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SI Express Bus Plan Out!


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1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You're giving this plan wayyy too much credit without seeing the details.

That's not the plan. The plan is to maintain the current setup of Midtown via Downtown service during off-peak hours (aside from the new SIM2 off-peak service). I'm saying it would be better to reinvest those service hours into providing more coverage on Staten Island (where there's fewer alternatives) instead of more coverage in Manhattan (where there's more alternatives).

During rush hour, very few riders will have to transfer. Most will still have a one-seat ride available (in addition to the new one-seat rides that will be created). 

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3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

That's not the plan. The plan is to maintain the current setup of Midtown via Downtown service during off-peak hours (aside from the new SIM2 off-peak service). I'm saying it would be better to reinvest those service hours into providing more coverage on Staten Island (where there's fewer alternatives) instead of more coverage in Manhattan (where there's more alternatives).

Until the service planners are no longer overseen by the accountants, this will never happen.  The accountants only want to cut service, not improve it.

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Checkmatethechamp13, don't get me wrong. Except for the personal digs at me, I don't disagree with you; you make a lot of valid points.

But, I don't agree with you either.

For any service proposal, we must to know ALL of the positive impacts and ALL of the negative impacts in order to determine the correct actions to take.

But, I'm still skeptical.  Usually, NYCT's service planners refuse to negotiate with communities when their ideas meet opposition.  And, therefore, present their ideas on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.

Which is why we New Yorkers have to keep up the pressure during the last Open House, and eventual public hearing, in order for the service planners to continue refining this proposal to further minimize the negative impacts and further maximize the positive impacts.

Which is not much to ask.

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Checkmatethechamp13 wrote on Subchat:

The plan presented at the March 2018 meeting is completely different from the plan presented at the October 2017 meeting. As a Staten Island resident who uses the express buses, I think the MTA/Operations Planning did a good job compromising with the residents at the last meeting. They routed some buses down West Street and into Greenwich Village, down Water Street, and up 6th Avenue. They maintained the routing of the Great Kills express buses to provide better coverage, as opposed to straightening them out as originally planned. And they maintained service to Greenwich Village & Midtown on the weekends and off-peak (despite the fact that it was not in the best interest of the riders, it was a common complaint and so they gave in).

I do agree that they should've actually published the analysis in their report. But the rush hour plan is still relatively solid.

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My reply here:

The reality of the $6.50 express bus fare is due to the relatively higher costs associated with operating the services.  But most of those who use express bus service believe that they deserve a one-bus ride for the premium that they pay.  They are correct, and must not be punished.

Nonetheless, we must know ALL of the positive impacts and ALL of the negative impacts in order to determine the correct actions to take.

And, to keep up the pressure.

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5 minutes ago, dkupf said:

My reply here:

The reality of the $6.50 express bus fare is due to the relatively higher costs associated with operating the services.  But most of those who use express bus service believe that they deserve a one-bus ride for the premium that they pay.  They are correct, and must not be punished.

Nonetheless, we must know ALL of the positive impacts and ALL of the negative impacts in order to determine the correct actions to take.

And, to keep up the pressure.

 

As I said, 9,700 weekday SI express riders willingly transfer (myself and my father included). We would disagree with the idea that passengers "deserve" a one-seat ride. How about LIRR and Metro-North riders? They can't even get to Lower Manhattan without transferring to the subway and paying an extra fare (though the Freedom Ticket program should rectify that problem for some LIRR riders). 

Just so you know, I got a bunch of residents from Mariners Harbor/Arlington/Graniteville who will be attending the meeting, asking for off-peak express bus service to be truncated to Lower Manhattan, with the funds reinvested into expanding coverage on Staten Island. They simply believe they deserve a fast, reliable trip for $6.50, regardless of whether it requires a transfer. 

And since they're so focused on cutting service, why did they add an extra $1 million to the budget for the expanded off-peak service?

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3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

As I said, 9,700 weekday SI express riders willingly transfer (myself and my father included). We would disagree with the idea that passengers "deserve" a one-seat ride. How about LIRR and Metro-North riders? They can't even get to Lower Manhattan without transferring to the subway and paying an extra fare (though the Freedom Ticket program should rectify that problem for some LIRR riders).

Which is why I prefer the MTA to adopt a fare scheme that ends the fare discrimination between subway/SIR/local bus/limited bus/SBS and the LIRR/Metro-North within the NYC city limits.  But this won't happen, at least, until Metrocard is replaced.

3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Just so you know, I got a bunch of residents from Mariners Harbor/Arlington/Graniteville who will be attending the meeting, asking for off-peak express bus service to be truncated to Lower Manhattan, with the funds reinvested into expanding coverage on Staten Island. They simply believe they deserve a fast, reliable trip for $6.50, regardless of whether it requires a transfer.

As I stated before, Operations Planning (OP) is currently overseen by the accountants.  They only want to cut service, not improve it.

Based on this, I wouldn't be surprised if OP has a policy, documented or undocumented, to never reinvest any operating funds saved from a project into any other project.

And, as you know, most subway maintenance projects that force service diversions are done on weekends and nights.  It's only human nature to feel that the savings from the truncation of all off-peak express bus service would be offset by the actual and perceived inconveniences of these diversions.

4 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

And since they're so focused on cutting service, why did they add an extra $1 million to the budget for the expanded off-peak service?

This money came from Borough President James Oddo.  If he didn't give NYCT these funds, the service planners would have no choice but to take a cost-neutral approach instead.

Which is why we have to continue pressuring the service planners to further refine this proposal to minimize the negative impacts and maximize the positive impacts.

And, of course, for Andy Byford to make OP independent of the accountants.

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On 3/18/2018 at 8:51 PM, dkupf said:

I agree.

Operations Planning (OP) is a division of the Office of Management & Budget (OMB).  The Senior Vice President of this department reports to the Executive Vice President, who then reports to the NYCT President.  The OMB people are accountants.  They only want to cut service, not improve it.  This is why OP should be its own department under the Executive Vice President.

 

 

Operations Planning already is its own entity under the Executive VP and has been for several decades.

Meanwhile, OMB was recently moved away from the Executive VP and now reports to the Chief Financial Officer.

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11 hours ago, dkupf said:

Which is why I prefer the MTA to adopt a fare scheme that ends the fare discrimination between subway/SIR/local bus/limited bus/SBS and the LIRR/Metro-North within the NYC city limits.  But this won't happen, at least, until Metrocard is replaced.

As I stated before, Operations Planning (OP) is currently overseen by the accountants.  They only want to cut service, not improve it.

Based on this, I wouldn't be surprised if OP has a policy, documented or undocumented, to never reinvest any operating funds saved from a project into any other project.

And, as you know, most subway maintenance projects that force service diversions are done on weekends and nights.  It's only human nature to feel that the savings from the truncation of all off-peak express bus service would be offset by the actual and perceived inconveniences of these diversions.

This money came from Borough President James Oddo.  If he didn't give NYCT these funds, the service planners would have no choice but to take a cost-neutral approach instead.

Which is why we have to continue pressuring the service planners to further refine this proposal to minimize the negative impacts and maximize the positive impacts.

And, of course, for Andy Byford to make OP independent of the accountants.

Right, but at the same time, you're ignoring the fact that regardless of the fare structure, you still have to physically transfer to reach Lower Manhattan from the LIRR or Metro-North. (For that matter, look at the entire Bronx express network. Only one line runs to Lower Manhattan, and that's a rush hour line). 

Not sure where you get the idea of them not being allowed to reinvest operating funds saved into other projects. This past January, they stated they would be taking the savings from the (overall) headway reductions and putting it towards the B82 SBS project. Whether that's the best use of those funds is another question, but those funds are being reinvested.

Yes, I'm aware that most subway maintenance projects occur on the weekends. I'm also aware that most parades and service disruptions in Midtown occur on the weekends. Like I said, there's days I'm wondering if the Staten Island buses are being used as floats in the parades (especially on Sundays), since you can wait a long time (sometimes an hour) before you see a pack of X1, X10, and X17 buses all together.

And where's your source that the money came from the Borough President? My understanding from speaking with the planners is that they negotiated with their budget department for additional funding. 

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15 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Operations Planning already is its own entity under the Executive VP and has been for several decades.

Meanwhile, OMB was recently moved away from the Executive VP and now reports to the Chief Financial Officer.

Do you have any insights as to why the service planners are so indifferent to the public?  Any solutions?  I wish to know ASAP.

================================================================================================================

This coming November 12, 2018 will be the 40th Anniversary of those bus service changes in Southern Brooklyn.  On that day, in 1978, ten interlinked routes were changed.  Those changes are proof that the comprehensive approach works.  In fact, most of those changes were very successful.  Unfortunately, those changes were only part of what were originally proposed.

Most bus routes in the outer boroughs are based on old trolley routes from the first half of the 20th Century.  But why does NYC have an antiquated bus route network?  Why does NYCT usually refuse to conduct comprehensive studies?  The answer: the service planners refuse to negotiate with affected communities when their ideas meet opposition.  They also present their ideas on a take-it-or-leave-it basis, resulting in no changes being made.

For example, let's look at southwest Brooklyn, in the neighborhood of Sunset Park, at the B70 bus route.  It operates north-south via 8th Avenue.  East of the B70, in the Borough Park neighborhood, is Maimonides Medical Center, one of the largest hospitals in Brooklyn, and an institution for over 100 years; it still doesn't have north-south bus service.

Though Stephen Dobrow passed away in January 2002, the Committee for Better Transit (CBT) believed that there was a solution.  In 2003, CBT made a presentation to the New York Metropolitan Transportation Council (www.nymtc.org) as part of the Southern Brooklyn Transportation Investment Study (SBTIS).  CBT took into account many of the surrounding communities' concerns plus origin/destination surveys, and turned it into a plan that would make southern Brooklyn's bus network simpler and easier to understand.  (For details, go to http://brooklynbus.tripod.com/  Yes, the website hasn't been updated for 12 years, still shows the B23, and doesn't show service after the merger with MTA Bus. But, the proposal is all there.)

CBT received a standing ovation, except for NYCT.

The SBTIS's Transit Subcommittee recommended half of what CBT had proposed.  NYCT subsequently decided to dismiss those recommendations without a proper evaluation.

NYCT claimed that local bus service can't operate in the Gravesend neighborhood, via Avenues W and X, because they're residential streets.  CBT inserted this proposal in order to test NYCT's service planners if they took CBT's ideas seriously.  If they did, they would have realized, in this neighborhood, that Avenues W and X aren't through streets!

In the SBTIS, NYCT's service planners claimed, time and time again, that there was, and is, significant demand for the present route structure in southern Brooklyn.  But for what reasons?   Why are the bus routes in Borough Park routed the way they are?  Until the 1940's there was no bridge to connect 13th Avenue over the N Train's right of way, and Maimonides Medical Center was a small hospital with a different name.  Trolley routes were routed based on these constraints.  When 13th Avenue was finally connected, Maimonides Medical Center became the hospital it resembles today, and the trolley routes became bus routes, the route paths were never changed.  The result is service gaps that actually inhibit transferring, causing people to make indirect trips.  Time is wasted and mass transit use is discouraged.

In other words, the planning process could be more holistic than myopic, more proactive than reactive, if NYCT's service planners would use tried-and-true methodologies plus a little bit of common sense.

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On 3/19/2018 at 6:45 PM, B35 via Church said:

I can't remember the last time I've taken the (SI) ferry, it's been so long.... How long is that ride nowadays anyway?

I'd like to try out some of those NYC ferry services sometime though.

25 min when it’s not the JFK.

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On 20/3/2018 at 6:30 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

That's not the plan. The plan is to maintain the current setup of Midtown via Downtown service during off-peak hours (aside from the new SIM2 off-peak service). I'm saying it would be better to reinvest those service hours into providing more coverage on Staten Island (where there's fewer alternatives) instead of more coverage in Manhattan (where there's more alternatives).

During rush hour, very few riders will have to transfer. Most will still have a one-seat ride available (in addition to the new one-seat rides that will be created). 

I didn't say it was. What I said was you're giving this plan (meaning the entire plan) too much credit without knowing the details.

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11 hours ago, Deucey said:

25 min when it’s not the JFK.

What do most people getting off the ferry gravitate towards? Do they go mostly to the (R)(W)(1) due to convenience, or take a hike to the (4)(5) for faster service to Midtown? And I guess the M15 Select is there but I'd be surprised if anyone takes that for any long distance since it's slower than the subway.

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2 hours ago, P3F said:

What do most people getting off the ferry gravitate towards? Do they go mostly to the (R)(W)(1) due to convenience, or take a hike to the (4)(5) for faster service to Midtown? And I guess the M15 Select is there but I'd be surprised if anyone takes that for any long distance since it's slower than the subway.

I will say this. If you want West side service: (1)(R)(W) at Whitehall with transfers to the (2)(3) express at Chambers via (1)

and 14th Street (N)(Q) Express via the (R)(W).  East Side Service: (4)(5), since those are express you have a better chance to getting to midtown quicker.

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2 hours ago, P3F said:

What do most people getting off the ferry gravitate towards? Do they go mostly to the (R)(W)(1) due to convenience, or take a hike to the (4)(5) for faster service to Midtown? And I guess the M15 Select is there but I'd be surprised if anyone takes that for any long distance since it's slower than the subway.

Plenty of people will hoof it to the (4)(5). It's not that bad of a walk.  The rest go to the (1) and then the (R)(W).  Me personally I dreaded the (R) the most.  It runs like crap and I always seem to just miss one so I have a long wait for the next one.

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5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I didn't say it was. What I said was you're giving this plan (meaning the entire plan) too much credit without knowing the details.

Like I said, I'm still not happy with the off-peak plan, and I still see some flaws in the peak plan, so I'm not saying it's perfect but I do like it overall.

4 hours ago, P3F said:

What do most people getting off the ferry gravitate towards? Do they go mostly to the (R)(W)(1) due to convenience, or take a hike to the (4)(5) for faster service to Midtown? And I guess the M15 Select is there but I'd be surprised if anyone takes that for any long distance since it's slower than the subway.

 

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

I will say this. If you want West side service: (1)(R)(W) at Whitehall with transfers to the (2)(3) express at Chambers via (1)

and 14th Street (N)(Q) Express via the (R)(W).  East Side Service: (4)(5), since those are express you have a better chance to getting to midtown quicker.

Beat me to it. And yeah, the M15 +SBS+ definitely sees its share of usage but I would assume most of those riders are using it for short distances.

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3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Beat me to it. And yeah, the M15 +SBS+ definitely sees its share of usage but I would assume most of those riders are using it for short distances.

Here's what's I'm going to say with the +M15SBS+ from the south ferry. If you want Lower East Side, Chinatown, 14th & 23rd sts. SBS is excellent.

Anything beyond 23rd and 1st. You are better off with the trains. 1st Avenue traffic tends to tie up at 34th, 42nd. However, the biggest chokepoint is from 57th-72nd. Hospital Alley, plus with a stop on 68th and 1st when traffic really tends to tie up with the ambulances that fly down 68th to get into Cornell Med.

This is from observation.

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I realized something about the SIM31: Since the Manhattan routing was changed, it's losing a decent amount of transfer points to the subway. Right now, it connects to all the West Side subway lines along 34th/42nd Street, but under this proposal, it only has a direct connection with the (6) train at 23rd & Park. (Northbound, it's a short walk to the (7) at 42nd Street and the (R)(W) at Broadway & 23rd and southbound, it's basically right there, so I suppose you can count those as well).

But still, the lack of access to the 7th & 8th Avenue Lines makes it harder to reach West Midtown and the Upper West Side. The other FDR lines don't have that issue (the SIM3 has the SIM34/35 for Downtown service, and runs up 6th Avenue anyway, and the SIM6 has the SIM1/5/7/10 as alternatives. The SIM32/33 cover Gannon Avenue, and the SIM4/8 cover New Springville, but no other express bus covers Heartland Village or the portions of Willowbrook solely covered by the X31/SIM31). What I propose is to have the SIM31 run across 57th Street to terminate at either Columbus Circle (if there's space)  or 57th & 11th to provide better subway connections.

I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but at the meetings, they mentioned that they acknowledged that they won't have space to terminate all those buses at Worth & Broadway or 57th & 5th directly, so they will likely have a route that takes the current X3/4 route to the World Financial Center instead of terminating at Worth Street, and a couple of routes that terminate at 57th & 3rd instead of 57th & 5th or 57th & Madison. So having the SIM31 terminate on the West Side would address this issue as well. 

Also, the logic of not having service across 57th Street was for greater flexibility on run-ons/run-offs (but as mentioned, some level of East Side service will likely be provided due to layover space constraints). 

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42 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I hTe that damn boat. Old outdated... Can't believe they're running that garbage. The new boats aren't much better though. Just bigger seats. lol

I like the two that don’t have the space to haul cars - Newhouse and Barberi I think.

Been caught having to stand up on the JFK and the new ones, and Newhouse and Barberi don’t coast into the slip. Saves time when you gotta catch that train.

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1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I hTe that damn boat. Old outdated... Can't believe they're running that garbage. The new boats aren't much better though. Just bigger seats. lol

It may be old, but it's also the most reliable of the ferries.....the new ones are lemons, as they always have electrical problems.

Hopefully, the newer ferries that will be coming will be better than the Molinari-Class garbage

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On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 7:01 AM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Operations Planning already is its own entity under the Executive VP and has been for several decades.

Meanwhile, OMB was recently moved away from the Executive VP and now reports to the Chief Financial Officer.

I talked to some from OP about that during the March 22 Open House.  They were glad that this happened.

BTW, Chief Planner Peter Cafiero looked as cold and indifferent as he usually does at the MTA Committee and Board meetings.  I always avoid confronting him when he's in my line of vision.

In fact, I don't even try to give him any handouts or flyers.  Based on his personality, he'll probably throw them in the garbage.

Don't get me wrong.  According to BrooklynBus, he's a subway buff to the core.  He mentioned to me that Mr. Cafiero once took the quiz at www.thejoekorner.com.  BrooklynBus said he scored in the 60's; Mr. Cafiero scored a 91!

But, he knows little about buses.  Which makes me wonder as to why he was promoted to Chief Planner.  Seniority?  Retirements?  Others turned it down?

I wonder if my perception of Mr. Cafiero is correct.  Please educate me.

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8 hours ago, dkupf said:

...Don't get me wrong.  According to BrooklynBus, he's a subway buff to the core.  He mentioned to me that Mr. Cafiero once took the quiz at www.thejoekorner.com.  BrooklynBus said he scored in the 60's; Mr. Cafiero scored a 91!...

To clarify, www.thejoekorner.com has an extremely difficult subway trivia quiz.  BrooklynBus told me that he thought he knew enough about the subway system, and decided to try it.  (Of course, BrooklynBus did so while at home on his computer.)  He only scored in the 60's.

According to BrooklynBus, he mentioned the score he had to one of his colleagues and heard, through the rumor mill, that Peter Cafiero also took a similar quiz on the same website, and scored 91!

BrooklynBus said to me that he couldn't believe it; he was impressed.

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22 minutes ago, aemoreira81 said:

With this, all other boroughs need to have their express route nomenclatures changed to match the MTA Bus scheme, since that's apparently what won out here.

You're focused on this instead of better service... Such an non-issue and waste of money...

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12 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You're focused on this instead of better service... Such an non-issue and waste of money...

They probably figured NYCDOT changes the signs on the poles and they have to print out new maps and schedules anyway, so the only real cost is reprogramming the signs (which have to be reprogrammed anyway since most of the routes are seeing some type of change)

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