SI Express Bus Plan Out!

[checkmatechamp13]

On 3/8/2018 at 4:32 AM, B35 via Church said:

The only part of the network that needed reconfiguring was the deep south shore network, large in part, due to the way the x23/24 serves the market & the way the x17/19/21/22 serves the market..... Current North Shore network OTOH, for starters, needs more service on those routes; it's the main reason you have as many of those residents making their way to Hylan.....

Reconfiguring the entire express bus network in SI reeks to me of eventual cuts.....

This reminds me: One of the issues they kept bringing up at the community board meetings/open houses is that they wanted to do away with the whole "Midtown via Downtown" routings, which (their words) was especially an issue on the North Shore. To be fair, they do have a valid point that it does create more unreliable service for those Downtown, and slower service for those in Midtown.

That being said, unlike the last rendition (which eliminated West Street service), I don't see anything in the peak plan that I majorly disagree with (again, as VG8 said, the spans and the frequencies will be the major issues). Off-peak is a different story. 

Though taking another look, I notice that all the Hylan routes start at the ETC, and nothing starts at New Dorp (the old plan at least had the X2 starting at Hylan & Richmond). With the crowds on the Hylan routes, that'll be a problem....

1 hour ago, FLX9304 said:

@checkmatechamp13 What are your predictions on what depot assignments will the SIM routes get, since there are 21 routes. who will go to where? known depots will be that SIM1 will be Yukon, SIM3 will be in Castleton, SIM2 would be out of Charleston and SIM30 out of Meredith. What will be the outlook on the predicted assignments?

I would guess it would be something like this:

Yukon: SIM1/4x/5/6/7/8x/10

Charleston: SIM2/4/8/22/25/26/31

Castleton: SIM3/35

Meredith: SIM15/30/32/33/34

Academy: SIM23/24

Though I did hear from a B/O that there's a rumor that Castleton may give up all the express lines and take some local lines from Yukon. I have no idea how true that is. (It would make some sense, since the S57/59 terminate a few blocks from Castleton but are based out of Yukon). 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

15 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The difference is that those buses have their one single stop on the Manhattan end. The closest resemblance would be those BxM7 AM trips that start from the different sections of Co-Op City.

Dude, you're just regurgitating exactly what I said. I made it pretty clear that those SI express buses make one stop on Staten Island and then go to Manhattan, and used the some Queens super express routes as examples that do the same thing, albeit in Manhattan en route to Queens at night.  You either don't read what is written or just like repeating the same thing.

[checkmatechamp13]

10 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Dude, you're just regurgitating exactly what I said. I made it pretty clear that those SI express buses make one stop on Staten Island and then go to Manhattan, and used the some Queens super express routes as examples that do the same thing, albeit in Manhattan en route to Queens at night.  You either don't read what is written or just like repeating the same thing.

 

The red text is where the difference lies. Having the single stop on the Manhattan end is different from having the single stop on the outer end of the route. On the Manhattan end, you have tons of people who can either walk or take a quick subway/local bus (or taxi for that matter) ride to catch the bus at that stop. If you do it at a park-and-ride (especially one such as the South Beach one in the middle of nowhere), you're solely dependent on people willing to park their cars at that stop.

I never disputed that (as far as the plan is presented) it appears that there will be one single stop on the Staten Island end.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The red text is where the difference lies. Having the single stop on the Manhattan end is different from having the single stop on the outer end of the route. On the Manhattan end, you have tons of people who can either walk or take a quick subway/local bus (or taxi for that matter) ride to catch the bus at that stop. If you do it at a park-and-ride (especially one such as the South Beach one in the middle of nowhere), you're solely dependent on people willing to park their cars at that stop.

I never disputed that (as far as the plan is presented) it appears that there will be one single stop on the Staten Island end.

That's a separate issue.  The example was used solely to point out express buses that make one pick-up and then go about their way since XcelsiorBoi seems to be under the impression that no express buses do such a thing.

[Cait Sith]

Those park & ride expresses seems to me like they pulled a page out of NJ Transit's book. They have routes that start at a Park & Ride (the 139 from Old Bridge, for example) and goes straight into Manhattan.

I wonder if those trips are meant for quicker turnarounds......

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, Cait Sith said:

Those park & ride expresses seems to me like they pulled a page out of NJ Transit's book. They have routes that start at a Park & Ride (the 139 from Old Bridge, for example) and goes straight into Manhattan.

I wonder if those trips are meant for quicker turnarounds......

Maybe, but this will be an absolute mess if they pull the BS that they currently do along Father Capodanno.  There are so many complaints about missing buses, and when they do come people can't get on them!  I'm really curious about the frequencies of those routes since they clearly give riders fewer alternatives.  If those buses don't show up, it's going to be pure hell.  They routinely would simply not fill trips on various lines, and in the past it wasn't so bad because either the frequencies weren't that bad, OR you had an alternative or alternatives.  

The other thing that they seem to be trying to do is pull express bus service off of Hylan Blvd which isn't a good idea.  You're forcing people to go over to Father Capodanno which is more isolated, which again means they'll be driving.  I have to wonder about their logic. I really do.  

[Orion6025]

Regarding the "SIM_X" service: if they wanted to provide faster service, couldn't they just split up the route into two different types of buses like commuter rail? For the buses making a ton of pickups on hylan and capodanno, could they just have one bus do one half of the pickup then go nonstop to manhattan, then have another bus do the remaining half and go into manhattan? And then of course for the afternoon peak, run the same service setup where Bus A makes all stops to the midway (or wherever logical) point of the SI run then Bus B skips all of Bus A's dropoff points, and stops at the rest of its own dropoff points until it hits the terminal?

[Dan1]

12 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The other thing that they seem to be trying to do is pull express bus service off of Hylan Blvd which isn't a good idea.  You're forcing people to go over to Father Capodanno which is more isolated, which again means they'll be driving.  I have to wonder about their logic. I really do.  

Not only that but what if you work late or go out after work and have to get your car out of the isolated Capodanno park-and-ride at 10pm? Safe neighborhood but desolate is desolate.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, Dan1 said:

Not only that but what if you work late or go out after work and have to get your car out of the isolated Capodanno park-and-ride at 10pm? Safe neighborhood but desolate is desolate.

Yes... I feel like there's already enough people driving around on Staten Island to express buses as it is.  I mean parking was already a PITA.  You're going to have people fighting to park on side streets and you know how that goes.  We used to block out the space in front purposely and plenty of people on Staten Island do this.  I think they can make express bus service faster without forcing people to drive.  

[checkmatechamp13]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Maybe, but this will be an absolute mess if they pull the BS that they currently do along Father Capodanno.  There are so many complaints about missing buses and when they do come people can't get on them!  I'm really curious about the frequencies of those routes since they clearly give riders fewer alternatives.  If those buses don't show up, it's going to be pure hell.  They routinely would simply not fill trips on various lines and in the past it wasn't so bad because either the frequencies weren't that bad, OR you had an alternative.  

The other thing that they seem to be trying to do is pull express bus service off of Hylan Blvd which isn't a good idea.  You're forcing people to go over to Father Capodanno which is more isolated, which again means they'll be driving.  I have to wonder about their logic. I really do.  

2

In their October presentation, they said they would have 4 routes running every 4-5 minutes each down Hylan. In this rendition, they have the SIM5 running via Water Street instead of Church/Broadway, they have the SIM10 extended to the ETC and running via 6th Avenue instead of Madison, and they added the SIM7.

Probably what will happen is that they'll take some of the frequency they would've given to the SIM5 to provide service on the SIM7, and since they extended the SIM10 to the ETC, they'll take some service from the SIM6 to provide more service on that. So if that's the case, you'll end up with a little more service on Hylan overall.

Of course, the issue is that at certain times of rush hour, the X5 and X7 already run every 4-5 minutes, so hopefully at the height of rush hour, they're providing even more service than a bus every 4-5 minutes on those combined routes (and then there's the whole issue of the park-and-ride service taking resources too)

1 minute ago, Orion6025 said:

Regarding the "SIM_X" service: if they wanted to provide faster service, couldn't they just split up the route into two different types of buses like commuter rail? For the buses making a ton of pickups on hylan and capodanno, could they just have one bus do one half of the pickup then go nonstop to manhattan, then have another bus do the remaining half and go into manhattan? And then of course for the afternoon peak, run the same service setup where Bus A makes all stops to the midway (or wherever logical) point of the SI run then Bus B skips all of Bus A's dropoff points, and stops at the rest of its own dropoff points until it hits the terminal?

That's somewhat the case now along Hylan. Father Capodanno is being used as an unofficial bypass of the northern part of Hylan. It's not nonstop per se, but there's a reason the buses that start at the ETC (except for the X1) are the ones that run via Father Capodanno, while the New Dorp buses run via Hylan.

1 minute ago, Dan1 said:

Not only that but what if you work late or go out after work and have to get your car out of the isolated Capodanno park-and-ride at 10pm? Safe neighborhood but desolate is desolate.

Which also means you'll have to take the infrequent S51/52 to reach your car because there's no off-peak express bus serving it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's also interesting there's not one route that resembles the current X21. That's a new route and they're not even bothering with it.  My other question is with so many routes ending near Central Park South, where in the hell are all of these express bus going to lay over? There's already a good 6 - 7 express bus at a time laid up on Central Park South and along 6th Avenue near Central Park South.

[Dan1]

As others in this thread have noted the elimination of the New Dorp (Hylan Blvd & Tysens Lane) terminal in this latest plan will be problematic in the AM rush hour. I'm not buying the MTA's line about buses every 4 or 5 minutes. Even if it's true Hylan Blvd's morning crawl will screw up that fantasy and most of the seats will be gone by time the buses arrive at the Tysens Lane stop, with all the seats gone by Midland/Lincoln Ave. Express buses have started out in New Dorp since the late 1970s - early 1980s for a reason. New Dorp is roughly midpoint on the island and it makes sense to start some express routes there.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, Dan1 said:

As others in this thread have noted the elimination of the New Dorp (Hylan Blvd & Tysens Lane) terminal in this latest plan will be problematic in the AM rush hour. I'm not buying the MTA's line about buses every 4 or minutes. Even if it's true Hylan Blvd's morning crawl will screw up that fantasy and most of the seats will be gone by time the buses arrive at the Tysens Lane stop, with all the seats gone by Midland/Lincoln Ave. Express buses have started out in New Dorp since the late 1970s - early 1980s for a reason. New Dorp is roughly midpoint on the island and it makes sense to start some express routes there.

You would think they would've learned something with running the X1 every 4 minutes or so on Hylan.  One bus gets delayed and hell breaks loose.  I also think you're going to see more people going to Hylan and these other spots from the North Shore precisely because they keep cutting express bus service from the North Shore. Myself and several other people used to just get car service or drive to Hylan and get the express buses there.  It is so stupid what they are doing and it's so intentional.  People are not going to stop taking the express bus on Staten Island just because you try to starve the North Shore of service.  All they do is drive further south to Victory for the X12 or to Hylan or to the X17.  They have to know this.  You can get just about anywhere on the island by car in 15 minutes or so.

[checkmatechamp13]

3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's also interesting there's not one route that resembles the current X21. That's a new route and they're not even bothering with it.  My other question is with so many routes ending near Central Park South, where in the hell are all of these express bus going to lay over? There's already a good 6 - 7 express bus at a time laid up on Central Park South and along 6th Avenue near Central Park South.

The SIM22 most closely resembles the X21. It runs the same route on the Staten Island end (West Shore Expressway-Arthur Kill Road-Richmond Avenue), and takes the same route as the other "via NJ" routes in Manhattan.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The SIM22 most closely resembles the X21. It runs the same route on the Staten Island end (West Shore Expressway-Arthur Kill Road-Richmond Avenue), and takes the same route as the other "via NJ" routes in Manhattan.

Yeah but none of these routes go across 42nd.  They all go up 6th or up Madison in the morning.  That's something else I find troublesome is the amount of express buses being packed onto these two main streets when you already have a plethora of other express buses.

[Brillant93]

6 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

You're missing my whole point. Re-read what I said. I never said I was against the idea of park-and-rides.

I understand what you're saying but I was just saying this plan is sort of giving more options for people. To my understanding this park and ride is more so a test so if it does well they'll keep it if it fails they let it go. We need to give this time to play out. 

[checkmatechamp13]

12 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

I understand what you're saying but I was just saying this plan is sort of giving more options for people. To my understanding this park and ride is more so a test so if it does well they'll keep it if it fails they let it go. We need to give this time to play out. 

They have limited resources. Any bus being used to provide nonstop service to the park-and-ride is a bus that can't be used on the main route. If people end up driving to the park-and-ride because the regular buses are overcrowded (when they would've otherwise preferred to walk), is that really better?

[Brillant93]

1 hour ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

They have limited resources. Any bus being used to provide nonstop service to the park-and-ride is a bus that can't be used on the main route. If people end up driving to the park-and-ride because the regular buses are overcrowded (when they would've otherwise preferred to walk), is that really better?

If that’s the case they would stop the program. It’s an experiment. We have to try new things to see if they’ve work. I understand what you’re saying but this is an experiment. 

[FLX9304]

17 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

This reminds me: One of the issues they kept bringing up at the community board meetings/open houses is that they wanted to do away with the whole "Midtown via Downtown" routings, which (their words) was especially an issue on the North Shore. To be fair, they do have a valid point that it does create more unreliable service for those Downtown, and slower service for those in Midtown.

That being said, unlike the last rendition (which eliminated West Street service), I don't see anything in the peak plan that I majorly disagree with (again, as VG8 said, the spans and the frequencies will be the major issues). Off-peak is a different story. 

Though taking another look, I notice that all the Hylan routes start at the ETC, and nothing starts at New Dorp (the old plan at least had the X2 starting at Hylan & Richmond). With the crowds on the Hylan routes, that'll be a problem....

I would guess it would be something like this:

Yukon: SIM1/4x/5/6/7/8x/10

Charleston: SIM2/4/8/22/25/26/31

Castleton: SIM3/35

Meredith: SIM15/30/32/33/34

Academy: SIM23/24

Though I did hear from a B/O that there's a rumor that Castleton may give up all the express lines and take some local lines from Yukon. I have no idea how true that is. (It would make some sense, since the S57/59 terminate a few blocks from Castleton but are based out of Yukon). 

thanks for the input. Why give up both routes where their last stop is in front of the depot?

[checkmatechamp13]

21 minutes ago, FLX9304 said:

thanks for the input. Why give up both routes where their last stop is in front of the depot?

I guess that means they wouldn't need to store specialized MCI parts or have MCI-certified mechanics at Castleton, and there would be cost-savings as a result (again, assuming it's not just a rumor, which I'll assume it is for now)

[161 New York]

2 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I guess that means they wouldn't need to store specialized MCI parts or have MCI-certified mechanics at Castleton, and there would be cost-savings as a result (again, assuming it's not just a rumor, which I'll assume it is for now)

All SI depots (not 100% about Meredith) have MCI's, Yukon has a few 2 or 3.

I think the s59 is likely safe at Yukon because of the reliefs that are done steps away from the front door of the depot as well as the service levels as there is 16 straight runs (meaning these B/O's only do the s59). The s57 could be at play if I had to guess since it has only 5 straight runs.

[Orion6025]

2 hours ago, 161 New York said:

not 100% about Meredith)

Yeah, Meredith is Prevosts only now.

[Q43LTD]

Damn , you just find new ways to contradict yourselves. Especially with these routes being renumbered

[Future ENY OP]

14 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

Damn , you just find new ways to contradict yourselves. Especially with these routes being renumbered

If the was really smart. They could keep the X prefixes and since there's a open block with

X50-X59: North Shore Exp (Super Express/Off Peak/Weekend/Supplement routes: x43-x49)

X70-X79: Mid-Island Exp (Super Express/Off Peak/Weekend/Supplement routes: x82-x89)

X90-X99: South Shore Exp (Super Express/Off Peak/Weekend/Supplement routes: x100-x110)

I find this format a bit easier than what is being proposed.

 

[Dan1]

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

If the was really smart. They could keep the X prefixes and since there's a open block with

X50-X59: North Shore Exp (Super Express/Off Peak/Weekend/Supplement routes: x43-x49)

X70-X79: Mid-Island Exp (Super Express/Off Peak/Weekend/Supplement routes: x82-x89)

X90-X99: South Shore Exp (Super Express/Off Peak/Weekend/Supplement routes: x100-x110)

I find this format a bit easier than what is being proposed.

 

Somebody, somewhere in the MTA bureaucracy came up with the odd idea of using the 'SIM' prefix. You're absolutely right it makes much more sense to retain the 'X#' system, using new 'X' numbers to reinforce the idea that a new network is in place. For example the new Hylan 'SIM' routes could be re-designated 'X#' as follows:

SIM1    =    X70
SIM1C    =    X71 or X70C
SIM5    =    X75
SIM6    =    X76
SIM7    =    X77
SIM10    =    X85

Anyone know what the 'c' in 'SIM1c' signifies?