SI Express Route Public Hearing Request, M4 Truncation, July 2018 Schedule Changes

[limitednyc]

idea amsterdam ave -125st coridor  m101  8th street to 125 and 12th ave , new route m 105  ams  125 - ams 193.

[Q43LTD]

1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Probably via Queensboro lower level, via 59th/60th east of the Plaza, and via 59th from 5th to Columbus Circle.

I don't see any adequate space to layover at Columbus Circle 

[Orion6025]

51 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

I don't see any adequate space to layover at Columbus Circle 

The best they can do is put them over on broadway and 58/57 streets with the m10 and m12 or find somewhere along 59 street [central park south portion].

--

Regardless, it's a ridiculous route. A Q66 SBS should stay in Queens...

[R68OnBroadway]

On a side note, should there be a bus route from Queens that runs up to the UWS, similarly to how the Q32 runs into midtown? Getting from western Queens to the UWS is a PITA which either requires backtracking to TS or making multiple transfers (could be  to  to  to  on a weekend)... I wonder if the MTA designated that trip as "difficult trip"...

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

On a side note, should there be a bus route from Queens that runs up to the UWS, similarly to how the Q32 runs into midtown? Getting from western Queens to the UWS is a PITA which either requires backtracking to TS or making multiple transfers (could be  to  to  to  on a weekend)... I wonder if the MTA designated that trip as "difficult trip"...

I really, really don't think a bus like that would have any hope of decent runtime or reliability. The farthest I'd extend a bus like that would be to Columbus Circle.

[R68OnBroadway]

5 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I really, really don't think a bus like that would have any hope of decent runtime or reliability. The farthest I'd extend a bus like that would be to Columbus Circle.

Extending as far as Columbus would be fine as there you have a transfer to CPW and 7th/Bway. Would extending the Q101 work?

[bobtehpanda]

11 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Extending as far as Columbus would be fine as there you have a transfer to CPW and 7th/Bway. Would extending the Q101 work?

Honestly, I think the runtime and reliability of such a bus would be so slow you'd basically be limited to QBP - Columbus Circle. Court Square at the farthest.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 4/24/2018 at 8:29 PM, limitednyc said:

idea amsterdam ave -125st coridor  m101  8th street to 125 and 12th ave , new route m 105  ams  125 - ams 193.

Your M105 could easily be a rerouted/extended M11.

[limitednyc]

20 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Your M105 could easily be a rerouted/extended M11.

could be but the idea is to create shorter routes.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

5 minutes ago, limitednyc said:

could be but the idea is to create shorter routes.

This is true, but the M11 to 193rd would still be shorter than the M101 is now.

[limitednyc]

Just now, Gotham Bus Co. said:

This is true, but the M11 to 193rd would still be shorter than the M101 is now.

point excepted, what would take  the  north of the end of the 11.

[checkmatechamp13]

4 minutes ago, limitednyc said:

point excepted, what would take  the  north of the end of the 11.

In this scenario you could send the M105 to Riverbank State Park. In any case there's more turnover at Lexington than Amsterdam, so Lexington is a better option (and the routes would be a little more balanced in length)

@Gotham Bus Co. The M104 is an option in that scenario and it's shorter than the M11

[MysteriousBtrain]

Regarding the M105 idea, it would be easier to have the M101 take the north section and terminate with the M100 at 1/2 Av and expand the M98 to run at all times except late nights and extend it back to 32 St. And maybe add M102 LTD's at least rush hours.

[checkmatechamp13]

10 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Regarding the M105 idea, it would be easier to have the M101 take the north section and terminate with the M100 at 1/2 Av and expand the M98 to run at all times except late nights and extend it back to 32 St. And maybe add M102 LTD's at least rush hours.

I'd just extend it to 8th Street. The M101 is more frequent than the M102/103 and so that would be a big service cut between 8th & 33rd/34th (and would also remove some/all of their limited-stop service)

[B35 via Church]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 8:29 PM, limitednyc said:

idea amsterdam ave - 125st coridor 

* m101:  8th street to 125 and 12th ave
* new route m 105:  ams  125 - ams 193.

There are more riders from areas north of 125th that are trying to get to areas east of Amsterdam/125th along 125th, than there are 3rd/Lex riders that need areas west of 3rd/125th along 125th.... The existence of an "m105" of sorts, would have riders emanating from north of 125th in that service area, piling onto the M100 at a higher rate than they are now (instead of using the M100/101 interchangeably as they currently do)....

Having a bus running along Amsterdam north of 125th terminate at Amsterdam/125th, would be a stub....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

There are more riders from areas north of 125th that are trying to get to areas east of Amsterdam/125th along 125th, than there are 3rd/Lex riders that need areas west of 3rd/125th along 125th.... The existence of an "m105" of sorts, would have riders emanating from north of 125th in that service area, piling onto the M100 at a higher rate than they are now (instead of using the M100/101 interchangeably as they currently do)....

Having a bus running along Amsterdam north of 125th terminate at Amsterdam/125th, would be a stub....

I have to say (not directed at you - a general comment to what I've been reading which irks me) I really don't support any truncation/splitting of the M101 and I don't know why so many people here keep suggesting it. It's like why do we need to keep screwing over riders and FORCING the damn subway down their throats? There are A LOT of disabled people and others that prefer the M101 and need it go from East to West.  We should be looking at why lines are failing, not just splitting them up and thinking that's going to do the trick.  It isn't. 

My proposal looks at how to make the current line WORK.  I think it can with the following:

-Enforce bus lanes along all corridors

-Find a way to eliminate/reduce all of the double and triple parking along Lexington.  That alone is what kills the route and leads to so much bunching. 3rd Avenue is wide because it once was a two way street. Lexington is much narrower and all of the double and triple parking is just insane. It needs to be dealt with.  Splitting the route in two doesn't address the real elephant in the room. You'd STILL have insane bunching.

-Stop having the damn operators switch at 99th street. It kills way too much time.  Extremely frustrating. They should switch drivers elsewhere.  

-Better management out of Tuskegee.  Some drivers just don't give a damn out of that depot and management needs to get them in line.  More courteous service with buses making an effort to stay on time. As it currently stands, I think drivers are left out to hang... No help along Lex, bus lanes not enforced.  It's a mess.  The M101, M102 and M103 all need help. Too much bunching and customers are irate and I don't blame them.

The amount of countdown clocks that have now popped up along Lex and 3rd Avenues says a lot.  

[EastFlatbushLarry]

8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Stop having the damn operators switch at 99th street. It kills way too much time.  Extremely frustrating. They should switch drivers elsewhere.  

for that to happen, the M101/2/3 would have to run out of another depot. and the current MaBSTOA configuration being what it is, depot-wise, what other depot could accommodate these lines with all artics... NOT including Quill (because if that were the case, there would be monumental line shifting, which would take us WAY off topic)

unless every run out of 100 street on the M101/2/3 becomes pull out/pull in... but having worked there, i gotta tell ya, service would become SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE, believe it or not.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

for that to happen, the M101/2/3 would have to run out of another depot. and the current MaBSTOA configuration being what it is, depot-wise, what other depot could accommodate these lines with all artics... NOT including Quill (because if that were the case, there would be monumental line shifting, which would take us WAY off topic)

 

The lines should run out of there.  However, what I find irritating is how service deteriorates significantly AFTER and BEFORE 96th street.  So the depot is by 100th street, but the lines are running into some of the poorest areas of the City where people need service the most and yet they can't get it. That needs to be fixed.  Why can't they switch drivers down by 8th street?  If this was happening on the Upper East Side, it wouldn't be tolerated, and note how many countdown clocks have gone up on the Upper East Side because elected officials there secured funding for them... That and the new buses on the line...

The proposals to basically sever the line at 125th just goes to what I stated above...

 

[EastFlatbushLarry]

12 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

-Better management out of Tuskegee.  Some drivers just don't give a damn out of that depot and management needs to get them in line.

i agree 1000%. although, as the old saying goes, a few rotten apples spoil the bunch... the 30% of shitty operators and bus maintainers in 100 street makes that whole yard look TERRIBLE. and to be completely honest, i'd say the union office has alot to do with the poor attitude operators carry in that building... and hence, it's the union's responsibility to get things rolling correctly. it is really a high school/catty/crabs in a barrel mentality in 100 street. speaking from experience, it's the worst depot i've worked in... hands down. way too many people making half-decent money that devote time & energy to all the WRONG things.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

i agree 1000%. although, as the old saying goes, a few rotten apples spoil the bunch... the 30% of shitty operators and bus maintainers in 100 street makes that whole yard look TERRIBLE. and to be completely honest, i'd say the union office has alot to do with the poor attitude operators carry in that building... and hence, it's the union's responsibility to get things rolling correctly. it is really a high school/catty/crabs in a barrel mentality in 100 street. speaking from experience, it's the worst depot i've worked in... hands down. way too many people making half-decent money that devote time & energy to all the WRONG things.

I know because my uncle used to work out of the depot before he switched to Quill.  I'm talking when I was kid I used to ride on weekends with him.  He'd have to tell people to get off of the bus so he could get up the hill. lol The depot has come a long way for sure.  It was a dump before the rebuild, but despite better fleet, maintenance is horrendous. I was crossing 3rd Avenue a week or two ago on the Upper East Side, and a newer low floor bus passed by making the loudest noise. I was like what in the hell is that?  On a new bus like that? 

The other frustrating thing is having buses go local that suddenly switch to limited stops or suddenly go OOS forcing you to switch to yet another bus.  

Didn't they have the M86 for a bit? The way they ran the M86 versus the M101/102/103 was telling and we both know it's political given where the M86 runs.  It has SBS now and it still has bunching issues, but the operators (generally speaking) were much nicer, made an effort to stay on-time and they'd even send buses further down the line to try to pick up the slack if there were gaps in service, so why can't the same effort be made for the M101/102/103?

[EastFlatbushLarry]

9 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Why can't they switch drivers down by 8th street? 

brother, operators ALREADY have a "hard time" getting from the house to 3rd avenue (or from the mezzanine to their waiting bus literally outside the house) so having reliefs done at Cooper Union will result in operators getting "lost" from point 'a' to 'b'.  the reason why i said NOT quill, is because of the current climate being what it is in MaBSTOA, having the SBS lines run out of quill (allegedly) and honestly, it's no sure bet that operators will get to & from Quill to cooper union in an orderly & timely fashion... that's a bit of a journey, no matter how you slice it... and pull-ins/pull-outs from cooper... in today's traffic climate? Late-slips for every operator guaranteed, regardless who's the SLD on post at cooper union

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 minutes ago, EastFlatbushLarry said:

brother, operators ALREADY have a "hard time" getting from the house to 3rd avenue (or from the mezzanine to their waiting bus literally outside the house) so having reliefs done at Cooper Union will result in operators getting "lost" from point 'a' to 'b'.  the reason why i said NOT quill, is because of the current climate being what it is in MaBSTOA, having the SBS lines run out of quill (allegedly) and honestly, it's no sure bet that operators will get to & from Quill to cooper union in an orderly & timely fashion... that's a bit of a journey, no matter how you slice it... and pull-ins/pull-outs from cooper... in today's traffic climate? Late-slips for every operator guaranteed, regardless who's the SLD on post at cooper union

Well I'm sorry but the current set-up is a disaster.  Having passengers sit and wait at 99th street for 10 - 15 minutes is just unacceptable, and I've filed numerous complaints about this to the . They need to address this issue.  So many people get annoyed that they get off and walk or walk over to the subway; that or the B/O tells everyone to empty off of his bus and get the next one.  It's almost as if they are running two types of services:  One from 8th street, and further south to 99th street and then another service from 99th street to points North and vice versa because I see the same thing heading South. It doesn't have to be 8th street where the change is done, but really, imagine having the M86 or some other high volume line done with a split like that.  It negatively impacts ridership, and worse of all, it just makes bunching that much worse.  

I suppose the only way to do it out of the depot would be to increase the costs on the line by ensuring that drivers had adequate time to switch...

[B35 via Church]

22 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I have to say (not directed at you - a general comment to what I've been reading which irks me) I really don't support any truncation/splitting of the M101 and I don't know why so many people here keep suggesting it. It's like why do we need to keep screwing over riders and FORCING the damn subway down their throats? There are A LOT of disabled people and others that prefer the M101 and need it go from East to West.  We should be looking at why lines are failing, not just splitting them up and thinking that's going to do the trick.  It isn't. 

My proposal looks at how to make the current line WORK.  I think it can with the following:

-Enforce bus lanes along all corridors

-Find a way to eliminate/reduce all of the double and triple parking along Lexington.  That alone is what kills the route and leads to so much bunching. 3rd Avenue is wide because it once was a two way street. Lexington is much narrower and all of the double and triple parking is just insane. It needs to be dealt with.  Splitting the route in two doesn't address the real elephant in the room. You'd STILL have insane bunching.

-Stop having the damn operators switch at 99th street. It kills way too much time.  Extremely frustrating. They should switch drivers elsewhere.  

-Better management out of Tuskegee.  Some drivers just don't give a damn out of that depot and management needs to get them in line.  More courteous service with buses making an effort to stay on time. As it currently stands, I think drivers are left out to hang... No help along Lex, bus lanes not enforced.  It's a mess.  The M101, M102 and M103 all need help. Too much bunching and customers are irate and I don't blame them.

The amount of countdown clocks that have now popped up along Lex and 3rd Avenues says a lot.  

The bunching the M101 undergoes, large in part, is actually due to/caused by having to contend with the shitshow that is 125th..... The way I see it, there aren't too many riders south of East Harlem that are trying to get to 125th (and points north) & in the opposite direction (meaning, heading SB), you'll find that most M101 riders from Ft. George to W. Harlem tend to not pan further than say, 86th..... We currently have the M101 running all the way to Ft. George & the M102 running to Harlem (147th) & quite frankly, that only exacerbates matters for the very/many 3rd/Lex riders that aren't trying to get anywhere near E. Harlem, let alone Harlem.... Never mind that (as you mention, on top of it), they have to put with with the crap that plagues 3rd/Lex as it is..... It's just too much w/ the M101 nowadays.... A line has to be drawn somewhere....

Case in point, the M100 has become popular north of 125th as of, I'd say, the last decade or so & the M101 is losing its popularity in that general region of Manhattan.... Instead of giving those riders more M100 service, & aiming to increase efficiency for the masses of 3rd/Lex riders (those that get on & off along 3rd/Lex), they continue on with this abomination (I'd even argue antiquated) of a route....

 

[EastFlatbushLarry]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Didn't they have the M86 for a bit? The way they ran the M86 versus the M101/102/103 was telling and we both know it's political given where the M86 runs.

when i worked there, any operator who had a run on the 86 had priority to pull out a bus before any of the avenue runs (M101/2/3) yes, that was because of the complaints that came from buses being late pulling out to york avenue. the 86 ran out of 100 street from the time that place re-opened... people forget that for many years, 100 street only had the 86 & the 101/2/3... so there wasn't much variety run-wise until the 96/106 showed up

 

8 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

why can't the same effort be made for the M101/102/103?

because, of the length of the lines, the areas they serve & the multiple chokepoints on the avenues. over the years, i've known & seen one too many SLD's stand on 125 & amsterdam, 125 & lex, in front of 100 street depot, 34 street (both ways) attempt to be heroes and "save" the m101/2/3 from imminent doom. those lines are just a self fulfilling prophecy, beholden to the traffic conditions on the east side of manhattan. the m15 local suffers from the exact same issues, ironically... difference being: the M15sbs gliding by and some resemblence of a bus lane. which is why to your point i do agree with you. if certain efforts were made on lex/3rd, maybe things would improve. but as transit has shown, they're philosophy has been "wait until the second avenue line opens, and watch things get better". there's no way at least one line on 3rd/lex couldn't have been SBS'd... not saying it's a solve all, but it'll solve some. yet as i previously stated, the culture in 100 street is what needs to change first & foremost, then have some sort of task force to assist SLD's in doing their jobs adjusting buses... and clearing out the chokepoints

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

The bunching the M101 undergoes, large in part, is actually due to/caused by having to contend with the shitshow that is 125th..... The way I see it, there aren't too many riders south of East Harlem that are trying to get to 125th (and points north) & in the opposite direction (meaning, heading SB), you'll find that most M101 riders from Ft. George to W. Harlem tend to not pan further than say, 86th..... We currently have the M101 running all the way to Ft. George & the M102 running to Harlem (147th) & quite frankly, that only exacerbates matters for the very/many 3rd/Lex riders that aren't trying to get anywhere near E. Harlem, let alone Harlem.... Never mind that (as you mention, on top of it), they have to put with with the crap that plagues 3rd/Lex as it is..... It's just too much w/ the M101 nowadays.... A line has to be drawn somewhere....

Case in point, the M100 has become popular north of 125th as of, I'd say, the last decade or so & the M101 is losing its popularity in that general region of Manhattan.... Instead of giving those riders more M100 service, & aiming to increase efficiency for the masses of 3rd/Lex riders (those that get on & off along 3rd/Lex), they continue on with this abomination (I'd even argue antiquated) of a route....

 

What do you propose? I tend to respect your opinions more since you actually use the routes and understand ridership patterns better than most that either have an angle of "saving money" or look at a map.  We're just talking about how to make the line more efficient, putting money and everything else aside...