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SI Express Route Public Hearing Request, M4 Truncation, July 2018 Schedule Changes


checkmatechamp13

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On 7/16/2018 at 9:09 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

So am I understanding this correctly... The North Shore has the SIM3c and SIM4c off-peak and weekends... 

Correct.

On 7/16/2018 at 9:09 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Mid Island/South Shore... SIM1c, SIM2 and SIM4 run off-peak and weekends... I don't understand why the SIM2 doesn't serve Midtown like the other weekend routes.  Someone from the South Shore should have access to both Downtown and Midtown via the express bus.

The SIM2 was considered an extra route. Supposedly, running the SIM1C/3C/4C would've been cost-neutral, but off-peak service on the SIM2 cost an extra $1 million.

In any case, if they're really that spoiled that they don't want to transfer in Manhattan, they can drive to the ETC and catch the SIM1C or SIM4C. For those who want a more reliable ride that isn't tied up in Midtown traffic, they have the SIM2 available. If Midtown service was that much of an issue, I'd rather see the SIM26 run off-peak, since at least that provides more coverage on the South Shore.

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On 7/16/2018 at 9:09 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

So am I understanding this correctly... The North Shore has the SIM3c and SIM4c off-peak and weekends... 

Mid Island/South Shore... SIM1c, SIM2 and SIM4 run off-peak and weekends... I don't understand why the SIM2 doesn't serve Midtown like the other weekend routes.  Someone from the South Shore should have access to both Downtown and Midtown via the express bus.

i could see if people from Huguenot complain of lack of evening and weekend service to midtown them rerouting the sim 4c  via sim 8.

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32 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Correct.

The SIM2 was considered an extra route. Supposedly, running the SIM1C/3C/4C would've been cost-neutral, but off-peak service on the SIM2 cost an extra $1 million.

In any case, if they're really that spoiled that they don't want to transfer in Manhattan, they can drive to the ETC and catch the SIM1C or SIM4C. For those who want a more reliable ride that isn't tied up in Midtown traffic, they have the SIM2 available. If Midtown service was that much of an issue, I'd rather see the SIM26 run off-peak, since at least that provides more coverage on the South Shore.

People from the South Shore were already driving to ETC for the X1 or the X17 as it is.  I just don't understand how it would cost so much to extend it to 57th street. If they're going to run it, they might as well run it to Midtown with the other routes.  I mean they really think that those two bus lanes on 5th Avenue are going to be the savior (I'll believe it when I see it) so why not... 

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28 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

People from the South Shore were already driving to ETC for the X1 or the X17 as it is.  I just don't understand how it would cost so much to extend it to 57th street. If they're going to run it, they might as well run it to Midtown with the other routes.  I mean they really think that those two bus lanes on 5th Avenue are going to be the savior (I'll believe it when I see it) so why not... 

On the weekends, there's often parades down 5th Avenue, and they detour the buses anyway, even with the bus lanes. In any case, it looks like they're scheduling it for an hour from Tottenville to Worth Street. To extend service to 57th Street is a good 30-45 minutes extra (and that's assuming everything goes according to schedule), so you're talking about a 50-75% increase in the amount of runtime, and therefore, resources required for the route.

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Just now, checkmatechamp13 said:

On the weekends, there's often parades down 5th Avenue, and they detour the buses anyway, even with the bus lanes. In any case, it looks like they're scheduling it for an hour from Tottenville to Worth Street. To extend service to 57th Street is a good 30-45 minutes extra (and that's assuming everything goes according to schedule), so you're talking about a 50-75% increase in the amount of runtime, and therefore, resources required for the route.

When did they advocate for Downtown service on weekends anyway? 

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35 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

When did they advocate for Downtown service on weekends anyway? 

What do you mean? Without the SIM2, they would screw Arden Heights out of off-peak service completely because the SIM4C (basically the X17 with some extra X10 stops) would terminate at Annadale Road.

And since the S56 doesn't run weekends, no SIM2 (which replaces the X17 for them) basically means no transit service.

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47 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

What do you mean? Without the SIM2, they would screw Arden Heights out of off-peak service completely because the SIM4C (basically the X17 with some extra X10 stops) would terminate at Annadale Road.

And since the S56 doesn't run weekends, no SIM2 (which replaces the X17 for them) basically means no transit service.

Just what I said. The SIM2 serves Tottenville. When did they ask for Downtown express bus service on weekends?

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3 hours ago, Vtrain said:

I agreed, the off peak & weekend SIM2C should have been extended to Midtown Manhattan, you think that riders bound for Midtown during this time want to get off in Downtown to take another express bus, the subway or the M55 bus to reach Midtown, the majority of the service during this time is going to Midtown because that is where the ridership is going to.

Which off-peak route bypasses Downtown and goes straight to Midtown? All of the off-peak service runs Downtown and there's plenty of people with destinations in Midtown who use the subway between Downtown and Midtown even when the express bus provides a one-seat ride.

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14 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Which off-peak route bypasses Downtown and goes straight to Midtown? All of the off-peak service runs Downtown and there's plenty of people with destinations in Midtown who use the subway between Downtown and Midtown even when the express bus provides a one-seat ride.

Where are you getting this from? He never said that any route bypassed Downtown.  He said that the SIM2C should be extended to Midtown.  What part of that isn't clear?

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35 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Which off-peak route bypasses Downtown and goes straight to Midtown? All of the off-peak service runs Downtown and there's plenty of people with destinations in Midtown who use the subway between Downtown and Midtown even when the express bus provides a one-seat ride.

He's not saying anything bypasses downtown.... When he says "during this time", he's speaking of the current (as in, service, pre-SIM routes)....

That verbiage threw me off at first too.

 

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22 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Just what I said. The SIM2 serves Tottenville. When did they ask for Downtown express bus service on weekends?

The South Shore (which as you should know as a former Staten Island resident, all neighborhoods west of Richmond Avenue are represented by the same community board, council district, etc, so residents speak through those channels) has been asking for improved express bus service for the longest time. The midday X17 was extended to Tottenville in early 2013. When the redesigned express plan was first released in June 2017, residents asked why there was no expansion in Downtown service (the only route being one that traveled the length of Huguenot Avenue), and so being that Tottenville & Arden Heights (and Rossville) are about as transit-oriented as you'll get on the South Shore, they decided to extend that route (which at that time didn't have a number yet) to Tottenville in the October 2017 rendition. Being that off-peak includes middays in addition to weekends, and the X17 serves Tottenville middays (albeit via a very circuitous route that results in practically nobody riding it in that area), when the off-peak plan was released in March 2018, it was decided that the SIM2 would run off-peak. 

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

He's not saying anything bypasses downtown.... When he says "during this time", he's speaking of the current (as in, service, pre-SIM routes)....

That verbiage threw me off at first too.

Got it, thanks.

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1 minute ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The South Shore (which as you should know as a former Staten Island resident, all neighborhoods west of Richmond Avenue are represented by the same community board, council district, etc, so residents speak through those channels) has been asking for improved express bus service for the longest time. The midday X17 was extended to Tottenville in early 2013. When the redesigned express plan was first released in June 2017, residents asked why there was no expansion in Downtown service (the only route being one that traveled the length of Huguenot Avenue), and so being that Tottenville & Arden Heights (and Rossville) are about as transit-oriented as you'll get on the South Shore, they decided to extend that route (which at that time didn't have a number yet) to Tottenville in the October 2017 rendition. Being that off-peak includes middays in addition to weekends, and the X17 serves Tottenville middays (albeit via a very circuitous route that results in practically nobody riding it in that area), when the off-peak plan was released in March 2018, it was decided that the SIM2 would run off-peak. 

So in essence they gave them Downtown but wouldn't give them Midtown service off-peak?

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Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

So in essence they gave them Downtown but wouldn't give them Midtown service off-peak?

Like I said, right now, they barely have off-peak service. So if the tradeoff was more coverage on the Staten Island end, it seems like a fair deal (Also remember that, at least according to the MTA, the SIM2 off-peak service was an extra $1 million that they weren't planning to spend originally. In practice, I'm seeing so many service cuts on those schedules that I wonder how they can say that aside from that, it's cost-neutral).

In any case, it seems like the MTA is sneakily (but not-so-sneakily) trying to see what they can do to manipulate ridership patterns. You see what they're doing on the North Shore. They're taking the X10's off-peak service levels and putting them on Watchogue Road, while severely reducing service along Gannon Avenue.  In their infinite wisdom, they decided that Watchogue Road should be the primary North Shore corridor. Of course, that's great for those who actually live up by Watchogue Road. In reality, when August 19th comes around, and people are being left behind by SIM4Cs and taking SIM3Cs because that's the only bus that they can fit on that runs anywhere near their area, it'll be making those people's commutes worse, while ultimately forcing people into the corridors the MTA wants them to be on.

What they plan on doing on the South Shore, I'm not sure. Maybe their long-term plan is to shift service Downtown (since most of the current routes are "Midtown via NJ" routes down there). As I've said in the past, the Bloomingdale Road corridor could use a Downtown route as well, even if they cut into the Midtown service (a lot of people take the subway from areas like Union Square up to 34th Street or 42nd Street to catch a South Shore bus, because that's where their bus stops. They could just as easily take the subway in the other direction if an express bus was offered from Downtown).

In any case, I don't like how the MTA talks out of one side of their mouth. On one hand, they say "All routes will have longer hours, and we will make sure that service is maintained in the same general areas at the same times we offer it now". On the other hand, they eliminate evening service in Arden Heights (the SIM2 runs until 8:15pm from Worth Street, and the SIM8 runs until 9pm from 57th Street, compared to the X17 which runs past midnight), and there's routes that have had their spans shortened (the SIM7 has much shorter hours than the X7, and the SIM35 basically takes the X14's short span and copies-and-pastes that schedule to start from Frankfort Street instead of 57th Street. So much for running until 7pm).  

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11 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Like I said, right now, they barely have off-peak service. So if the tradeoff was more coverage on the Staten Island end, it seems like a fair deal (Also remember that, at least according to the MTA, the SIM2 off-peak service was an extra $1 million that they weren't planning to spend originally. In practice, I'm seeing so many service cuts on those schedules that I wonder how they can say that aside from that, it's cost-neutral).

In any case, it seems like the MTA is sneakily (but not-so-sneakily) trying to see what they can do to manipulate ridership patterns. You see what they're doing on the North Shore. They're taking the X10's off-peak service levels and putting them on Watchogue Road, while severely reducing service along Gannon Avenue.  In their infinite wisdom, they decided that Watchogue Road should be the primary North Shore corridor. Of course, that's great for those who actually live up by Watchogue Road. In reality, when August 19th comes around, and people are being left behind by SIM4Cs and taking SIM3Cs because that's the only bus that they can fit on that runs anywhere near their area, it'll be making those people's commutes worse, while ultimately forcing people into the corridors the MTA wants them to be on.

What they plan on doing on the South Shore, I'm not sure. Maybe their long-term plan is to shift service Downtown (since most of the current routes are "Midtown via NJ" routes down there). As I've said in the past, the Bloomingdale Road corridor could use a Downtown route as well, even if they cut into the Midtown service (a lot of people take the subway from areas like Union Square up to 34th Street or 42nd Street to catch a South Shore bus, because that's where their bus stops. They could just as easily take the subway in the other direction if an express bus was offered from Downtown).

In any case, I don't like how the MTA talks out of one side of their mouth. On one hand, they say "All routes will have longer hours, and we will make sure that service is maintained in the same general areas at the same times we offer it now". On the other hand, they eliminate evening service in Arden Heights (the SIM2 runs until 8:15pm from Worth Street, and the SIM8 runs until 9pm from 57th Street, compared to the X17 which runs past midnight), and there's routes that have had their spans shortened (the SIM7 has much shorter hours than the X7, and the SIM35 basically takes the X14's short span and copies-and-pastes that schedule to start from Frankfort Street instead of 57th Street. So much for running until 7pm).  

I've seen the schedules for the SIM2, the off peak service is ridiculous. The SIM7 southbound ends at 7 PM, and the SIM35 ends at 7 PM as well at Sunnyside.

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27 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

I've seen the schedules for the SIM2, the off peak service is ridiculous. The SIM7 southbound ends at 7 PM, and the SIM35 ends at 7 PM as well at Sunnyside.

Ending peak service at 19:00 is reasonable.  What exactly is ridiculous about the SIM2 off-peak service?  If it runs every 30 minutes, that's more than reasonable.  Every hour would be stingy but better than nothing.  I would hope that they tweak things and add more service as time goes on.

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1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

I've seen the schedules for the SIM2, the off peak service is ridiculous. The SIM7 southbound ends at 7 PM, and the SIM35 ends at 7 PM as well at Sunnyside.

The SIM35 ends at 6:05 not 7. They basically copied the X14 schedule for that bus. The only major thing they changed is that AM service ends at 9 instead of 8:25.

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13 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Like I said, right now, they barely have off-peak service. So if the tradeoff was more coverage on the Staten Island end, it seems like a fair deal (Also remember that, at least according to the MTA, the SIM2 off-peak service was an extra $1 million that they weren't planning to spend originally. In practice, I'm seeing so many service cuts on those schedules that I wonder how they can say that aside from that, it's cost-neutral).

In any case, it seems like the MTA is sneakily (but not-so-sneakily) trying to see what they can do to manipulate ridership patterns. You see what they're doing on the North Shore. They're taking the X10's off-peak service levels and putting them on Watchogue Road, while severely reducing service along Gannon Avenue.  In their infinite wisdom, they decided that Watchogue Road should be the primary North Shore corridor. Of course, that's great for those who actually live up by Watchogue Road. In reality, when August 19th comes around, and people are being left behind by SIM4Cs and taking SIM3Cs because that's the only bus that they can fit on that runs anywhere near their area, it'll be making those people's commutes worse, while ultimately forcing people into the corridors the MTA wants them to be on.

What they plan on doing on the South Shore, I'm not sure. Maybe their long-term plan is to shift service Downtown (since most of the current routes are "Midtown via NJ" routes down there). As I've said in the past, the Bloomingdale Road corridor could use a Downtown route as well, even if they cut into the Midtown service (a lot of people take the subway from areas like Union Square up to 34th Street or 42nd Street to catch a South Shore bus, because that's where their bus stops. They could just as easily take the subway in the other direction if an express bus was offered from Downtown).

In any case, I don't like how the MTA talks out of one side of their mouth. On one hand, they say "All routes will have longer hours, and we will make sure that service is maintained in the same general areas at the same times we offer it now". On the other hand, they eliminate evening service in Arden Heights (the SIM2 runs until 8:15pm from Worth Street, and the SIM8 runs until 9pm from 57th Street, compared to the X17 which runs past midnight), and there's routes that have had their spans shortened (the SIM7 has much shorter hours than the X7, and the SIM35 basically takes the X14's short span and copies-and-pastes that schedule to start from Frankfort Street instead of 57th Street. So much for running until 7pm).  

Running the service along Watchogue and Victory isn't the worst thing in the world to be honest, because there is absolutely NOTHING along Gannon Avenue but residential houses and it's isolated.  Having it run along Victory gives people options. If the express bus is a mess, they can always jump on a local bus along Victory OR wait in a store somewhere and relax until the bus comes or get an Uber. There have been times when I've taken car service over to Slosson only to really have nowhere to wait while there's no bus and it's freezing outside and I'm pretty much stuck and don't want to spend another $10 - 15 dollars for car service to another express bus.  On weekends, I tried to keep car service at a max of $20 - 30 for Saturday and for Sunday.  If I'm going to spend upwards of $45 then I might as well just take car service to the City directly.

Additionally, waiting upwards of 45 minutes out in the elements is no fun, and there aren't that many shelters along the X10 route on the Staten Island side. There's some along Richmond and Victory, but along Gannon there's only a few here and there, such as the one by Schmidts Lane.  This also makes it a bit easier for the people that are north of Victory Blvd.  They must know how many people started driving to the X12 when they cut out the X16, especially from West Brighton. Even I would take car service to the X12 if I wanted to sleep in later.  There is plenty of parking along Slosson, and in and around Victory Blvd too.  This should make the express bus more visible and accessible in the long-term. 

Sometimes I'd even have car service pick me up along Victory because all of the commercial businesses are there and it's just better waiting there. You can get things from the market there by Manor Rd then jump in the car versus sitting around and waiting along Gannon.  There was a guy who lived between the X10 and the X12 and of course he always opted for the X12 because it was faster and closer to his house.  Most of the people that I see getting off of the X10 along Gannon are being picked up from it so that means they may not be all that close to it and they may be traveling further south to reach it.  The only issue that I could see is traffic along Victory versus Gannon, but otherwise I think it's a good idea, not to mention the long about way that the X10 takes to get to Port Richmond.  God that commute feels like it takes forever if you want to stop off at say Shop Rite on Richmond Avenue. It's MUCH faster on the X12.  Even with the stops along the service road on the weekends, it should be faster than the X10.

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24 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

The SIM35 ends at 6:05 not 7. They basically copied the X14 schedule for that bus. The only major thing they changed is that AM service ends at 9 instead of 8:25.

SIM30 excuse me, haven't had the chance to see the SIM35 scheduel yet.

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2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Ending peak service at 19:00 is reasonable.  What exactly is ridiculous about the SIM2 off-peak service?  If it runs every 30 minutes, that's more than reasonable.  Every hour would be stingy but better than nothing.  I would hope that they tweak things and add more service as time goes on.

It ends at 8:15pm every day. On weekends, that's around an hour earlier than the X17. On weekdays, that's over 4 hours earlier than the X17.

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7 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

It ends at 8:15pm every day. On weekends, that's around an hour earlier than the X17. On weekdays, that's over 4 hours earlier than the X17.

My reasonable comment was for the SIM30 considering that it used to end earlier.  For the SIM2, I wasn't sure what the schedule was.  Seems pretty stupid quite frankly.  I would think with all of the changes that they made to supposedly "speed up service" they could've maintained some of the spans that they had before.

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6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

My reasonable comment was for the SIM30 considering that it used to end earlier.  For the SIM2, I wasn't sure what the schedule was.  Seems pretty stupid quite frankly.  I would think with all of the changes that they made to supposedly "speed up service" they could've maintained some of the spans that they had before.

I agree.

7 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Running the service along Watchogue and Victory isn't the worst thing in the world to be honest, because there is absolutely NOTHING along Gannon Avenue but residential houses and it's isolated.  Having it run along Victory gives people options. If the express bus is a mess, they can always jump on a local bus along Victory OR wait in a store somewhere and relax until the bus comes or get an Uber. There have been times when I've taken car service over to Slosson only to really have nowhere to wait while there's no bus and it's freezing outside and I'm pretty much stuck and don't want to spend another $10 - 15 dollars for car service to another express bus.  On weekends, I tried to keep car service at a max of $20 - 30 for Saturday and for Sunday.  If I'm going to spend upwards of $45 then I might as well just take car service to the City directly.

Additionally, waiting upwards of 45 minutes out in the elements is no fun, and there aren't that many shelters along the X10 route on the Staten Island side. There's some along Richmond and Victory, but along Gannon there's only a few here and there, such as the one by Schmidts Lane.  This also makes it a bit easier for the people that are north of Victory Blvd.  They must know how many people started driving to the X12 when they cut out the X16, especially from West Brighton. Even I would take car service to the X12 if I wanted to sleep in later.  There is plenty of parking along Slosson, and in and around Victory Blvd too.  This should make the express bus more visible and accessible in the long-term. 

Sometimes I'd even have car service pick me up along Victory because all of the commercial businesses are there and it's just better waiting there. You can get things from the market there by Manor Rd then jump in the car versus sitting around and waiting along Gannon.  There was a guy who lived between the X10 and the X12 and of course he always opted for the X12 because it was faster and closer to his house.  Most of the people that I see getting off of the X10 along Gannon are being picked up from it so that means they may not be all that close to it and they may be traveling further south to reach it.  The only issue that I could see is traffic along Victory versus Gannon, but otherwise I think it's a good idea, not to mention the long about way that the X10 takes to get to Port Richmond.  God that commute feels like it takes forever if you want to stop off at say Shop Rite on Richmond Avenue. It's MUCH faster on the X12.  Even with the stops along the service road on the weekends, it should be faster than the X10.

Yeah, but at the same time, you can't ignore the people who presently live in the vicinity of Gannon. East of Bradley isn't as big of a deal, because Gannon & Victory are a few blocks apart, but west of there, Watchogue to Gannon is a pretty long walk (especially south of the SIE where you have to first get to a street that crosses under or over the SIE).

In any case, if they want to reduce service on Gannon, then fine, but don't sit there and combine that section with another heavily-utilized route and reduce the frequencies on top of that. That's just a recipe for disaster. I guarantee you that with those headways, there will be tons of people getting flagged by SRO buses. If they want to give that area the South Shore treatment and just run the SIM32 to Downtown every 30 minutes off-peak (and leave the SIM4 on the SIE), that's fine. If they want to run the SIM4C more frequently to accommodate both Richmond & Gannon riders, I can live with that. Heck, if they want to run the SIM4 & SIM32 to Downtown (and terminate at Worth Street), and then run the SIM3 to Midtown (via the FDR) that might work too.

In the long run, the SIM3C may end up warranting those headways in the long run (and I'm contacting some community groups in Westerleigh to spread the word so that they know the extra service is available to them). But in the short-term, people are still going to go to Gannon because that's where they're used to catching the bus, and that's where you're going to have overcrowded buses and people left behind (both Manhattan-bound and Staten Island-bound). 

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45 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

 

I agree.

Yeah, but at the same time, you can't ignore the people who presently live in the vicinity of Gannon. East of Bradley isn't as big of a deal, because Gannon & Victory are a few blocks apart, but west of there, Watchogue to Gannon is a pretty long walk (especially south of the SIE where you have to first get to a street that crosses under or over the SIE).

In any case, if they want to reduce service on Gannon, then fine, but don't sit there and combine that section with another heavily-utilized route and reduce the frequencies on top of that. That's just a recipe for disaster. I guarantee you that with those headways, there will be tons of people getting flagged by SRO buses. If they want to give that area the South Shore treatment and just run the SIM32 to Downtown every 30 minutes off-peak (and leave the SIM4 on the SIE), that's fine. If they want to run the SIM4C more frequently to accommodate both Richmond & Gannon riders, I can live with that. Heck, if they want to run the SIM4 & SIM32 to Downtown (and terminate at Worth Street), and then run the SIM3 to Midtown (via the FDR) that might work too.

In the long run, the SIM3C may end up warranting those headways in the long run (and I'm contacting some community groups in Westerleigh to spread the word so that they know the extra service is available to them). But in the short-term, people are still going to go to Gannon because that's where they're used to catching the bus, and that's where you're going to have overcrowded buses and people left behind (both Manhattan-bound and Staten Island-bound). 

Yeah it may be a problem, especially for those people that are used to driving to Gannon, but if people get used to the Watchogue routing I think that route will be popular as well. The X12 especially in the morning has continued to grow and they've been adding service and expanding the span a bit too.

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