Systemwide CBTC - Planning and Implementation

[Union Tpke]

On 5/30/2020 at 3:39 PM, Collin said:

The QB Express is currently scheduled for 30 tph, 15 each .  Everywhere I've seen has said 10% increase, so that brings it up to 32-33 tph.

Lies. There won't be an increase in scheduled service, but there will be an increase in actual throughput, with an actual 30 TPH running vs. the ~26 that run during a normal rush hour. Unless the agency moves to increase schedule resolution to every 5 seconds, the scheduling won't really work out.

 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

That’s it...30 tph for CBTC? Some magic bullet! Aren’t the old wayside signals already capable of that? Why aren’t they able to do better than ~26 tph now?

Edited June 3, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Ignore. Duplicate post.

Edited June 3, 2020 by T to Dyre Avenue
Duplicate post

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

That’s it...30 tph for CBTC? Some magic bullet! Aren’t the old wayside signals already capable of that? Why aren’t they able to do better than ~26 tph now?

Isn’t the maximum one can put out with CBTC 36-40 trains per hour without deinterlining and 30-32 with some interlining (barring other issues such as terminal layouts, power issues, etc)?

In addition, if we are looking for service increases with CBTC, I believe it’s high time to start working on deinterlining to juice out the maximum potential of CBTC. We ain’t getting 36-40 trains with excessive interlining.

[Around the Horn]

3 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

That’s it...30 tph for CBTC? Some magic bullet! Aren’t the old wayside signals already capable of that? Why aren’t they able to do better than ~26 tph now?

You would need more CBTC sections elsewhere to really have a scheduling impact (hence why they're moving forward on 8th Avenue and eventually 6th)

[CenSin]

On 3/15/2020 at 11:58 AM, Union Tpke said:

I am looking forward to a six-month study of how well the  has done.

I’d be interested in their classification of “.” The often cancel scheduled express runs (making them local) or make every other local into an express run to disperse the trains that have bunched up. Obviously, in some situations, the trains are going to be performing stellar and crappy in others. But the MTA first has to define “.”

[bobtehpanda]

On 6/2/2020 at 4:55 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Why aren’t they able to do better than ~26 tph now?

Right now, the schedule is 30TPH, but it is so tight that literally any delay (like some a**hole holding the doors) for even 5s will cascade backwards. Two minutes is the absolute minimum and if you hold up a train in the station you hold up all the other ones behind it.

IIRC, this is why CBTC on Lex was initially not brought all that far forward, because dwells are so high on Lex that it is unlikely that the signalling would actually help.

[Union Tpke]

10 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Right now, the schedule is 30TPH, but it is so tight that literally any delay (like some a**hole holding the doors) for even 5s will cascade backwards. Two minutes is the absolute minimum and if you hold up a train in the station you hold up all the other ones behind it.

IIRC, this is why CBTC on Lex was initially not brought all that far forward, because dwells are so high on Lex that it is unlikely that the signalling would actually help.

You need to solve Roosevelt to deal with it, which likely means turning Woodhaven into an express stop, though I would prefer having my 45-50 mph express run.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

Part of solving Roosevelt is not just the dwell times, but the STs (or CBTC equivalent). Those are still a problem, even after the interlocking/station was resignalled a few years ago

[Union Tpke]

1 hour ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

Part of solving Roosevelt is not just the dwell times, but the STs (or CBTC equivalent). Those are still a problem, even after the interlocking/station was resignalled a few years ago

Fixing what they screwed up at Forest Hills would be nice as well.

[Bay Ridge Express]

Is CBTC installation going to speed up due to low ridership?

[Union Tpke]

This had been holding up 8th Avenue CBTC.

Screen Shot 2020-07-19 at 10.07.54 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

Screen Shot 2020-07-19 at 10.08.11 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

[RR503]

On 6/5/2020 at 11:00 AM, Union Tpke said:

Fixing what they screwed up at Forest Hills would be nice as well.

CBTC will eliminate the restrictions at FH and Roosevelt, as well as the DGT on 4 track north of the station (though you'll still have to take the switch a decent speed, of course)

[RTOMan]

Monday January the 30th CBTC ATPM Mode will be in effect on D1 track From CTL To Queens Plaza....

Not sure if Signals are removed....

[RTOMan]

Update... 

Most Signals are removed on D1 trk from CTL to Roosevelt...

The only exception is the leaving Signal at Woodhaven which displays a CBTC aspect when a CBTC train is in the station..

As of Now D2,D3 and D4 tracks from CTL to Roosevelt still have all signals in, but ATPM Mode is only in effect on D3 and D4 trk.

They start ATO testing on the Midnights next week.

[bobtehpanda]

On 7/19/2020 at 8:12 AM, Union Tpke said:

This had been holding up 8th Avenue CBTC.

Screen Shot 2020-07-19 at 10.07.54 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

Screen Shot 2020-07-19 at 10.08.11 AM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

Interesting.

TBH, parkland alienation should probably be moved to the City Council but state politics is FUBAR.

[RTOMan]

Another Update...

As of now ATPM Mode (CBTC) is in effect basically from Kew gardens to 50th Street 8th ave, 47th-50th  6th ave and 21st Queens.

That means all four tracks from Kew Gardens to Queens Plaza..

Most Signals on D2 Track North of Roosevelt are gone...

There's one At Woodhaven displaying a CBTC aspect as well as the ones going towards CTL displaying CBTC aspects.

Only D3 and D4 tracks have the old signals in and my guess is its only a matter of time before they are removed.

ATO testing is going on on the Midnights...

[darkstar8983]

I think to speed up CBTC installation, GO's need to be a bit more invasive, similar to FASTRACK shutdowns. The subway headways are already poor enough that people who ride the subway during off-peak hours wouldn't complain any more than they already do when service to their station is shut down. I do understand that it is frustrating that for example: there is no  service on 8th Avenue, with trains rerouted to 6 Av or Broadway. However, a full four-line closure is better than having the following:

1. Short-turning  trains at 59 St Columbus Circle

2. One-way express and one-way local service along 8 Av

3. Slow speed orders due to these reroutes because of flagging and worker safety

Having trains running on corridors where there is heavy construction and flagging makes trains operate no faster than 10 MPH through the entire work zone, which is now if I'm not mistaken, 1/4 mile before  work territory begins up until 1/4 mile after the work zone ends. The trains would make it from point A to point B faster going around the work zone completely by using another line entirely (again, similar to the  on 6 Av instead of stopping at every signal along 8 Av if it has to go express one-way). Another issue with piecemeal work zones is the use of switches that are normally unused, leading to a lot of switch problems on weekends where rarely-used switches are in continuous use for 48 hours. Also picture going to a local stop that is skipped in your direction of travel. You would have to go to an express station, walk up stairs, change platforms, and wait on a platform for another train to take you backwards towards your skipped station (in this case, picture going to 50th St on 8th Av from lower manhattan, and uptown trains are skipping 50th St). You would have to ride your rerouted express train to 59 St-Columbus Circle, past the work zone, and then transfer + wait for a downtown local train). If there is a full 8th Avenue closure similar to FASTRACK -style closures, then you could just ride the  /  to 7th Av-53 St and walk one avenue over to 8th Av and you're in the vicinity. 

I also do agree with a previously made comment (I think it was under another forum topic) where the commenter said the only people who navigate the subway well on weekends / heavy construction would have to have a PhD in urban transportation / navigation. 

 

Now on a broader scope, CBTC installation (assuming a full workforce - which is a caveat during pandemic times) could be expedited if FASTRACK-style closures are done on weekends after 10PM Fridays until 5AM the next beginning-of-week weekday (Monday, or Tuesday if Monday is a Holiday).

I've mentioned it in the past, but Sixth Avenue could have had CBTC installed in just a few months if they did the Brooklyn  swap, closing 6th Avenue, and rerouting the  to 8th Av and the  to Broadway on weekends continuously. Unfortunately I think that ship has now sailed until CBTC compatible subway cars are introduced to the  line, unless Culver can still accommodate non-CBTC cars. 

 

The MTA has also demonstrated that other Manhattan corridors can experience large-scale closures, with nearby corridors serving as an alternative during weekends (i.e. the 7th Av Line closure from 137 St to South Ferry that had the  run shuttle service from Van Cortlandt Park to 137 St only, the  and  trains suspended, and the  via Lexington, while Central Park West had the trains (  trains routed to 145 St via the  since the  train was out and the  was already in midtown).). 

[mrsman]

On 2/11/2022 at 1:21 PM, darkstar8983 said:

I think to speed up CBTC installation, GO's need to be a bit more invasive, similar to FASTRACK shutdowns. The subway headways are already poor enough that people who ride the subway during off-peak hours wouldn't complain any more than they already do when service to their station is shut down. I do understand that it is frustrating that for example: there is no  service on 8th Avenue, with trains rerouted to 6 Av or Broadway. However, a full four-line closure is better than having the following:

1. Short-turning  trains at 59 St Columbus Circle

2. One-way express and one-way local service along 8 Av

3. Slow speed orders due to these reroutes because of flagging and worker safety

Having trains running on corridors where there is heavy construction and flagging makes trains operate no faster than 10 MPH through the entire work zone, which is now if I'm not mistaken, 1/4 mile before  work territory begins up until 1/4 mile after the work zone ends. The trains would make it from point A to point B faster going around the work zone completely by using another line entirely (again, similar to the  on 6 Av instead of stopping at every signal along 8 Av if it has to go express one-way). Another issue with piecemeal work zones is the use of switches that are normally unused, leading to a lot of switch problems on weekends where rarely-used switches are in continuous use for 48 hours. Also picture going to a local stop that is skipped in your direction of travel. You would have to go to an express station, walk up stairs, change platforms, and wait on a platform for another train to take you backwards towards your skipped station (in this case, picture going to 50th St on 8th Av from lower manhattan, and uptown trains are skipping 50th St). You would have to ride your rerouted express train to 59 St-Columbus Circle, past the work zone, and then transfer + wait for a downtown local train). If there is a full 8th Avenue closure similar to FASTRACK -style closures, then you could just ride the  /  to 7th Av-53 St and walk one avenue over to 8th Av and you're in the vicinity. 

I also do agree with a previously made comment (I think it was under another forum topic) where the commenter said the only people who navigate the subway well on weekends / heavy construction would have to have a PhD in urban transportation / navigation. 

 

Now on a broader scope, CBTC installation (assuming a full workforce - which is a caveat during pandemic times) could be expedited if FASTRACK-style closures are done on weekends after 10PM Fridays until 5AM the next beginning-of-week weekday (Monday, or Tuesday if Monday is a Holiday).

I've mentioned it in the past, but Sixth Avenue could have had CBTC installed in just a few months if they did the Brooklyn  swap, closing 6th Avenue, and rerouting the  to 8th Av and the  to Broadway on weekends continuously. Unfortunately I think that ship has now sailed until CBTC compatible subway cars are introduced to the  line, unless Culver can still accommodate non-CBTC cars. 

 

The MTA has also demonstrated that other Manhattan corridors can experience large-scale closures, with nearby corridors serving as an alternative during weekends (i.e. the 7th Av Line closure from 137 St to South Ferry that had the  run shuttle service from Van Cortlandt Park to 137 St only, the  and  trains suspended, and the  via Lexington, while Central Park West had the trains (  trains routed to 145 St via the  since the  train was out and the  was already in midtown).). 

I agree.  Full segment line closures over weekends is the only way to accomplish some of the large scale projects that we need to do.  I think the Fastrack system worked very well in that it allowed uniterrupted work, in a safe environment, while conciously increasing service on parallel corridors to allow people to travel along parallel routes as much as possible.

I also agree that the way that the closure is implemented is also key.  If you have fewer lines to work with, the remaining lines will be a lot busier.  Therefore, MTA should work really hard to avoid criss-crossing the rerouted routes as much as possible.

So a 6th Ave closure would involve a D/F swap in Brooklyn, because the  trains will stay on 8th Ave line and split off after Jay Street to ride down Culver, and the  will presumably join the Broadway express after 63rd/Lex and follow those tracks to 4th Ave and West End.

[Around the Horn]

On 2/11/2022 at 1:21 PM, darkstar8983 said:

I think to speed up CBTC installation, GO's need to be a bit more invasive, similar to FASTRACK shutdowns. The subway headways are already poor enough that people who ride the subway during off-peak hours wouldn't complain any more than they already do when service to their station is shut down.

They likely will as more invasive procedures like cable pulls and equipment testing take place. Right now, the procedures taking place each weekend like the installation of track transponders and back room signal equipment can be done without full line shutdowns.

[darkstar8983]

On 2/16/2022 at 12:21 AM, Around the Horn said:

They likely will as more invasive procedures like cable pulls and equipment testing take place. Right now, the procedures taking place each weekend like the installation of track transponders and back room signal equipment can be done without full line shutdowns.

The advantage of the line shutdowns would be to do additional large-scale maintenance projects at other points along the line that do not involve CBTC work, but again it does boil down to having the workers necessary for such a mass blitz in work (similar to fasttrack but larger scale and much more invasive). It gets very frustrated when lines have to be running "modified service for 2-3 months" as opposed to two or three weekends of just a full monty of repair / maintenance and improvements. Those are my two cents on this, and its not like we're suspending all service on the line (meaning the etc), just rerouting (mainly the Central Business District), and providing additional subway service where trains cannot be rerouted en masse (i.e.    via 6 Av and  via Broadway vs.  shutdown, with a rerouted  and the  covering). And this does not need major shuttle bus replacement, because in many instances it doesn't prove to be effective. The buses are slaves to traffic lights which make a normal 10-minute train ride a 45 minute bus ride, which people just avoid and prefer not to take the subway at all that weekend anyways (thinking back to all those  train track outages in Astoria in 2018-2019: i think it was 25 weekends in one year where the  did not run to Ditmars Blvd, and the remaining weekends had one-way local and one-way express service, in addition to the station closures)

Edited February 18, 2022 by darkstar8983

[darkstar8983]

On 2/16/2022 at 12:21 AM, Around the Horn said:

They likely will as more invasive procedures like cable pulls and equipment testing take place. Right now, the procedures taking place each weekend like the installation of track transponders and back room signal equipment can be done without full line shutdowns.

I'm actually surprised that CBTC was able to be installed on Queens Blvd (at least in the East-of-Roosevelt corridor without a service suspension between Roosevelt Av and 71 Av. Fasttrack has closed service West of Roosevelt, and East of 71 Av, but never in-between the two stations, yet this was the first CBTC section on QB. All other CBTC territories have seen closures that encompassed the entire line at some point: (the  had all sections of its line closed at one point or another (8 Av to Myrtle Av, myrtle Av to Rockaway Pkwy, Lorimer to Broadway Jct, etc.), while the  has had closures west of Queensboro Plaza since the beginning of time, and occasional service suspensions east of 111 St, and a couple of weekends of service west of 74 St suspended, much more invasive than QB

Edited February 18, 2022 by darkstar8983

[RTOMan]

As of now ATPM Mode (CBTC) is in effect basically from Kew gardens to 50th Street 8th ave, 47th-50th  6th ave and 21st Queens.

That means all four tracks from Kew Gardens to Queens Plaza..

Most Signals on D2 Track North of Roosevelt are gone...

There's one At Woodhaven displaying a CBTC aspect as well as the ones going towards CTL displaying CBTC aspects.

 D3 and D4 tracks have had the old signals removed. Only Signal is one on D3 and D4 at Woodhaven Blvd which displays a CBTC aspect.

ATO testing is going on on the Midnights...

[RTOMan]

As of March the 1st The Relay tracks(Going into and leaving) at CTL are now in a form of CBTC Mode called CIVIL SPEED PROTECTION (CSP)...

Basically you just go into the relay and your speed is governed by the software.

The signals will be displaying a CBTC Aspect..

My guess ATO is up next not sure where and when though..

They aren't done though they still have to do Everything east of Kew and they are supposed to be done with it all by 2026..

Give or take a Year...

[RTOMan]

They are survey marking the tracks East of Kew...

Not sure when but there will be Full Shut downs past CTL on the Weekends, which they will start running cables and dropping down transponders and switch work at Parsons Hillside and 169.

Trains are already Localized at 179 meaning the folks at the CBTC area at RCC can see the trains in that station.

They talking ATO in effect only on the Echo, come to find out the Echo and Fox Fleets run different versions of CBTC..