have actually been) set to close down, what hope is there for a bus depot - unless they're way in the middle of not much in particular like Meredith, Charleston, and Grand....

One can only hope Amsterdam gets reactivated, but I'm not optimistic about it....

[Future ENY OP]

46 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

When it comes to Manhattan, I have always gotten the sense that Quill is supposed to be this "mega" depot that is set to house every single route in the borough..... If they could get away with that, I believe such would be the case

When facilities like hospitals & fire houses are being threatened to (or have actually been) set to close down, what hope is there for a bus depot - unless they're way in the middle of not much in particular like Meredith, Charleston, and Grand....

One can only hope Amsterdam gets reactivated, but I'm not optimistic about it....

Honestly, the pure reason Grand was built was for capacity in the Brooklyn Division. I've said this since day one that they are not doing a good job with that. I've also pointed out examples of the B47, B48 and B60. Those routes need to return back to their original depots and they are notorious for bus bunching. 

As for Manhattan, others elude that property near the UN could serve as a depot. My only guess is that developer is looking for a massive payday. But, that location is directly crosstown from Quill.  But yet again stranger things have happen.

I'm with you on this. Don't reactivate Amsterdam. I feel they can switch around some lines with the Bronx Division. I've plotted some scenarios that can possibly free up Kingsbridge to absurd some of the uptown lines.  However, if capacity is increased at MCH than they can absurd it. 

[aemoreira81]

Amsterdam would need to be completely rebuilt to house an MTA operation the size of Manhattanville. Isn't that building from the 19th century and a former trolley barn? This is where the Walnut Depot property (now used by the New York Post) could have been useful. I would see AMS as having to be torn down and rebuilt as at least a 3-story garage, with the museum fleet moved to the CMF.

[mine248]

21 hours ago, aemoreira81 said:

Amsterdam would need to be completely rebuilt to house an MTA operation the size of Manhattanville. Isn't that building from the 19th century and a former trolley barn? This is where the Walnut Depot property (now used by the New York Post) could have been useful. I would see AMS as having to be torn down and rebuilt as at least a 3-story garage, with the museum fleet moved to the CMF.

No. The museum buses shouldn’t be receiveing the sadism. Plus, Amsterdam should become a Bus Transit Museum anyways. Columbia needs to f**k off before the city sue them for monopoly. 

[FLX9304]

On 3/3/2018 at 11:55 AM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

That depends on how much money is involved. When the MTA was forced to sell Walnut Depot in 1998 (because Rupert Murdoch wanted a production facility for the NY Post), the price was around $11 million. That much today won't even buy 20 buses.

 

Plus, when Casey Stengel Depot closes to accommodate the LaGuardia AirTrain, the sale price will be zero.

Wait. You mention that Casey Stengal closes, does anyone in the city realize that the depot is closer to the Corona Yard (7)? or have they forgotten about that.

As for Manhattanville, Columbia and the MTA will have to agree on something first before anything can happen. Utilizing other depots for services is not a way to do things, even if they wanna bunch routes to different depots. If this keeps happening like this, There could be one large depot in each borough to maintain 5,700 divided by 5.

I would say relocate manhattanville to at least 135th or 139th St west on Broadway. 

[FLX9304]

On 3/4/2018 at 1:15 PM, MysteriousBtrain said:

There is technically an area in Hunt's Point that can be looked at. Tiffany shops which holds a few redbirds has a bit of room to possibly construct a bus depot on.

I agree with MysteriousBtrain on this one or build a new Walnut Depot deep in the South Bronx south of 138th St east of Bruckner Blvd. You don't lose anything out of it but take anything south of 149th st or 163rd St. Tiffany St can be an annexed depot to West farms/Gun Hill for their SBS bus routes if you wanna free up some artics. Besides Tiffany, there is an abandoned warehouse on Randall Ave near Tiffany St or Garrison St where they can build a depot that can easily hold about 95 buses if you wanna go that route.   

[Future ENY OP]

6 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

Wait. You mention that Casey Stengal closes, does anyone in the city realize that the depot is closer to the Corona Yard (7)? or have they forgotten about that.

As for Manhattanville, Columbia and the MTA will have to agree on something first before anything can happen. Utilizing other depots for services is not a way to do things, even if they wanna bunch routes to different depots. If this keeps happening like this, There could be one large depot in each borough to maintain 5,700 divided by 5.

I would say relocate manhattanville to at least 135th or 139th St west on Broadway. 

Easier said than done.. Forcing people out of apartments to build a new depot is certainty NOT the solution, and especially in Central & West Harlem.

 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

5 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Easier said than done.. Forcing people out of apartments to build a new depot is certainty NOT the solution, and especially in Central & West Harlem.

 

In a twist of irony, this idea is reminiscent of Robert Moses (who was bitterly opposed to public transportation).

[trainfan22]

To the posters saying a new depot should be built at the Hudson Pier location, they are rebuilding the building it was located at into something apart of Hudson River Park, so it's not available. 

[Future ENY OP]

1 hour ago, trainfan22 said:

To the posters saying a new depot should be built at the Hudson Pier location, they are rebuilding the building it was located at into something apart of Hudson River Park, so it's not available. 

Copy that. Good researching. 

[BusOperator3319]

In reference to what was stated about the land on 1st Avenue which stretches from E 38th-E 41st streets it use to be a ConEd power plant as per this article  http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/nyregion/prime-lot-empty-for-years-yes-this-is-manhattan.html don’t know how the City or the MTA missed this opportunity back in 2000

[Future ENY OP]

25 minutes ago, BusOperator3319 said:

In reference to what was stated about the land on 1st Avenue which stretches from E 38th-E 41st streets it use to be a ConEd power plant as per this article  http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/nyregion/prime-lot-empty-for-years-yes-this-is-manhattan.html don’t know how the City or the MTA missed this opportunity back in 2000

Definitely prime property. Hopefully they can jump on this now. 

[Union Tpke]

Here is the site. It still seems like nothing is going on here.

[MHV9218]

3 hours ago, BusOperator3319 said:

In reference to what was stated about the land on 1st Avenue which stretches from E 38th-E 41st streets it use to be a ConEd power plant as per this article  http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/nyregion/prime-lot-empty-for-years-yes-this-is-manhattan.html don’t know how the City or the MTA missed this opportunity back in 2000

 

3 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Definitely prime property. Hopefully they can jump on this now. 

 

Again, not in a million years is the MTA going to spend a billion plus on real estate in the commercial center of Manhattan next to one of the biggest tourist attractions in the city. It would be an objectively bad use of money, not to mention a complete PR disaster during days when the MTA takes a lot of heat for its costs.