42nd Street Shuttle Update

[Lance]

On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 8:26 AM, Lawrence St said:

I still think removing Track 4 would be a really bad idea if it's going to sever the connection to 7th Avenue, especially in today's mess of both 7th Avenue and Lex Avenue. If they were really smart, they would reconfigure the tracks to allow trains on both 7th Av and Lex Av to cross over, eliminating the need for the  to run over the  and bypass 7th Av completely, and vice versa. 

See my previous comment for the reasons why such a route would be unfeasible. Suffice it to say, the infrastructure does not exist for a hybrid original style/H-System setup. Not without tearing apart the entire area to build such a connection. Just as I've told Wallyhorse many of times, creating a route connection for the sole purpose of rerouting trains in an emergency situation is not a good use of limited funds. Besides, even if such a project was undertaken, it would only provide an alternative route for a train rerouted via 7th Avenue and would do nothing for the  trains rerouted to Lexington Ave. That's even more of a waste of funds because whenever the is sent down 7th Avenue, riders can easily transfer upstairs for the  at 149 St-Grand Concourse.

18 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

@Union Tpke Didn't you mention in another thread that the Shuttle was having one of it's tracks removed and the trains were going to be lengthen to 6 cars?

To elaborate, track 4 (the northernmost track along the shuttle) is slated to be removed as part of the reconstruction and the platforms at Times Square are to be extended eastward to facilitate longer trains and a transfer to the 6th Avenue line.

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, Lance said:

To elaborate, track 4 (the northernmost track along the shuttle) is slated to be removed as part of the reconstruction and the platforms at Times Square are to be extended eastward to facilitate longer trains and a transfer to the 6th Avenue line.

So it's specifically going to be a two track - two island platform setup, or a two-track setup with a Spanish Solution at each end?

[Lance]

That I don't know, though if I had to guess, they'd probably use one large platform between tracks 1 and 3 to save on costs.

[TheNewYorkElevated]

Question is, how will Track 4 be removed? Any time frame for when the massive rehabilitation will begin? 

[Gong Gahou]

3 hours ago, Lance said:

...if I had to guess, they'd probably use one large platform between tracks 1 and 3 to save on costs.

If that is the case (and I believe they will be using one large platform), then it has to be in-between tracks 1 and 4. I don't know whether it was officially stated that the entirety of Track 4 would be decommissioned, but, if the contract information listed in the OP is to be believed, the platform cannot be situated between tracks 1 and 3. One piece of information is being overlooked: that the platform is to be 28 feet wide. Considering the tunnel construction for the Contract I subway, along with the fact that the station lies on a curve, a 28' platform must take up at least two trackways,

[officiallyliam]

1 hour ago, Gong Gahou said:

If that is the case (and I believe they will be using one large platform), then it has to be in-between tracks 1 and 4. I don't know whether it was officially stated that the entirety of Track 4 would be decommissioned, but, if the contract information listed in the OP is to be believed, the platform cannot be situated between tracks 1 and 3. One piece of information is being overlooked: that the platform is to be 28 feet wide. Considering the tunnel construction for the Contract I subway, along with the fact that the station lies on a curve, a 28' platform must take up at least two trackways,

If I remember correctly, the trackways will actually be straightened in Times Square, so the shuttle platforms will no longer be on a curve. This will eliminate the gap fillers and make the shuttle fully accessible.

A Spanish Solution layout could also be nice, but they never seem to work in New York for some reason, so most of the ones that were designed are now closed (the IRT Bronx terminals, and 59th Street IND).

[Trainmaster5]

2 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

If I remember correctly, the trackways will actually be straightened in Times Square, so the shuttle platforms will no longer be on a curve. This will eliminate the gap fillers and make the shuttle fully accessible.

 

That's the way I read the proposal. The new platforms will be constructed further east, toward the Grand Central station. The length of the platform would have to be limited to the length of the existing one at Grand Central unless that end is modified too. Since the existing shuttle allocation is 10 cars I'm guessing that the new setup will be 5+5 . Just my opinion though. Carry on.

[Gong Gahou]

2 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

If I remember correctly, the trackways will actually be straightened in Times Square, so the shuttle platforms will no longer be on a curve. This will eliminate the gap fillers and make the shuttle fully accessible.

1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

That's the way I read the proposal. The new platforms will be constructed further east, toward the Grand Central station. The length of the platform would have to be limited to the length of the existing one at Grand Central unless that end is modified too. Since the existing shuttle allocation is 10 cars I'm guessing that the new setup will be 5+5 .

After re-reading the contract description, I agree. Extending the platform 360 feet to the east of the current center platform would be more than enough for a five- or six-car train and place the new platform along the straight portion of the tunnel. I also did some calculations and found out that 28 feet is the width of the platform across two tangent tracks; it will be wider if situated on curves.

[B35 via Church]

Discontinue the 42nd st  due to existence of the  ? What in the worl.....

Yeah, time for me to start counting fallling snowflakes....

There's 1... 2...3....

....7....

[Lance]

But he was just joking...

[Deucey]

So here’s what I’m wondering after taking  today:

if the western end is RIGHT ON the 7th Av line, why aren’t the eastern end tracks closer to the Lex Line?

[bobtehpanda]

On 3/19/2018 at 5:49 PM, officiallyliam said:

If I remember correctly, the trackways will actually be straightened in Times Square, so the shuttle platforms will no longer be on a curve. This will eliminate the gap fillers and make the shuttle fully accessible.

A Spanish Solution layout could also be nice, but they never seem to work in New York for some reason, so most of the ones that were designed are now closed (the IRT Bronx terminals, and 59th Street IND).

Spanish solutions generally do not work because they increase dwells and infrastructure requirements a la the ADA.

[MysteriousBtrain]

4 hours ago, Deucey said:

So here’s what I’m wondering after taking  today:

if the western end is RIGHT ON the 7th Av line, why aren’t the eastern end tracks closer to the Lex Line?

My guess would be that lex operates under a "lower level" and when it was built in 1917 the original tracks formed a flying junction rather than be at-grade.

[Lawrence St]

On 3/21/2018 at 10:26 AM, B35 via Church said:

Discontinue the 42nd st  due to existence of the  ? What in the worl.....

Yeah, time for me to start counting fallling snowflakes....

There's 1... 2...3....

....7....

Since we still doing this, THE SHUTTLE ISN'T NEEDED! IT'S A WASTE!

*waits for people to get triggered*

[Lance]

13 hours ago, Deucey said:

So here’s what I’m wondering after taking  today:

if the western end is RIGHT ON the 7th Av line, why aren’t the eastern end tracks closer to the Lex Line?

When the Lexington Ave line was built in the 1910s, the line had to curve eastward at a 45 degree angle to avoid what is now the Metro-North tracks at Grand Central Terminal, forcing the Grand Central subway station for Lexington Ave to be further east of the current shuttle platform. Also, the original shuttle platform is under Park and Madison Aves due to how the original subway curved to hit 42nd Street, whereas the Lexington Ave platforms are situated on an angle between Park and Lexington Aves. The 1910s southern extension of 7th Avenue didn't have any such restriction, allowing the shuttle platforms and the ones for 7th Avenue to be right next to each other. 

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Since we still doing this, THE SHUTTLE ISN'T NEEDED! IT'S A WASTE!

*waits for people to get triggered*

Must you?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, Lance said:

When the Lexington Ave line was built in the 1910s, the line had to curve eastward at a 45 degree angle to avoid what is now the Metro-North tracks at Grand Central Terminal, forcing the Grand Central subway station for Lexington Ave to be further east of the current shuttle platform. Also, the original shuttle platform is under Park and Madison Aves due to how the original subway curved to hit 42nd Street, whereas the Lexington Ave platforms are situated on an angle between Park and Lexington Aves. The 1910s southern extension of 7th Avenue didn't have any such restriction, allowing the shuttle platforms and the ones for 7th Avenue to be right next to each other. 

That's an interesting observation and one I've thought about myself because getting to the subway at Grand Central is quite a trek with the stairs and walking and walking and walking and meandering. It's a PITA to be honest unless you are coming from say 3rd Avenue or Lexington. I am happy to see that they've opened a few more entrances though.

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Since we still doing this, THE SHUTTLE ISN'T NEEDED! IT'S A WASTE!

*waits for people to get triggered*

*waits for you to stop being triggered*

[Italianstallion]

8 hours ago, Lance said:

When the Lexington Ave line was built in the 1910s, the line had to curve eastward at a 45 degree angle to avoid what is now the Metro-North tracks at Grand Central Terminal, forcing the Grand Central subway station for Lexington Ave to be further east of the current shuttle platform. Also, the original shuttle platform is under Park and Madison Aves due to how the original subway curved to hit 42nd Street, whereas the Lexington Ave platforms are situated on an angle between Park and Lexington Aves. The 1910s southern extension of 7th Avenue didn't have any such restriction, allowing the shuttle platforms and the ones for 7th Avenue to be right next to each other. 

 

I sorta get that, but still . . .when you exit the shuttle at GC, you see a long straight passageway extending from the shuttle platform to the Lex line. I've never been clear why the shuttle tracks could not be extended further along that passageway to get closer to the Lex.

[Lance]

They probably could somewhat, as long as it didn't affect the passageway.

Courtesy: Project Subway NYC

Neither of the shuttle platforms have really changed from their original layouts in the early 1900s. Grand Central has a better layout in part due to the rebuild of the station following the 1964 fire, but beyond that, there hasn't been any effort to shorten the distance between the shuttle platform and the rest of the station.

[Deucey]

7 minutes ago, Lance said:

They probably could somewhat, as long as it didn't affect the passageway.

Courtesy: Project Subway NYC

Neither of the shuttle platforms have really changed from their original layouts in the early 1900s. Grand Central has a better layout in part due to the rebuild of the station following the 1964 fire, but beyond that, there hasn't been any effort to shorten the distance between the shuttle platform and the rest of the station.

Any chance that, despite the passageway being former trackbed, that the  tunnel’s construction makes it structurally risky to extend the shuttle?

[kosciusko]

What's going to happen to the  stop at 5th ave now that Times Square and Bryant Park stations are going to be connected?

It seems silly have the same train stop twice at the same station.

[Lance]

Nothing. The shuttle reconstruction has nothing to do with the  or its stops at 5 Avenue or Times Square. If the connection to Sixth Avenue is within fare control, they may include a transfer announcement to/from the shuttle at 5 Avenue/42 St-Bryant Park. Beyond that, there is no reason to change anything else.

[RR503]

On 3/28/2018 at 1:51 AM, bobtehpanda said:

Spanish solutions generally do not work because they increase dwells and infrastructure requirements a la the ADA.

Interestingly, though, Boston manages to operate its subway with Spanish solution style platforms. I know Park Street on the Red Line has that layout, and they Just tell wheelchair passengers which platform to exit onto. As for dwell, yes, you're dealing with two sides of passengers holding doors, but with good platform controllers, that doesn't have to be such a big issue. 

[Lawrence St]

Can we just automate the shuttle?

[paulrivera]

55 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Can we just automate the shuttle?

They did that in the 1960s but the idea was scrapped after the equipment was lost in a fire.

Although if they *do* realign the tracks, I wonder if they could get the shuttle CBTC ready while each track goes OOS...