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Deucey

Whiny Manhattanites L train lawsuit: screw 225k ppl - how will we park our cars?!?!?!

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And so they don’t seem so vapid, they put a real issue in the suit: “You’re not putting in elevators for disabled people.”

https://www.amny.com/transit/l-train-shutdown-lawsuit-1.17848663

Quote

Worried Manhattan residents filed a lawsuit against city and state agencies on Tuesday in an attempt to block the looming L train shutdown.

The suit alleges that the agencies failed to complete necessary environmental review work for a project that the plaintiffs claim would endanger residents’ health as well as the “the delicate infrastructure of our historic low-rise” neighborhoods. 

Attorney Arthur Schwartz said it was the last recourse for residents who feel ignored by “zealots” within the city’s Department of Transportation who are going too far to prioritize bus service over private vehicles and truck deliveries during the shutdown.

“The goal of this lawsuit is to stop the project until they properly address the questions of mitigation, the questions of impact, and properly interact with the affected communities,” Schwartz said at a news conference Tuesday inside Manhattan’s Northwell Health Building.

Next year, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority plans to close L train service to and through Manhattan for 15 months to allow for necessary repairs to the line’s Canarsie Tunnel under the East River, which was badly damaged by floodwaters during superstorm Sandy. But the work, the suit alleges, would also violate federal laws because it fails to make Manhattan L subway stations accessible for commuters with disabilities.

The lawsuit, filed by Chelsea and Greenwich Village block associations as well as the accessibility group Disabled In Action, names the MTA; its branch, the New York City Transit Authority; the city’s DOT and the Federal Transportation Administration. 

Even as the plaintiffs were assembling their lawsuit to postpone the work — which began in February, Schwartz said — other elected officials in Brooklyn, transit experts and advocates were pushing planning agencies to be more ambitious in mitigation efforts for the most impactful repair project in the history of the MTA.

The MTA and DOT expect to need a frequency of 70 buses per hour between the boroughs to help make up for the lost subway service. While the MTA plans to boost service on subway lines neighboring the L — namely the J, M, C and G — the city has announced proposals to create a peak-hour, exclusive busway on 14th Street between Third and Ninth avenues. 

Three, new temporary bus routes were drawn up to serve the boroughs, crossing the Williamsburg Bridge, which would have HOV restrictions during peak hours as well. A two-way, parking-protected bike lane is also planned for 13th Street.

Transit advocates argue that those plans are insufficient and that 24-hour vehicular restrictions are needed to help buses avoid traffic. 

Danny Pearlstein, policy and communications director at the nonprofit Riders Alliance, said that 14th Street could become the busiest bus route in the country and that the street design has to be changed to accommodate the new demand.

“The biggest threat to communities that are most affected by the L shutdown is traffic chaos and the pollution that comes with it,” he said. “A robust mitigation plan with excellent replacement bus service that is efficient, seamless, operates 24-7 and is free is the best way to reduce private car traffic in the area and save the area from unnecessary pollution.”

But Julianne Bond and Judy Pesin, co-chairs of the 14th Street Coalition — one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit — feel the city’s peak-hour traffic regulations on 14th Street will inhibit the mobility of local residents. The definition of “peak hour” is still being developed.

“Our concern is that, even though we gave input, these plans were designed with only commuters in mind,” said Pesin. “We’re commuters. We take subways to work, we empathize. But the commuters are impacted maybe twice a day five days a week, maybe more, we get that. Our communities are really impacted 24-7 by these plans. And we feel that we need to be heard.”

MTA spokesman Jon Weinstein said that the authority does not comment on pending legislation but added that it’s working with the city to craft a “thorough and robust” plan for the shutdown.

“The repairs to the Sandy-damaged Canarsie Tunnel are desperately needed to ensure the tunnel’s structural integrity so we can continue to provide safe and reliable subway service to hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers who depend on the L train every day,” Weinstein said in a statement.

In a letter addressed to Schwartz dated March 1, 2018, Eric Beaton, the DOT’s deputy commissioner of transportation planning and management, assured that the agencies involved are “complying with all applicable environmental review requirements” for the project. 

Scott Gastel, a DOT spokesman, said in a statement that the shtudown’s “unprecedented challenge will be felt citywide, requiring hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers to think about their commutes and their streets differently.”

Joe Cutrufo, spokesman for Transportation Alternatives, said the agencies will have to claim the rights of way on streets to keep displaced L commuters moving. 

“We can’t let the whims of a few self-interested West Village residents void the needs of hundreds of thousands of transit commuters across the city,” he said.

Attorney Arthur Schwartz dismissed the idea that the lawsuit was selfish, or a product of not-in-my-backyard arguments.

“It’s not about NIMBYism at all,” he said. “If we’re selfish, it’s because we don’t want to breathe in air pollution. We’re selfish because we want to get to hospitals on time. We’re selfish because we don’t want to hear noise 24-hours a day.”

Edited by Deucey

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My favorite part:

”If we’re selfish, it’s because we don’t want to breathe in air pollution. We’re selfish because we want to get to hospitals on time. We’re selfish because we don’t want to hear noise 24-hours a day.”

1) You live in Manhattan, where there’s no such thing as quiet.

2) You live by bars and the (L) so noisy hipsters and drunks make noise all night

3) More take (L) to Manhattan than residents take (L) elsewhere. Kwitcherbitchin. If it wasn’t broken then it wouldn’t need extraordinary measures to fix it.

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9 hours ago, Deucey said:

My favorite part:

 

 

1) You live in Manhattan, where there’s no such thing as quiet.

2) You live by bars and the (L) so noisy hipsters and drunks make noise all night

3) More take (L) to Manhattan than residents take (L) elsewhere. Kwitcherbitchin. If it wasn’t broken then it wouldn’t need extraordinary measures to fix it.

This lawsuit entails several issues and I think they are valid. It also appears to be a joint lawsuit, so it includes people with disabilities who have joined and are sick of either broken elevators or no elevators, and no they should not get away with redoing stations and not upgrading them to be accessible in the 21st century for disabled people. They also are right in that the (MTA) wants to implement this plan without an EIS (Environmental Impact Study). You're shutting down 14th Street for several blocks with buses only for over a year. That traffic doesn't just disappear. Yes Manhattan has noise and pollution. That doesn't mean that the (MTA) should be allowed to just implement any old plan. 

So 14th is lined with businesses. Where do all of the delivery trucks go to make deliveries? Residential streets? If you live an avenue, you expect noise. Some of the side streets and very quiet and residential just as you would find in the outer boroughs. They should not just be forced to deal with that just because. I've been to quite a few of these sorts of meetings and the engineers don't live in these neighorhoods. They look at some maps just as some do here, make their plans based off of that and BAM, that's what works for community. Total BS. They don't live there and they're not the ones putting up with that. In some cases you're lucky if you get one or two public hearings. This city has had a record of doing what they want despite what the community needs. The same is true with the (MTA) and they will steamroll you if you let them.

There have been countless instances of the (MTA) being a horrible neighbor, destroying houses, backyards and the like, but people overlook these things when they were the new stations on the (Q) line. Sacrifices are a must but they shouldn't be done recklessly.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

This lawsuit entails several issues and I think they are valid. It also appears to be a joint lawsuit, so it includes people with disabilities who have joined and are sick of either broken elevators or no elevators, and no they should not get away with redoing stations and not upgrading them to be accessible in the 21st century for disabled people. They also are right in that the (MTA) wants to implement this plan without an EIS (Environmental Impact Study). You're shutting down 14th Street for several blocks with buses only for over a year. That traffic doesn't just disappear. Yes Manhattan has noise and pollution. That doesn't mean that the (MTA) should be allowed to just implement any old plan. 

This was announced in 2016? They went to the meetings, did the public comments, etc.

And they're mad they didn't get the one-tunnel-at-a-time shutdown. So they come up with a delaying tactic to get preferential treatment to water down this already not great plan and still be able to park their cars on 14th St.

And the "disabled people don't have elevators" part was really added on solely to not make this seem a vapid "I want privileges" lawsuit. In fact, the elevators thing is the only part of this that is valid.

If they're mad about buses and trucks overnight, lets remember that with 14th St being car free, that's less pollution going into these buildings even if more diesel buses run down the block - since the number of buses won't even come close to equalling the number of cars.

And deliveries being done overnight? Deliveries already are being done overnight on 14th St. The world hasn't ended. The needs of the many...

 

So I'm looking forward to this suit being stripped to the only valid concern - the disabled access.

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@Via Garibaldi 8 Let's play a game where I present the problem and you bring the solution. Here we have a tunnel ravaged by Hurricane Sandy back in 2012, which either damaged or destroyed critical key components in said tunnel. The only way to bring those components back to a state of good repair is to close the tunnel for a period of time in order to facilitate those repairs. Riders are presented with two options, a partial closure lasting three years or a full one that will only take half the time. With a shorter timespan, riders overwhelmingly take to the latter choice, opting to rip the Band-Aid off quickly so to speak than deal with a lot of stops and starts.

Obviously, with a complete lack of (L) train service between Manhattan and Brooklyn, riders still have to get around, especially those along 14th Street who would now be without crosstown subway service. How do you do that? Do you keep 14th Street and the other nearly roads open to regular traffic and hope for the best, or do you close the streets to all non-essential vehicles to facilitate better crosstown movement? There's going to be a massive influx of buses along the street either way to make up for the lack of subway service, so that also must be taken into consideration. What do you do?

For the record, I'm not against the ADA component of the suit as far too often, the MTA tries and succeeds at weaseling its way out of adding accessibility to fully rehabbed stations, but let's be real for a minute. This suit only includes the ADA concerns because the other claims all reek of blatant NIMBYism and the whole thing would be tossed. The concerns for a lack of accessible stations somewhat legitimizes an otherwise frivolous case.

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28 minutes ago, Lance said:

@Via Garibaldi 8 Let's play a game where I present the problem and you bring the solution. Here we have a tunnel ravaged by Hurricane Sandy back in 2012, which either damaged or destroyed critical key components in said tunnel. The only way to bring those components back to a state of good repair is to close the tunnel for a period of time in order to facilitate those repairs. Riders are presented with two options, a partial closure lasting three years or a full one that will only take half the time. With a shorter timespan, riders overwhelmingly take to the latter choice, opting to rip the Band-Aid off quickly so to speak than deal with a lot of stops and starts.

Obviously, with a complete lack of (L) train service between Manhattan and Brooklyn, riders still have to get around, especially those along 14th Street who would now be without crosstown subway service. How do you do that? Do you keep 14th Street and the other nearly roads open to regular traffic and hope for the best, or do you close the streets to all non-essential vehicles to facilitate better crosstown movement? There's going to be a massive influx of buses along the street either way to make up for the lack of subway service, so that also must be taken into consideration. What do you do?

For the record, I'm not against the ADA component of the suit as far too often, the MTA tries and succeeds at weaseling its way out of adding accessibility to fully rehabbed stations, but let's be real for a minute. This suit only includes the ADA concerns because the other claims all reek of blatant NIMBYism and the whole thing would be tossed. The concerns for a lack of accessible stations somewhat legitimizes an otherwise frivolous case.

I don't think it's frivolous at all. Let me ask you something.  If a main road was closed in your neighborhood and buses were only allowed with numerous businesses all about, wouldn't you be asking where is all of the trucks and traffic going to go, and why isn't there a plan to address that? It's a legitimate question and one that the (MTA) should address with an EIS. I think they didn't do an EIS because they're trying to get out of this and be cheap because that study would reveal that they aren't doing enough to address the concerns.  You must have at least 100 businesses including Whole Foods and Trader Joe's on 14th street and other big retailers, so where do those delivery trucks go?  Instead they've just said oh here are two plans. Pick one and trust us.  Are you kidding me?  

Now I don't think there is any question that the work has to be done and it should be done, but for 15 months this is going to be the set up, and various communities have simply been asking the (MTA) and the DOT for that matter to be transparent about how they're going to do the following:

A) Handle all of the riders

B) Deal with all of the traffic

In my mind, the (MTA) has not been transparent, and they have not been forthcoming about the concerns of the various communities impacted, both in Brooklyn and in Manhattan.  This is an agency that thinks that they have the answers and they should just be able to go forth with them and to hell with the communities affected. 

This was announced in 2016? They went to the meetings, did the public comments, etc.

And they're mad they didn't get the one-tunnel-at-a-time shutdown. So they come up with a delaying tactic to get preferential treatment to water down this already not great plan and still be able to park their cars on 14th St.

And the "disabled people don't have elevators" part was really added on solely to not make this seem a vapid "I want privileges" lawsuit. In fact, the elevators thing is the only part of this that is valid.

If they're mad about buses and trucks overnight, lets remember that with 14th St being car free, that's less pollution going into these buildings even if more diesel buses run down the block - since the number of buses won't even come close to equalling the number of cars.

And deliveries being done overnight? Deliveries already are being done overnight on 14th St. The world hasn't ended. The needs of the many...

 

So I'm looking forward to this suit being stripped to the only valid concern - the disabled access.

Right but as this comes nearer and there haven't been many changes regarding the concerns, I think you're right. It's a stall tactic to get this done the right way and I don't blame them. I don't think I even want to be in that area for those 15 months because the traffic is going to be pure hell unless they come up with something.  I've been privy to quite a few of these types of meetings, and there is a budget that is set and I'm sure there's one for this shutdown and the (MTA) wants to hold within that budget.  They're not stupid.  They know that very well.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Right but as this comes nearer and there haven't been many changes regarding the concerns, I think you're right. It's a stall tactic to get this done the right way and I don't blame them. I don't think I even want to be in that area for those 15 months because the traffic is going to be pure hell unless they come up with something.  I've been privy to quite a few of these types of meetings, and there is a budget that is set and I'm sure there's one for this shutdown and the (MTA) wants to hold within that budget.  They're not stupid.  They know that very well.

Right way for whom?

Remember, the elevator issue is already subject to a federal lawsuit regarding already renovated stations. Adding it here just adds a thin veneer of credibility to a nuisance lawsuit.

And even in the official proposal, the restrictions on trucks is limited to rush hour - otherwise there's two local bus lanes for stops and a (assuming bidirectional peak) lane for express/deliveries. (Why they feel the need to expand sidewalks outward when they're already wide enough for an extra lane to be built, I dunno). 

Canarsie_Tunnel_Plans.pdf

Page 4 of the PDF

 

So what is it they're complaining about?? It's two-fold: "I don't wanna ride a bus to USQ, and where will I park my car." It's a "I have money; I demand privilege" lawsuit - especially since they're not complaining about bike lanes and lane restrictions along Grand Street...

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You do realize that trucks will be allowed on 14th Street, right? 

*EDIT* Deucey beat me to it

Edited by Around the Horn

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17 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Right way for whom?

Remember, the elevator issue is already subject to a federal lawsuit regarding already renovated stations. Adding it here just adds a thin veneer of credibility to a nuisance lawsuit.

And even in the official proposal, the restrictions on trucks is limited to rush hour - otherwise there's two local bus lanes for stops and a (assuming bidirectional peak) lane for express/deliveries. (Why they feel the need to expand sidewalks outward when they're already wide enough for an extra lane to be built, I dunno). 

Canarsie_Tunnel_Plans.pdf

Page 4 of the PDF

 

So what is it they're complaining about?? It's two-fold: "I don't wanna ride a bus to USQ, and where will I park my car." It's a "I have money; I demand privilege" lawsuit - especially since they're not complaining about bike lanes and lane restrictions along Grand Street...

Well to be frank with you, I'm not wild about this plan (I'm not talking about the shutdown - I think shutting things down for 15 months and doing the work is the way to go), but I can avoid it, which is why I haven't been saying that much about it, but what I don't like about it is the amount of buses going up and down.  That's still a lot of buses to replace the (L) train. I think you need to look at other ways of moving these people. Expand the ferry services that exist in Williamsburg to Manhattan.  I think the bike lanes make sense and we have more and more people taking longer trips on bikes which is good.  I also want to know more about traffic mitigation. The city already has a horrendous traffic problem which neither the mayor nor the governor has quite addressed (the mayor has that pilot program with no trucks during rush hours in parts of Midtown, but that may or may not work).  What studies have been done to show that this plan will be effective? Will there be enough buses to meet the demand? I'm skeptical. I remember super storm Sandy.  In Midtown the lines went for blocks (I'm not kidding) with people lined up to take buses.  Of course that's a different situation since it was various lines, but still, the (L) train carries a heavy load.  

In other words they have enough time to do this the right way and they should, not just for the affected communities but for all New Yorkers.  If I'm considering avoiding that area, I'm sure others will be too.  That'll have an impact on businesses for sure, and we already have enough empty store fronts here as it is across the city.  That's lost tax revenue for this city that we can ill afford.  These are all of the things that can happen in these 15 months that should be looked at in advance and addressed.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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33 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Well to be frank with you, I'm not wild about this plan (I'm not talking about the shutdown - I think shutting things down for 15 months and doing the work is the way to go), but I can avoid it, which is why I haven't been saying that much about it, but what I don't like about it is the amount of buses going up and down.  That's still a lot of buses to replace the (L) train. I think you need to look at other ways of moving these people. Expand the ferry services that exist in Williamsburg to Manhattan.  I think the bike lanes make sense and we have more and more people taking longer trips on bikes which is good.  I also want to know more about traffic mitigation. The city already has a horrendous traffic problem which neither the mayor nor the governor has quite addressed (the mayor has that pilot program with no trucks in parts of Midtown, but that may or may not work).  What studies have been done to show that this plan will be effective? Will there be enough buses to meet the demand? I'm skeptical. I remember super storm Sandy.  In Midtown the lines went for blocks (I'm not kidding) with people lined up to take buses.  Of course that's a different situation since it was various lines, but still, the (L) train carries a heavy load.  

In other words they have enough time to do this the right way and they should, not just for the affected communities but for all New Yorkers.  If I'm considering avoiding that area, I'm sure others will be too.  That'll have an impact on businesses for sure, and we already have enough empty store fronts here as it is across the city.  That's lost tax revenue for this city that we can ill afford.  These are all of the things that can happen in these 15 months that should be looked at in advance and addressed.

There's validity to your point - the bulk of this plan wasn't a thought-out mitigation, it was a "OH SHIT WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO?? HEY, WE'LL USE BENDY BUSES AND ELIMINATE CARS ON 14TH ST AND TRY TO GET 50K RIDERS A DAY TAKEN CARE OF SINCE THE OTHER 175K WILL JUST TAKE THE (M) OR (J) OR (G) TO (7)(E)" panic idea.

But lets be real: even though the ERF is well-used (even now that the City put sleek boats on it), after the Summer of Hell with the empty ferries, it's doubtful (MTA) will invest in that again - because people will just adapt.

I've said often enough how stupid it is that they're so focused on the Lena Dunham crowd regarding these buses over the W'burg bridge when they could just run shuttles to Marcy (J)(M) or Court Square (G)(7)(E), or even down to Nostrand (A)(C) whilst ignoring the folks that don't live in the good part of Bushwick or B-way Junction with alternatives - since it's not like they're keeping (L) service levels the same so the Canarsie and East NY folks can still get to (A)(C)(J) or the (M) as frequently as they do now.

But Canarsie is broke; W'burg is not AND they have media savvy to make (MTA) look even worse, so they cater while cowering.

Rail is always more efficient than road, but in this case, road is more efficient than running a single track shuttle when cowering to the next Lena Dunham or Dan Bilzerian potentially posting about how stupid (MTA) are because they had to walk on a moving walkway to get the train to GCT.

And these suits fail to consider that the masses adapt. Remember when folks (I was in California at the time) complained about Mikey closing Broadway to make pedestrian plazas, and now walking and lunching on Broadway is a thing no one will give up?

Same here. People afraid of change and too selfish to consider the greater good throwing a fit. 

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31 minutes ago, Deucey said:

There's validity to your point - the bulk of this plan wasn't a thought-out mitigation, it was a "OH SHIT WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO?? HEY, WE'LL USE BENDY BUSES AND ELIMINATE CARS ON 14TH ST AND TRY TO GET 50K RIDERS A DAY TAKEN CARE OF SINCE THE OTHER 175K WILL JUST TAKE THE (M) OR (J) OR (G) TO (7)(E)" panic idea.

But lets be real: even though the ERF is well-used (even now that the City put sleek boats on it), after the Summer of Hell with the empty ferries, it's doubtful (MTA) will invest in that again - because people will just adapt.

I've said often enough how stupid it is that they're so focused on the Lena Dunham crowd regarding these buses over the W'burg bridge when they could just run shuttles to Marcy (J)(M) or Court Square (G)(7)(E), or even down to Nostrand (A)(C) whilst ignoring the folks that don't live in the good part of Bushwick or B-way Junction with alternatives - since it's not like they're keeping (L) service levels the same so the Canarsie and East NY folks can still get to (A)(C)(J) or the (M) as frequently as they do now.

But Canarsie is broke; W'burg is not AND they have media savvy to make (MTA) look even worse, so they cater while cowering.

Rail is always more efficient than road, but in this case, road is more efficient than running a single track shuttle when cowering to the next Lena Dunham or Dan Bilzerian potentially posting about how stupid (MTA) are because they had to walk on a moving walkway to get the train to GCT.

And these suits fail to consider that the masses adapt. Remember when folks (I was in California at the time) complained about Mikey closing Broadway to make pedestrian plazas, and now walking and lunching on Broadway is a thing no one will give up?

Same here. People afraid of change and too selfish to consider the greater good throwing a fit. 

I can't say I disagree with you, but that's how it's been working in this city.  Don't think that people in the less monied areas don't complain either.  It's just that they don't have the financial resources to do so effectively.  I had to be at one meeting where this lady gave it to the presenters.  She was pissed that the mitigation plan included very little beautification where she lived, which just so happened to be in NYCHA housing, which she didn't think was a coincidence.  I'll be curious to see how that project goes... I laugh because after she was done I think some of them wanted to crawl under a table. :lol:

I don't think it's necessarily about afraid of change, but rather a lack of trust.

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46 minutes ago, Deucey said:

There's validity to your point - the bulk of this plan wasn't a thought-out mitigation, it was a "OH SHIT WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO?? HEY, WE'LL USE BENDY BUSES AND ELIMINATE CARS ON 14TH ST AND TRY TO GET 50K RIDERS A DAY TAKEN CARE OF SINCE THE OTHER 175K WILL JUST TAKE THE (M) OR (J) OR (G) TO (7)(E)" panic idea.

Well how else are you going to move 50k~ riders a day across the east river?

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I personally feel the community just needs to deal for it temporarily. 15 months isn’t bad to wait out. TBH wouldn’t there be less traffic on 14th street if it were closed down to only buses and trucks? I understand the concern but the tunnel needs repair and it needs it done now. Just get it over with. 

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3 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

I personally feel the community just needs to deal for it temporarily. 15 months isn’t bad to wait out. TBH wouldn’t there be less traffic on 14th street if it were closed down to only buses and trucks? I understand the concern but the tunnel needs repair and it needs it done now. Just get it over with. 

No, that's not the attitude that should be taken.  It should be done and done properly and it can be.  There's still plenty of time for the (MTA) to make corrections, so there is no excuse to accept it as is. If this was your neighborhood, you'd be singing a different tune.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No, that's not the attitude that should be taken.  It should be done and done properly and it can be.  There's still plenty of time for the (MTA) to make corrections, so there is no excuse to accept it as is. If this was your neighborhood, you'd be singing a different tune.

There’s not really much to tweak. Either close off 14th street to buses and trucks or not. One would help people who need the L train to go into the city the latter wouldn’t. Like what really can be done? We’re talking about thousands of people who travel back and fourth and if they need to get into the city in an effienct way something has to be sacrificed for a short time. 

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6 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

There’s not really much to tweak. Either close off 14th street to buses and trucks or not. One would help people who need the L train to go into the city the latter wouldn’t. Like what really can be done? We’re talking about thousands of people who travel back and fourth and if they need to get into the city in an effienct way something has to be sacrificed for a short time. 

That's precisely it though.  Saying we're going to close off 14th street to traffic, throw some buses on the avenue and that takes care of it isn't enough in my book.  As was stated, no environmental impact study was done, which is something that should be done for a project of this magnitude for 15 months (what happens if they find something that stretches this project longer than 15 months?)   Where does all of that traffic that uses 14th street go, and how is that addressed?  The people commuting to and from just have to put up with it to and from.  The people living there will be putting up with not just 14th street being closed to buses, but everything else that comes with that and that should be addressed. The (MTA) put this plan together quickly and it seems as if it's been done with little thought, otherwise, they should have no problem addressing these concerns.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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15 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No, that's not the attitude that should be taken.  It should be done and done properly and it can be.  There's still plenty of time for the (MTA) to make corrections, so there is no excuse to accept it as is. If this was your neighborhood, you'd be singing a different tune.

Then what should be done? How do you propose to move 50k people across 14th street without closing it down to public traffic?

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8 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

Then what should be done? How do you propose to move 50k people across 14th street without closing it down to public traffic?

As I said, closing down 14th street to traffic should be PART of this discussion.  I'm not sure why you don't understand that that isn't the only thing that should be done.  I'd like to know for example, how much vehicular traffic does 14th street see, and how is that addressed in this plan?  I've seen 14th street shut down in parts before for one thing or another and the traffic has been a disaster.  It seems like no one is thinking about all of these things, and they should be.  You live in Soho.  If you don't think that traffic is going to be worse in your area because of this plan you're very naive, so what should be looked at is how can they not only close down 14th street but mitigate traffic in the surrounding areas.  There's been no discussion of that, and quite frankly it's not okay to say hey let's just clog up residential streets with trucks and cars.  There should be a set plan in place for alternative avenues for those trucks and so on to use and also for emergency vehicles too.  

In other words, just because 14th street is shut down, the city should not come to a stand still in certain areas, which I believe some fear may happen without a plan.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's precisely it though.  Saying we're going to close off 14th street to traffic, throw some buses on the avenue and that takes care of it isn't enough in my book.  As was stated, no environmental impact study was done, which is something that should be done for a project of this magnitude for 15 months (what happens if they find something that stretches this project longer than 15 months?)   Where does all of that traffic that uses 14th street go, and how is that addressed?  The people commuting to and from just have to put up with it to and from.  The people living there will be putting up with not just 14th street being closed to buses, but everything else that comes with that and that should be addressed. The (MTA) put this plan together quickly and it seems as if it's been done with little thought, otherwise, they should have no problem addressing these concerns.

If the mta were to give an explanation it would be how would we get hundreds of thousands of people to work or wherever if we can’t dedicate a substitute of transportation? Environmental study? Aren’t they supplying low emission and electric buses for the L train shuttle? I think the mta could tell the community that. 

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5 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

If the mta were to give an explanation it would be how would we get hundreds of thousands of people to work or wherever if we can’t dedicate a substitute of transportation? Environmental study? Aren’t they supplying low emission and electric buses for the L train shuttle? I think the mta could tell the community that. 

I think people understand that 14th street needs to be shut down to vehicular traffic, but there are some tweaks that should be made. I don't think it's enough to say, oh we're use clear air buses. Please.  Those buses are a step in the right direction, but there will still be pollution, and the (MTA) should be held accountable for mitigating that where possible.  So how many buses will they need, and how will that impact air quality in that area? That's something they should be able to answer, but they can't and that's not ok. An environmental impact study would address such concerns.  If those buses will substantially increase pollution then now is the time to see how that can be improved.  Can they encourage more people to switch to other subway lines as opposed to using so many buses? Can they have more people biking instead? 

We know that communities around the city have complained about high asthma rates where the (MTA) has a high amount of buses floating around (i.e. depots) and they've been forced to address that, and I think the amount of buses used is definitely something that needs to be discussed further.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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1 hour ago, Deucey said:

There's validity to your point - the bulk of this plan wasn't a thought-out mitigation, it was a "OH SHIT WHAT ARE WE GONNA DO?? HEY, WE'LL USE BENDY BUSES AND ELIMINATE CARS ON 14TH ST AND TRY TO GET 50K RIDERS A DAY TAKEN CARE OF SINCE THE OTHER 175K WILL JUST TAKE THE (M) OR (J) OR (G) TO (7)(E)" panic idea.

You mean 85K on 14th Street...

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

I've said often enough how stupid it is that they're so focused on the Lena Dunham crowd regarding these buses over the W'burg bridge when they could just run shuttles to Marcy (J)(M) or Court Square (G)(7)(E), or even down to Nostrand (A)(C) whilst ignoring the folks that don't live in the good part of Bushwick or B-way Junction with alternatives - since it's not like they're keeping (L) service levels the same so the Canarsie and East NY folks can still get to (A)(C)(J) or the (M) as frequently as they do now.

Yeah no... All of those lines are already at capacity, and I highly doubt they could handily the current projection of 175K, let alone 225K. Any amount of people that you can divert to buses into Manhattan is a good thing,

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1 minute ago, Around the Horn said:

You mean 85K on 14th Street...

Yeah no... All of those lines are already at capacity, and I highly doubt they could handily the current projection of 175K, let alone 225K. Any amount of people that you can divert to buses into Manhattan is a good thing,

I question how effective the (MTA) will be at getting people to use the alternatives. I certainly don't believe that taking hundreds of thousands of daily riders and sticking them on buses is a good thing. Not at all.  

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43 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I can't say I disagree with you, but that's how it's been working in this city.  Don't think that people in the less monied areas don't complain either.  It's just that they don't have the financial resources to do so effectively.  I had to be at one meeting where this lady gave it to the presenters.  She was pissed that the mitigation plan included very little beautification where she lived, which just so happened to be in NYCHA housing, which she didn't think was a coincidence.  I'll be curious to see how that project goes... I laugh because after she was done I think some of them wanted to crawl under a table. :lol:

I don't think it's necessarily about afraid of change, but rather a lack of trust.

Right, that's how Government for and by the people works - he who has the gold makes the rules; he who gives him gold gets preferential treatment, and those who barely have any gold get barely any consideration.

That's why Lena Dunham & Co are getting catered to.

Of course, there's a case for mitigation over the bridge, but they're getting exclusive lanes for faster movement while the rest of the borough gets to be stuck in the same asinine traffic jam as always because DOT thinks sticking a traffic signal with a timer everywhere is the best way forward versus coming up with an actual traffic management plan.

Now 14th Street marketing directors and associates are suing to get their preferential treatment.

Yet the folks who would've been barely considered because they barely have anything continue to get by on barely.

(This is the other reason I'm anti-congestion charge.)

I wish it was an issue of lack of trust, but it really isn't. It's solely "you didn't think about me when you were handing out privileges so now I'm suing to get some too". It's a vapid and frivolous lawsuit - save the disabled access accommodations. This is their way of shouting louder and making it seem like they're being screwed (when they're just inconvenienced slightly) so the folks truly inconvenienced are drowned out.

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5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You live in Soho.  If you don't think that traffic is going to be worse in your area because of this plan you're very naive,

I know traffic is going to be worse in my area, hell, I've even got a shuttle bus going up my block, but I'm not complaining. I understand that these are necessary measures that must be taken in order to transport the displaced (L) riders. There's really no way around this, it's going to suck for 15 months until they get the tubes back open and I'm just going to have to deal with noisy buses and increased traffic. That's life.

12 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'd like to know for example, how much vehicular traffic does 14th street see, and how is that addressed in this plan?

http://web.mta.info/sandy/pdf/20180222CrosstownTrafficAnalysis_.pdf

Page 6-Onward.

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10 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

I know traffic is going to be worse in my area, hell, I've even got a shuttle bus going up my block, but I'm not complaining. I understand that these are necessary measures that must be taken in order to transport the displaced (L) riders. There's really no way around this, it's going to suck for 15 months until they get the tubes back open and I'm just going to have to deal with noisy buses and increased traffic. That's life.

http://web.mta.info/sandy/pdf/20180222CrosstownTrafficAnalysis_.pdf

Page 6-Onward.

I think it's hilarious that they're depending on the the layout of East-West crosstown streets south of 14th street to supposedly to be a determent to the spillover from 14th street.  The other thing they talk about is the importance of this bus only set up being effective and stopping people from using for hire vehicles. I'm not sure it will. That is something that will be another issue given the demographic that we're talking about.  They really need to a marketing campaign in the coming months to inform as many people as possible about their alternatives using public transit (and not Uber or Lyft either).

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