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Whiny Manhattanites L train lawsuit: screw 225k ppl - how will we park our cars?!?!?!


Deucey

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Yep. Everyone's gotta gripe here. Some, like the expected influx of street traffic or the concerns about getting from place to place during this closure, are indeed legitimate problems that will be felt by many riders and residents. That fact cannot be minimized. On the flip-side however, the work needs to be done and there are few ways to carry out impact mitigation without massive pre-tunnel closure construction work. 14th Street is the only bidirectional east-west road in the impact area. The other nearby roads that meet the criteria are 23rd Street to the north and Houston St to the south, both of which are too far away to be useful for majority of displaced (L) riders, hence the proposed setup. It's not a perfect solution by any stretch of the imagination, but given the sheer magnitude to people affected by this project, it's likely the best possible solution that can appeal to both the displaced (L) riders, as well as the residents and businesses in the 14th Street area that will see the massive influx of buses along their streets starting next year.

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10 hours ago, Deucey said:

And the "disabled people don't have elevators" part was really added on solely to not make this seem a vapid "I want privileges" lawsuit. In fact, the elevators thing is the only part of this that is valid.

 

Not every station CAN be made accessible. Nobody though about such things 100+ years ago when they designed the stations. That's why the Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association worked with the (MTA) to come up with the list of 100 "key" stations back in the 1990s. 

 

Should the entire subway system be shut down and rebuilt all at once?

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20 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

Not every station CAN be made accessible. Nobody though about such things 100+ years ago when they designed the stations. That's why the Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association worked with the (MTA) to come up with the list of 100 "key" stations back in the 1990s. 

 

Should the entire subway system be shut down and rebuilt all at once?

What’s this gotta do with my belittling these folks’ 90% frivolous lawsuit?

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I don't understand the alternative that residents of this neighborhood honestly think will be better. 

We're shutting down this giant chunk of infrastructure that efficiently moves many tens of thousands of people every day. The tunnel work has to be done. There's no magic replacement for that capacity. You can't wish these commuters away. Most of these people will need to travel on or near 14th St. Streets and sidewalks will be more crowded around 14th St. There is no avoiding that. 

The best option — the only option, really — is to make the most efficient use of the limited street space available. That means limiting the use of the least-efficient modes of transit as much possible (specifically, private cars, and especially single-occupancy cars / single-rider FHVs). And it means increasing capacity for more efficient modes of transit (busses, bikes, and walking). That requires new dedicated bus and bike lanes, and wider sidewalks.

Frankly, I think the plan the MTA and DOT have come up with doesn't go nearly far enough. They need more dedicated lanes and fewer standard traffic lanes. They need to sacrifice a lot of on-street parking. If they did enough of that, congestion might not be so bad. But no, they anticipated this awful NIMBY reaction and half-assed it. Now no one will be happy, especially if they water it down any further. 

It's all really dumb, because these changes are inevitable. People are ignorantly fighting the inevitable. As the city grows, we'll need more efficient use of street space anyway. This was a good chance to get a leg up on that. But no. We're just doomed to have this same conversation in 5-10 years. Ugh. 

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10 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Well to be frank with you, I'm not wild about this plan (I'm not talking about the shutdown - I think shutting things down for 15 months and doing the work is the way to go), but I can avoid it, which is why I haven't been saying that much about it, but what I don't like about it is the amount of buses going up and down.  That's still a lot of buses to replace the (L) train. I think you need to look at other ways of moving these people. Expand the ferry services that exist in Williamsburg to Manhattan.  I think the bike lanes make sense and we have more and more people taking longer trips on bikes which is good.  I also want to know more about traffic mitigation. The city already has a horrendous traffic problem which neither the mayor nor the governor has quite addressed (the mayor has that pilot program with no trucks during rush hours in parts of Midtown, but that may or may not work).  What studies have been done to show that this plan will be effective? Will there be enough buses to meet the demand? I'm skeptical. I remember super storm Sandy.  In Midtown the lines went for blocks (I'm not kidding) with people lined up to take buses.  Of course that's a different situation since it was various lines, but still, the (L) train carries a heavy load.  

In other words they have enough time to do this the right way and they should, not just for the affected communities but for all New Yorkers.  If I'm considering avoiding that area, I'm sure others will be too.  That'll have an impact on businesses for sure, and we already have enough empty store fronts here as it is across the city.  That's lost tax revenue for this city that we can ill afford.  These are all of the things that can happen in these 15 months that should be looked at in advance and addressed.

Okay, let's say we expand the ferries and the bikes without the buses. What do you do with the people who don't have bikes? The fact that there isn't enough bike lane space across the river? The people who can't ride bikes? And what are the people who take the ferry supposed to do when they get off of it?

The traffic mitigation is the buses.

8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think people understand that 14th street needs to be shut down to vehicular traffic, but there are some tweaks that should be made. I don't think it's enough to say, oh we're use clear air buses. Please.  Those buses are a step in the right direction, but there will still be pollution, and the (MTA) should be held accountable for mitigating that where possible.  So how many buses will they need, and how will that impact air quality in that area? That's something they should be able to answer, but they can't and that's not ok. An environmental impact study would address such concerns.  If those buses will substantially increase pollution then now is the time to see how that can be improved.  Can they encourage more people to switch to other subway lines as opposed to using so many buses? Can they have more people biking instead? 

We know that communities around the city have complained about high asthma rates where the (MTA) has a high amount of buses floating around (i.e. depots) and they've been forced to address that, and I think the amount of buses used is definitely something that needs to be discussed further.

So the MTA should wait the (several) year(s) it takes to actually file a EIS even though we've basically already put off the repairs for far longer than we probably should have. Do you love decreasing reliability and derailments? Because all you need to do is look at those Amtrak tunnels to see what putting off the repairs looks like.

8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I think it's hilarious that they're depending on the the layout of East-West crosstown streets south of 14th street to supposedly to be a determent to the spillover from 14th street.  The other thing they talk about is the importance of this bus only set up being effective and stopping people from using for hire vehicles. I'm not sure it will. That is something that will be another issue given the demographic that we're talking about.  They really need to a marketing campaign in the coming months to inform as many people as possible about their alternatives using public transit (and not Uber or Lyft either).

You know what would actually help adoption of the buses and reduce congestion? 14th St buses being free for the duration of the shutdown. No waiting for ol' grandmas to fumble with the coins, no people trying to pay with the farebox, no fumbling with SBS receipts. None of that. Just let out, pack in and shut the doors.

1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Not every station CAN be made accessible. Nobody though about such things 100+ years ago when they designed the stations. That's why the Eastern Paralyzed Veterans Association worked with the (MTA) to come up with the list of 100 "key" stations back in the 1990s. 

Should the entire subway system be shut down and rebuilt all at once?

Holy strawman, Batman!

The MTA has not even bothered looking into ADA accessibility at all. If anything, a time when the line is going to be completely shut down anyways is the textbook example of the perfect time to do it. Anything else is just willful dereliction of duty.

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10 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

So the MTA should wait the (several) year(s) it takes to actually file a EIS even though we've basically already put off the repairs for far longer than we probably should have. Do you love decreasing reliability and derailments? Because all you need to do is look at those Amtrak tunnels to see what putting off the repairs looks like.

Also, what will the study tell the MTA that they don't already know? It takes a lot of buses to replace a few trains, more so when the subway line in question is one of the busiest in the nation. Those replacement buses should run on the widest thoroughfare to minimize the potential for delays while being accessible for the majority of riders impacted. That only leaves 14th Street as a viable candidate here. Requesting and paying for a study to point out what really is patently obvious seems like a complete waste of limited funds, especially when there have been so many calls on the agency to reduce wasteful spending.

10 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

You know what would actually help adoption of the buses and reduce congestion? 14th St buses being free for the duration of the shutdown. No waiting for ol' grandmas to fumble with the coins, no people trying to pay with the farebox, no fumbling with SBS receipts. None of that. Just let out, pack in and shut the doors.

I'm kind of surprised they aren't. The buses running between Myrtle Av and Myrtle-Wyckoff have been free since the project started. If nothing else, it would be good optics to have the 14th Street buses run fare-free for the duration of the closure to show that the agency is understanding of the plight this disruption will cause.

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14 hours ago, rbrome said:

Frankly, I think the plan the MTA and DOT have come up with doesn't go nearly far enough. They need more dedicated lanes and fewer standard traffic lanes. They need to sacrifice a lot of on-street parking. If they did enough of that, congestion might not be so bad. But no, they anticipated this awful NIMBY reaction and half-assed it. Now no one will be happy, especially if they water it down any further.

Not far enough indeed. Should eminent domain their properties to build a yard and some more terminal tracks on the Manhattan end.

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54 minutes ago, Lance said:

Also, what will the study tell the MTA that they don't already know? It takes a lot of buses to replace a few trains, more so when the subway line in question is one of the busiest in the nation. Those replacement buses should run on the widest thoroughfare to minimize the potential for delays while being accessible for the majority of riders impacted. That only leaves 14th Street as a viable candidate here. Requesting and paying for a study to point out what really is patently obvious seems like a complete waste of limited funds, especially when there have been so many calls on the agency to reduce wasteful spending.

I'm kind of surprised they aren't. The buses running between Myrtle Av and Myrtle-Wyckoff have been free since the project started. If nothing else, it would be good optics to have the 14th Street buses run fare-free for the duration of the closure to show that the agency is understanding of the plight this disruption will cause.

As I said before, this isn't about the (MTA). It's about the affected communities and the (MTA) being transparent. If said communities are concerned about increased pollution because of the increase in the amount of buses and overall concentrated traffic, the (MTA) should be able to say what sort of impact running all of these buses will have over the course of 15 months. They can't say. They should be able to and they should be looking to run as few buses as possible and use alternatives.  Ultimately, the (MTA) does not know everything (though some here praise them as if they do - just a bunch of folks analyzing data and maps), and I highly doubt that these people live in the affected areas, so they don't give a damn.

11 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Okay, let's say we expand the ferries and the bikes without the buses. What do you do with the people who don't have bikes? The fact that there isn't enough bike lane space across the river? The people who can't ride bikes? And what are the people who take the ferry supposed to do when they get off of it?

The traffic mitigation is the buses.

So the MTA should wait the (several) year(s) it takes to actually file a EIS even though we've basically already put off the repairs for far longer than we probably should have. Do you love decreasing reliability and derailments? Because all you need to do is look at those Amtrak tunnels to see what putting off the repairs looks like.

You know what would actually help adoption of the buses and reduce congestion? 14th St buses being free for the duration of the shutdown. No waiting for ol' grandmas to fumble with the coins, no people trying to pay with the farebox, no fumbling with SBS receipts. None of that. Just let out, pack in and shut the doors.

Holy strawman, Batman!

The MTA has not even bothered looking into ADA accessibility at all. If anything, a time when the line is going to be completely shut down anyways is the textbook example of the perfect time to do it. Anything else is just willful dereliction of duty.

Please.  Stop making excuses for them.  The (MTA) didn't just find out about the tunnel being damaged yesterday.  Sandy happened when? October 2012... It'll be almost 7 years since that hurricane when this project gets under way in 2019.  If they really wanted to, they could've expedited the EIS.  I work with companies that do those sorts of studies, and in fact have been to several meetings in the metropolitan area in both NY and NJ involving projects pertaining to mitigation solutions for future hurricanes because of Sandy.  

As for your other comment about the buses being the mitigation, that's not the point.  The point is running all of these buses will have an impact on several communities, so the goal should be to mitigate that impact as much as possible. The plan that they've come up with makes sense, but they should be able to confirm how many buses they'll need and how that will impact the affected communities.  Again, transparency, which is a reasonable request for such a project, not this is what we're doing live with it BS, which is what they've done over and over again to countless communities around the city.  I do actually agree with you that they should perhaps consider having all 14th Street service free to keep buses moving and see how that goes.  Even with SBS, people wait to the last minute to get their ticket (don't ask me why).  Annoying.  

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1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

As I said before, this isn't about the (MTA). It's about the affected communities and the (MTA) being transparent. If said communities are concerned about increased pollution because of the increase in the amount of buses and concentrated overall traffic, the (MTA) should be able to say what sort of impact running all of these buses will have over the course of 15 months. They can't say. They should be able to and they should be looking to run as few buses as possible and use alternatives.  

I'm really struggling to understand this. A bus holds 70-80 people. Even if only 25% of those people are taking the bus instead of a FHV (and it could be a much greater percentage, since we're talking about places like Manhattan and Williamsburg), that's 20 cars off the road. You'd prefer the cars? You know that would mean a lot MORE pollution, right? And WAY more congestion? 

More busses = less pollution and less congestion. Everyone should want as many busses as possible, basically. 

If you're going to advocate for fewer busses, you need to present a viable alternative for moving those people. I haven't heard one yet. 

The masses of people are going to be on this route no matter what. People have to get to work. The only question is what mode of transport they'll be using. Walking isn't practical for long distances. We are encouraging bikes, (and could be doing more there,) but only certain people will takes bikes; a good chunk of the population will never do that. That leaves busses as the only remotely efficient way to move these people. 

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7 minutes ago, rbrome said:

I'm really struggling to understand this. A bus holds 70-80 people. Even if only 25% of those people are taking the bus instead of a FHV (and it could be a much greater percentage, since we're talking about places like Manhattan and Williamsburg), that's 20 cars off the road. You'd prefer the cars? You know that would mean a lot MORE pollution, right? And WAY more congestion? 

More busses = less pollution and less congestion. Everyone should want as many busses as possible, basically. 

If you're going to advocate for fewer busses, you need to present a viable alternative for moving those people. I haven't heard one yet. 

The masses of people are going to be on this route no matter what. People have to get to work. The only question is what mode of transport they'll be using. Walking isn't practical for long distances. We are encouraging bikes, (and could be doing more there,) but only certain people will takes bikes; a good chunk of the population will never do that. That leaves busses as the only remotely efficient way to move these people. 

No.  What I said was that they should be able to say how many buses they'll need and what impact that will have in terms of increased pollution.  I already know that they're running ferries and encouraging people to bike.  My question is do they really need to run the amount of buses that they will be running or can they encourage more people to use different train lines instead instead of running so many buses? Yes, I know the alternatives are maxed out in terms of capacity, BUT if marketed right I'm sure those alternatives aren't packed 24/7 like the (L) SO, instead of just piling people on buses, maybe look at when the alternatives aren't maxed out and encourage people to use those alternatives then where possible and perhaps run more ferry service too than they're planning. I'm NOT advocating for people to use more cars, but at the same time, buses WILL omit pollution.  There's no disputing that, and having that buses to replace the (L) train is something that should be further analyzed before it is rolled out.  If I were the affected communities, I would also hold them to running their newest cleanest air fleet that they have instead running those beat up buses from 2002 artic buses, which blow black smoke all over the place.  If that's their idea of "clean air" buses, then I'd beg to differ.  

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12 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

As for your other comment, that's not the point.  The point is running all of these buses will have an impact on several communities, so the goal should be to mitigate that impact as much as possible. The plan that they've come up with makes sense, but they should be to confirm how many buses they'll need and how that will impact the affected communities.

Reading the end of this report, looks like the max number of cars going through 14th St is 650 per hour, and the projection is 49 buses per hour max during the shutdown. Even if every bus ran an 8.9L Diesel engine, it'd still be less pollution than 650 gas engines idling because of congestion.

I'll agree - it would be nice if that was quantified by (MTA). But even taking it as anecdotal common knowledge that 1) one 40ft bus with all seats occupied removes at least 20 cars from the street, 2) engines are more efficient and pollute less with vehicles in motion than starting/stopping, the buses running will be a net benefit on air quality during this shutdown than the status quo - especially if it was implemented so M14A and M14D alternated stopping every two blocks instead of sharing every stop.

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7 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Reading the end of this report, looks like the max number of cars going through 14th St is 650 per hour, and the projection is 49 buses per hour max during the shutdown. Even if every bus ran an 8.9L Diesel engine, it'd still be less pollution than 650 gas engines idling because of congestion.

I'll agree - it would be nice if that was quantified by (MTA). But even taking it as anecdotal common knowledge that 1) one 40ft bus with all seats occupied removes at least 20 cars from the street, 2) engines are more efficient and pollute less with vehicles in motion than starting/stopping, the buses running will be a net benefit on air quality during this shutdown than the status quo - especially if it was implemented so M14A and M14D alternated stopping every two blocks instead of sharing every stop.

Forget 40 footers. I would require them to run all low floor clean air artic buses, and not those old high floor beat up polluting 2002 and 2003 artic buses... They love putting those beat up buses on for shuttle service.  If they need more artics, they should be able to get some built fresh by then so they're getting the newest clean air buses possible.  Now, you do all of that and that's the best you can do.  Maximize the ferries running (I think they can run more than they're planning, market alternatives heavily - the (MTA) can market when they want to - trust me I know from experience), and I'd go one further as rbrome said and be even more aggressive about restricting parking in the area.  That's where I think the DOT isn't going far enough with this plan.

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1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Forget 40 footers. I would require them to run all low floor clean air artic buses, and not those old high floor beat polluting 2002 and 2003 artic buses... They love putting those beat up buses on for shuttle service.  

I thought all the New Flyer High Floor bendy buses were gonna be retired by the time this started.

But I'm just using the 40 footers as an example. The 60 footers - with all the seats taken (and no standees, would remove 30-40 cars from the block. Still with an 8.9L Diesel, just anecdotal common knowledge says this would pollute less than 650 cars per hour.

So I stand by my original complaint - it's a stall tactic by vapid people with money mad they're not getting considered for "privileges" and are wasting public money on this suit to get some.

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Just now, Deucey said:

I thought all the New Flyer High Floor bendy buses were gonna be retired by the time this started.

But I'm just using the 40 footers as an example. The 60 footers - with all the seats taken (and no standees, would remove 30-40 cars from the block. Still with an 8.9L Diesel, just anecdotal common knowledge says this would pollute less than 650 cars per hour.

So I stand by my original complaint - it's a stall tactic by vapid people with money mad they're not getting considered for "privileges" and are wasting public money on this suit to get some.

Well I'd only agree with you if they did what I think they should do which I stated above.  This plan is a step in the right direction, but they can certainly be more transparent with it and more aggressive.  That's my issue with it, and that's what I would say if this was taking place in my neighborhood.  Now, I've been to (MTA) meetings in my neighborhood in which we discussed buses... Yeah buses are great, but they omit pollution as well, so one of the big complaints from the people at the meeting I spoke at was they wanted the buses to be cleaner than the current Metro-North shuttle buses that run through our area to serve our Metro-North stations, and I went one further and said that they should be bigger to serve more people, thus you wouldn't need as many of them. We applauded the idea of increased train service because that meant fewer cars could be on the road, but we also didn't say oh yes more buses either. When they aren't in service they do actually sometimes use residential streets.  I don't think this would be the case here though, but my point is the cleaner the better. I have been in talks with my elected officials about trying to secure such buses in the future.  Their argument has been that some of the streets that are used by these buses aren't wide enough for bigger buses. I don't buy it, so I'll keep up with such a request, so in short, sure this plan is a start, but it can be refined for sure to do even better.

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Pushing for cleaner busses is great. The MTA has been far too slow in adopting cleaner bus tech. You have some leverage there. Keep up the good work. 

With that said... realistically, any change on this point will be tiny, given how many total vehicles travel through that part of town every day. I'd say drop in the bucket, but it's more like half a drop. If the MTA says you're nitpicking, they have a point. 

What I strongly disagree with is the argument for fewer busses. Again, you need to move X number of people. What's the alternative?

Ferries are only an alternative to busses for moving people across the river. That's not 100% of anyone's commute. Ferries don't get people to 5th Ave. Ferries don't get people within walking distance of any operating Manhattan subway line. Where will ferries take people? TO A 14TH STREET SHUTTLE BUS. And if you think busses polute... Hoooo boy! You clearly have never been to a ferry terminal! 

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38 minutes ago, rbrome said:

The MTA has been far too slow in adopting cleaner bus tech. You have some leverage there. Keep up the good work.

What confused me, being from Northern California where every diesel bus was gone by 2003 in the Central Valley, is why (MTA) is just now testing out and implementing CNG buses when they've been around since before I first saw an Orion V in 1992...

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52 minutes ago, rbrome said:

Pushing for cleaner busses is great. The MTA has been far too slow in adopting cleaner bus tech. You have some leverage there. Keep up the good work. 

With that said... realistically, any change on this point will be tiny, given how many total vehicles travel through that part of town every day. I'd say drop in the bucket, but it's more like half a drop. If the MTA says you're nitpicking, they have a point. 

What I strongly disagree with is the argument for fewer busses. Again, you need to move X number of people. What's the alternative?

Ferries are only an alternative to busses for moving people across the river. That's not 100% of anyone's commute. Ferries don't get people to 5th Ave. Ferries don't get people within walking distance of any operating Manhattan subway line. Where will ferries take people? TO A 14TH STREET SHUTTLE BUS. And if you think busses polute... Hoooo boy! You clearly have never been to a ferry terminal! 

Uhhh I lived on Staten Island for almost 10 years and commuted via the ferry before switching to the express bus. I'm well aware of what ferries do.  Plenty of people walked to and from the ferry depending on where their office was.  Again, what I said was we should be looking to see if fewer buses can be used and I stand by that.  It's about being efficient.  If we can move more people on other subway lines and a few more ferries, why not?  We shouldn't just run the buses just because.  It's like the (MTA) with the LIRR plan.  They ran ferries that no one used.  Sure, there should be enough buses to move people comfortably, but don't just have buses running around for the sake of it.

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20 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Uhhh I lived on Staten Island for almost 10 years and commuted via the ferry before switching to the express bus. I'm well aware of what ferries do.  Plenty of people walked to and from the ferry depending on where their office was. 

Sure, there are plenty of office buildings in FiDi. What does that have to do with anything? This is about substituting for the (L). How many office buildings are there in Alphabet City?  How many uptown/downtown subway lines can you easily walk to from ferry landings at Stuyvesant Town and Corlears Hook?

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1 minute ago, rbrome said:

Sure, there are plenty of office buildings in FiDi. What does that have to do with anything? This is about substituting for the (L). How many office buildings are there in Alphabet City?  How many uptown/downtown subway lines can you easily walk to from ferry landings at Stuyvesant Town and Corlears Hook?

Plenty of people get on and off around 1st Avenue because that's the first and last stop in Manhattan, so I'm pretty sure people East of 1st Avenue walk over to the (L) that would use the ferry service. I've had several meetings down there and the closest subway station for me coming from the Lower East Side was that 1st Avenue stop.

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3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Plenty of people get on and off around 1st Avenue because that's the first and last stop in Manhattan, so I'm pretty sure people East of 1st Avenue walk over to the (L) that would use the ferry service. I've had several meetings down there and the closest subway station for me coming from the Lower East Side was that 1st Avenue stop.

People live there, sure. It's a stop. People use it. That's not the point. 

The point is that the vast majority of commuters coming from Brooklyn are going further west, and/or connecting to another line. Because everything near 1st Av is mostly residential. Commercial zoning doesn't really start until 3rd Ave. 

It's pretty obvious looking at a zoning map: 

map12c.pdf

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11 minutes ago, rbrome said:

People live there, sure. It's a stop. People use it. That's not the point. 

The point is that the vast majority of commuters coming from Brooklyn are going further west, and/or connecting to another line. Because everything near 1st Av is mostly residential. Commercial zoning doesn't really start until 3rd Ave. 

It's pretty obvious looking at a zoning map: 

map12c.pdf

People live there... Please... There's plenty of stores along 1st Avenue. People SHOP, do business and everything else from all over. It's not just a stop.  It's a BIG stop.  You have tons of businesses and restaurants all along 2nd Avenue going down to Houston. That stop isn't as big as Union Square or maybe 8th Avenue because there are no subway connections, but it definitely sees its usage.  I've used the (L) plenty of times and have been down there enough and all along 14th street.  I frequent plenty of restaurants near and south of 14th street as well and I don't live in the area, so this isn't just about people commuting to and from, not unless you think that the surrounding areas should just shut down and focus solely on the commuters going further west... I'm also down there for meetings for business.  

This plan should focus on moving people, not just commuters.  The idea is for the surrounding communities to continue to THRIVE as they have been, and that includes the restaurants and shops and markets.

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