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Union Tpke

Systemwide CBTC - Planning and Implementation

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10 hours ago, P3F said:

And it's still glitchy as heck. Last night at DeKalb, this was the order of trains displayed:

1. (N) 3 mins

2. (R) 20 mins

3. (D) 2 mins

4. (Q) 4 mins.

5. (D) 16 mins.

My guess is that the computer doesn't dynamically update the order of incoming trains.

Those clocks are horrible.  Jumping from 5 minutes to 3 minutes, being stuck at 2 minutes for a period of 3 minutes, etc.  Hopefully ATS will improve reliability (although there are some spots in Midtown that aren't too great--looking at you, Penn Station (1)(2)(3) ).

Something that should be noted (if it hasn't been already) is that the B division will be significantly harder than the A division.  More tracks, more permutations of reroutes, and more major interlockings.  Given how long it took for the A division, I'm not too optimistic about it being installed on the B division when they say it will be.

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14 hours ago, CenSin said:

Unless these things are being coded in an assembly language, the fact that such a trivial feature is unimplemented is rather shocking. Does the MTA not have tech-savvy interns to do this kind of work?

Have you seen their in-house work? Their SubwayTime and Weekender apps should tell you all you need to know about how tech savvy the agency is.

12 hours ago, Bosco said:

Those clocks are horrible.  Jumping from 5 minutes to 3 minutes, being stuck at 2 minutes for a period of 3 minutes, etc.  Hopefully ATS will improve reliability (although there are some spots in Midtown that aren't too great--looking at you, Penn Station (1)(2)(3) ).

Something that should be noted (if it hasn't been already) is that the B division will be significantly harder than the A division.  More tracks, more permutations of reroutes, and more major interlockings.  Given how long it took for the A division, I'm not too optimistic about it being installed on the B division when they say it will be.

As the sensors are only at the ends of stations, until the train connects with a new beacon, the clocks will only "know" that the train passed the last beacon and calculate the amount of time that it takes to get to the next one. It's not a sophisticated setup, far from it.

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18 minutes ago, HenryB said:

I have a question.....does that mean (MTA) could remove those freaking timers after ATS installation? -_- 

ATS centralizes dispatching. It is not a train control system. The IRT still has its fluff timers and it has had ATS for years.

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On 3/30/2018 at 4:24 AM, Amtrak706 said:

ATS centralizes dispatching. It is not a train control system. The IRT still has its fluff timers and it has had ATS for years.

This.  This is also the answer to the question, "What's the difference between ATS and CBTC?"  Unfortunately, the IRT still relies on the same fixed-block signaling technology as the rest of the system (minus the punch boxes).

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On 3/26/2018 at 11:03 AM, P3F said:

And it's still glitchy as heck. Last night at DeKalb, this was the order of trains displayed:

1. (N) 3 mins

2. (R) 20 mins

3. (D) 2 mins

4. (Q) 4 mins.

5. (D) 16 mins.

My guess is that the computer doesn't dynamically update the order of incoming trains.

 

On 3/26/2018 at 7:01 PM, CenSin said:

Unless these things are being coded in an assembly language, the fact that such a trivial feature is unimplemented is rather shocking. Does the MTA not have tech-savvy interns to do this kind of work?

 

On 3/27/2018 at 9:47 AM, Lance said:

Have you seen their in-house work? Their SubwayTime and Weekender apps should tell you all you need to know about how tech savvy the agency is.

As the sensors are only at the ends of stations, until the train connects with a new beacon, the clocks will only "know" that the train passed the last beacon and calculate the amount of time that it takes to get to the next one. It's not a sophisticated setup, far from it.

Neither the clocks nor SubwayTime were in-house work - also the clocks are the same thing as subwaytime. Literally, the b-div clocks are just displaying a webpage. I've seen them stalled at a chrome error. 

There's a central server that parses the GTFS-realtime feed from the MTA to JSON and then the clocks have a javascript client side solution that renders the JSON "nicely". 

I was trying to dig into it and see if I could get a URL that would display the station-clock in your own browser but I couldn't figure that one out. Figured out some other stuff though. 

For instance, why the damn subway-time app on the phone is so bad about dynamically updating. 

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Just do not hold y'all breath waiting now....

They got lots of work to do i say 2022 at least for the Queens Blvd Line.

I see they are building a relay at Kings Highway for the F so im guessing CBTC will be in effect from Jay to Stillwell on the Fox.

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wouldn't the smart thing to do is put CBTC on the J and Z line? They're also isolated but my guess would be being how the L train is going to be shut down next year they won't have the time to try and upgrade the signaling. 

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On 3/31/2018 at 7:53 PM, Bosco said:

 "What's the difference between ATS and CBTC?" 

While you weren't asking, here are definitions for both for the people who are asking:

Communications-based train control (CBTC) is a railway signaling system that makes use of the telecommunications between the train and track equipment for the traffic management and infrastructure control. By means of the CBTC systems, the exact position of a train is known more accurately than with the traditional signaling systems. This results in a more efficient and safe way to manage the railway traffic. Metros (and other railway systems) are able to improve headways while maintaining or even improving safety.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-based_train_control 

 ATS: The subsystem within automatic train control that monitors trains, adjusts the performance of individual trains to maintain schedules, and provides data for adjusting service to minimize the inconveniences otherwise caused by irregularities. May also be used for systems that merely display train status and rely on staff intervention for any corrective action. 

From https://definedterm.com/automatic_train_supervision_ats 

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On 3/26/2018 at 9:14 PM, Bosco said:

Those clocks are horrible.  Jumping from 5 minutes to 3 minutes, being stuck at 2 minutes for a period of 3 minutes, etc.  

Maybe the latter train really is at a location two minutes away, and it's been stuck there for three minutes.

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On 3/26/2018 at 9:14 PM, Bosco said:

Something that should be noted (if it hasn't been already) is that the B division will be significantly harder than the A division.  More tracks, more permutations of reroutes, and more major interlockings.  Given how long it took for the A division, I'm not too optimistic about it being installed on the B division when they say it will be.

 

The bigger problem is Department of Subways upper management still refuses to allow maintenance of the old signals because the new ones are "only a year away"

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1 hour ago, EphraimB said:

Which lines have CBTC right now? I know that the (L) has it. Does the (7) have CBTC as well?

Apparently not, because something delayed it

Edited by LGA Link N train

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38 minutes ago, EphraimB said:

When will the (7) get CBTC?

December (?) of this year -- depends on how fast they unf*ck installation and software bugs. System is currently active 74-Willets Pt and on the middle from 74-33rd (someone plz correct me if I have this wrong). 

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56 minutes ago, EphraimB said:

When will the (7) get CBTC?

The real question is:  When will they flip the switch and finally allow the new signals to do their job? It's difficult to believe the new signals are being used when trains are held outside of Main Street because of the same "signal problems" every single day for years on end.

Edited by Gotham Bus Co.

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20 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

The real question is:  When will they flip the switch and finally allow the new signals to do their job? It's difficult to believe the new signals are being used when trains are held outside of Main Street because of the same "signal problems" every single day for years on end.

I don’t believe the ride has improved much. Are the train operators manually operating tens of miles per hour under the speed limit or something despite CBTC giving the permission to go full throttle?

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5 minutes ago, CenSin said:

I don’t believe the ride has improved much. Are the train operators manually operating tens of miles per hour under the speed limit or something despite CBTC giving the permission to go full throttle?

Yes, and some are actually stopping at every green signal.

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On 4/28/2018 at 9:50 AM, RTOMan said:

Just do not hold y'all breath waiting now....

They got lots of work to do i say 2022 at least for the Queens Blvd Line.

I see they are building a relay at Kings Highway for the F so im guessing CBTC will be in effect from Jay to Stillwell on the Fox.

I think it’s only Church to Stillwell. Church to Carroll got new signals with the Culver Viaduct project and I don’t think they are CBTC ready. North of that is infamous Bergen interlocking which I’m sure you know, sucks in the worst way possible. Jay St is still and old US&S plant which will take a lot of work to upgrade.

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On 5/25/2018 at 8:11 PM, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Yes, and some are actually stopping at every green signal.

Was the “green” signal flashing?

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On 6/8/2018 at 12:31 AM, INDman said:

I think it’s only Church to Stillwell. Church to Carroll got new signals with the Culver Viaduct project and I don’t think they are CBTC ready. North of that is infamous Bergen interlocking which I’m sure you know, sucks in the worst way possible. Jay St is still and old US&S plant which will take a lot of work to upgrade.

LOL you KNOW how much "Fun" i have had in that area alone!

Jay street being up graded  will definitely be loads of laughs!

Thanks for the Reply!

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