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KK 6 Ave Local

RethinkNYC Discussion Thread

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58 minutes ago, thicctrain said:

This is a thread discussing the Regional Unified Network (ReThinkNYC). Enjoy!

Why didn't I think of this thread. I'm not gonna lie. I like their plans (like the Sunnyside business district and transit hub) but I don't agree with all of their plans. 

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Creating a regional rail system that operates more like rapid transit is a good idea, and would relieve the subway system as well as better cope with the growth of the metropolitan area. It's an idea that has been proposed here in NYC since the 1968 Program for Action (the MTA wanted a 6 tph service on the LIRR Main Line to Grand Central) and one that has worked successfully in many cities, mostly in Europe.

That being said, ReThinkNYC is full of bad ideas.

Principally, their proposal for a regional rail network doesn't really create a network - it simply stuffs all of the existing commuter rail lines and branches into one trunk line between Port Morris and Secaucus. While this would mean the trunk frequency might be very high, frequency on the outer branches would be forced down to abysmal levels. It also doesn't really take into account the conflicts that would be had between commuter service and the Amtrak intercity service, which on the NEC is quite frequent. It doesn't do anything to address stub-end terminals in the city - such as Grand Central, Hoboken, and Atlantic Avenue - that could be connected to one another and to existing lines to create multiple trunk lines. And because the desire is to put everything on the NEC, it includes the Bergen Loop at Secaucus Junction, which is just about the worst way to get the NJ Transit Erie lines into the city.

The better approach is to treat the regional rail network like a second subway - one that would behave more like an express subway in the city, but like commuter rail outside of the city. Examples of this would be the Paris RER and BART in San Francisco. Connecting New York's last two outside-of-Manhattan stub terminals - Atlantic and Hoboken - via Lower Manhattan would be much better than the silly Bergen Loop and forcing every NJ train to compete for space in the crowded NEC. Gateway should be connected to lower Grand Central, similarly to one of the alternative plans in the earlier ARC scheme. The Empire Connection should be kept, not folded into the NEC.

And finally, there's no need to bulldoze Port Morris to build a station, a yard, and new track flyovers to reach the Metro-North lines. In my opinion, ReThinkNYC gets a lot more attention than their proposals are usually worth (anyone remember their idea to send (E) trains via the (G) for the (L) shutdown?) and when it comes to regional rail, there are better ideas out there. Alon Levy's proposals on his blog Pedestrian Observations are the best and most clearly laid out on the internet right now.

Edited by officiallyliam
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http://www.rethinknyc.org/impact-and-benefits/
 

Quote

 

Example 2: Commuting from New Jersey to Westchester

Paul lives in Summit, New Jersey and is offered a job in White Plains, NY. What would the daily commute from his Union County home to his job in Westchester look like? 

2017-05-08_RUN-service-map-time-comparis

 


 

LOL, They use the M42 instead of the (S) Shuttle in their example? 

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6 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

http://www.rethinknyc.org/impact-and-benefits/

LOL, They use the M42 instead of the (S) Shuttle in their example? 

 

The M42 stops directly at 8th Avenue and saves a walk to 7th Avenue. Maybe they figure you save a little bit of time on the walk (even if the M42 goes across 42nd at walking speed pretty much)

FWIW, Google Transit suggests taking the #78 to the Newark Airport Express for 2 stops. 

Edited by checkmatechamp13

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Thanks for the link; as I didn't know what a "Rethink NYC" was; there's enough of these plans floating around as of late to try to keep up with....

Anyway, looking at that map, it reminds me of this dude named Nexis4Jersey that used to frequent these transit forums some odd years ago.... Albeit much less active, he was basically the @Wallyhorse of the RR network in the tri-state area.... Wouldn't be surprised if he was behind this ReThink NYC bit, with as extensive & ambitious as he was with his ideas....

Anyway, while I can see the benefits, I'm not & really never been all that wild about expanding the rail network in regional sense.... Hell, NYC/MTA can't even get their own shit straight as things are now, for me to want to buy into some rail line{s} that cut through Manhattan to get [to/from LI or NJ] or [to/from CT or NJ]... Seriously, any of you ever taken the NEC from Trenton to NY-Penn? Couple of these gray hairs in my head probably came from some of those trips I did that entailed enduring that ride..... And from the looks of things, I'm not the only one on these parts that frown upon that line....

=======================

As for that graphic/sample commute (completely ignoring the practicality of it)... A mode (rail) that'd shave off 2 transfers between that distance that would only save ~ 1/2 hour, really isn't anything too spectacular.....

Furthermore, NJT #78 runs b/w Newark-Penn & Secaucus (UPS), which is absolutely no where near Summit...
The only route "78" that takes you to Summit, is I-78 :lol: 
Only bus route I can think of off-top that runs in Summit, is the NJT #70; the Livingston Mall route...

AFAIC, they should "ReThink" some of these ideas !

 

Edited by B35 via Church

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The MTA and NJT could technically start operating NJT-LIRR thru service almost immediately, because tracks 13-16 are shared. West Side Access, a key part of RUN, runs on already-built-already-used Amtrak ROWs, so technically ReThink's Penn Station thru service is a close reality. However, having the NJT, LIRR, Metro-North, Amtrak, and the (Q), the (Q) also being part of this, using Port Morris Terminal and the Amtrak ROW, could cause some tiny delays. Another thing: Here's a list of some destinations that will still need transfers after Penn-thru:

Spring Valley

Suffern

Glen Rock

Port Jervis

Southeast

Wassaic

Those are just some though. The Harlem line has been proposed to be part of WSA but the Port Jervis (MNR), Main (NJT), Bergen County (NJT), and the Pasack Valley (NJT, MNR) lines. 

  

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17 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

1. Creating a regional rail system that operates more like rapid transit is a good idea, and would relieve the subway system as well as better cope with the growth of the metropolitan area. It's an idea that has been proposed here in NYC since the 1968 Program for Action (the MTA wanted a 6 tph service on the LIRR Main Line to Grand Central) and one that has worked successfully in many cities, mostly in Europe.

That being said, ReThinkNYC is full of bad ideas.

2. Principally, their proposal for a regional rail network doesn't really create a network - it simply stuffs all of the existing commuter rail lines and branches into one trunk line between Port Morris and Secaucus. While this would mean the trunk frequency might be very high, frequency on the outer branches would be forced down to abysmal levels. It also doesn't really take into account the conflicts that would be had between commuter service and the Amtrak intercity service, which on the NEC is quite frequent. It doesn't do anything to address stub-end terminals in the city - such as Grand Central, Hoboken, and Atlantic Avenue - that could be connected to one another and to existing lines to create multiple trunk lines. And because the desire is to put everything on the NEC, it includes the Bergen Loop at Secaucus Junction, which is just about the worst way to get the NJ Transit Erie lines into the city.

3. The better approach is to treat the regional rail network like a second subway - one that would behave more like an express subway in the city, but like commuter rail outside of the city. Examples of this would be the Paris RER and BART in San Francisco. Connecting New York's last two outside-of-Manhattan stub terminals - Atlantic and Hoboken - via Lower Manhattan would be much better than the silly Bergen Loop and forcing every NJ train to compete for space in the crowded NEC. Gateway should be connected to lower Grand Central, similarly to one of the alternative plans in the earlier ARC scheme. The Empire Connection should be kept, not folded into the NEC.

4. And finally, there's no need to bulldoze Port Morris to build a station, a yard, and new track flyovers to reach the Metro-North lines. In my opinion, ReThinkNYC gets a lot more attention than their proposals are usually worth (anyone remember their idea to send (E) trains via the (G) for the (L) shutdown?) and when it comes to regional rail, there are better ideas out there. Alon Levy's proposals on his blog Pedestrian Observations are the best and most clearly laid out on the internet right now.

Answering 2: You do make a point. Adding LIRR and MNR to the NEC would cause battles. Currently, Amtrak is competing with NJT (NJT is losing :S) and I do agree it gets crowded. 

I dont think it would just make one main trunk line, RUN would actually better balance things by having Penn-Thru, but the NEC delays that ensue would make it seem so.

Answering 3: You are right about an express train treatment, seeing how that works on some subway lines. But having NJ-Brooklyn service (am I talking about the right Atlantic Terminal?) would not benefit Midtown riders, and to get to Penn from the NJT like that would fill (2)(3) PATH service to the brim, but modifying the Bergen Loop or making a new tunnel after Hoboken to GCT or Penn exclusively for NJ could and should work.

Answering 4: Yes, we should not destroy a neighborhood just for a more crowded NEC, it's a very dumb move. The sunnyside term could work though, because they already have the space.

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2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Furthermore, NJT #78 runs b/w Newark-Penn & Secaucus (UPS), which is absolutely no where near Summit...
The only route "78" that takes you to Summit, is I-78 :lol: 
Only bus route I can think of off-top that runs in Summit, is the NJT #70; the Livingston Mall route...

AFAIC, they should "ReThink" some of these ideas !

3

I believe they're talking about Lakeland's #78 route.

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58 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I believe they're talking about Lakeland's #78 route.

Ah, the private carriers...... Well then that's misleading to put "NJT bus #78".

2 hours ago, thicctrain said:

It turns out they have many proposals, look here http://www.rethinkstudio.org/

Yeah, and also within this particular proposal in question, they also have the (Q) going to Pelham Bay Park, the (5) going to 238th all times, and the (6) going via the Dyre av (5) line.....

I just can't.....

Edited by B35 via Church

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58 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

 

Yeah, and also within this particular proposal in question, they also have the (Q) going to Pelham Bay Park, the (5) going to 238th all times, and the (6) going via the Dyre av (5) line.....

I just can't.....

Where? Can you link it?

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Ah, the private carriers...... Well then that's misleading to put "NJT bus #78".

Yeah, and also within this particular proposal in question, they also have the (Q) going to Pelham Bay Park, the (5) going to 238th all times, and the (6) going via the Dyre av (5) line.....

I just can't.....

6

Those extensions I've seen occasionally brought up, since I believe the Pelham Line was built as part of the Dual Contracts IIRC (meaning that if the platforms were shaved back, you could run BMT/IND-dimension trains there). Not the absolute craziest idea (even though I personally don't agree with it).

On a side note, the Lakeland #78 stops right at the Summit NJT station (Broad & Maple), but yet for their example, they have the commuter using the park-and-ride at the other end of the town (right where Broad meets I-78). 

And if you look closely, you'll see they have a light rail sharing tracks with the regular railroads. There's one that runs along part of the Montclair-Bontoon Line en-route to Pompton Lakes/Denville, and light rail running along the Main/Bergen/Pascack Valley Lines, and then a ton of light rail lines running down routes like the NJT #48, #74, etc. (Also, apparently Chatham on the Morristown Line became "Chathman").

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Really the only thing Rethink is good at is making pretty maps. Otherwise, it's just a whole lot of misplaced, press-loved foam. I mean come on. You're not creating any sort of network if all you're doing is building a grotesquely organized, isolated, flood-prone terminal in the Meadowlands, and then shoving a gazillion LRT services there. In essence, it's just a worse PABT, and one that relies on limited capacity on commuter trains and on the (7) to get people to where they actually want to go. 

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9 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Really the only thing Rethink is good at is making pretty maps. Otherwise, it's just a whole lot of misplaced, press-loved foam. I mean come on. You're not creating any sort of network if all you're doing is building a grotesquely organized, isolated, flood-prone terminal in the Meadowlands, and then shoving a gazillion LRT services there. In essence, it's just a worse PABT, and one that relies on limited capacity on commuter trains and on the (7) to get people to where they actually want to go. 

I guess they weren't Thinking hard enough!!

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@RR503 i do have to agree with you. Rethink is full of a bunch of foam. First off, one of their only GOOD plans is that business district at Sunnyside yards with a Transit Hub beneath. But what triggers me is that they never explained a full in depth description of that plan. They also didn't explain what route all of these LRT's use. And lastly, they only focused on Penn Station becoming a through station (which I bet all of us can agree on) and the (7) Secaucus extension  (which has its own thread).

 When I first saw their LGA plan, I was like,  NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE. Anyways that's all I have to say 

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1 hour ago, LGA Link N train said:

 When I first saw their LGA plan, I was like,  NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE. Anyways that's all I have to say 

The Rail line across the river to Port Morris?

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On 4/3/2018 at 5:53 PM, officiallyliam said:

 

And finally, there's no need to bulldoze Port Morris to build a station, a yard, and new track flyovers to reach the Metro-North lines. 

I've looked into it, turns out there is vacant land to the west.

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