Plan To Restructure The NYC Bus System

[Jdog14]

Just now, OIG119 said:

Is it supposed to be different from the local?

Assuming that they haven't finished it yet, it has to be ...

[Gotham Bus Co.]

12 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

...The plan, described by NYC Transit President Andy Byford as an outline to “reinvent and re-imagine” service, calls for a re-evaluation of the designs of every bus route....

I'm just waiting for the pundits to say something along the lines of..."If you're announcing this now, then you have already completed the plan and you should just disclose what you plan to cut."

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

11 hours ago, Deucey said:

Never understood why buses at the top of Manhattan needed to go to the bottom of the island when there's trains, but that's just me...

The M4's, M7's, M101's, etc. aren't there to serve as alternative to trains (besides when the subway goes extremely bonkers). A (big) part of it has to deal with the MTA not wanting to spend any more money by running two separate routes. 

[bwwnyc123]

It's for riders who doesn't want to take Subway.

[checkmatechamp13]

11 hours ago, Deucey said:

So when I was 15, my grandmother - who lived on Findlay Av/168th in the Bx, decided we had to go grocery shopping. She was 69 at the time.

This woman had us riding every freaking bus from there to Macy's on 34th to get groceries - back when Herald Square sold groceries. IIRC, it was a 3 hour trip down, and two fares including the transfer after getting off Grant Hwy. And this was back in the mid-90s when bus service wasn't so shitty.

Granted, she had her mobility issues, but she made it up and down the stairs in her tenement and up and down the hills from Morris Ave.

It'd make more sense, and probably be a better use of resources, to give every senior with mobility issues a city or state disability placard that subsidizes so many car fares each month than to run these bus routes from Inwood to Hells Kitchen or Murray Hill or Bowery.

Those routes have a lot of turnover. Very few people are riding the full length of those routes (especially not on a regular basis). Then there's also the crosstown components. It would be better to just restructure those routes and give transfers for those who need them. 

6 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Neither do I & not in the slightest..... Not a fan of double-deckers being used for fixed route services... To end up seeing one of these things on some highly utilized route here in the city like the B6, B35, B46, the usual suspects, would be a huge deterrent for me to ever want to utilize 'em on any regular basis.... The "cool"/something new & different factor would dissipate after a ride or two, then that's it.....

Claim to increase capacity? Heh, not along with being commensurate with current service levels being provided on these routes, that's for sure.....

Double-deckers for express routes are basically the equivalent of articulateds on local routes.

I'm personally not opposed to the idea of using it as a way to save money, but like articulateds, it should only be used on the most frequent routes and only during rush hour. The problem is that there's only a handful of express routes in the city where this applies (and if they're restricted from the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, that pretty much limits them to a couple of the "via NJ" routes)

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The M4's, M7's, M101's, etc. aren't there to serve as alternative to trains (besides when the subway goes extremely bonkers). A (big) part of it has to deal with the MTA not wanting to spend any more money by running two separate routes. 

The M101 could be split pretty neatly at 125th & Lexington (as discussed in the "Manhattan Proposals" thread, the M98 can cover the southern portion to make the southern split more useful). The longer the route, the more delay-prone it is, which means the more overtime you have to pay out, so if done right, splitting it might actually save money. Also, it makes it easier to tweak the headways in a way that saves money (e.g. If a route warrants 8 minute headways on the southern portion and 10 minute headways on the northern portion, the MTA will most likely just go with 8 minute headways without short-turns, but if you split it, you can reduce the headways on the northern portion). 

As far as I know, the M4 & M7 don't have any big points with a lot of turnover like that, but it any case, I'm sure it has more to do with the general resistance to change within the MTA (It wasn't like the M4 & M7 were the result of two shorter routes being combined in the first place, like say the B82). 

Which brings me to my last point, if it's taken 3 years to get a simple express bus restructuring implemented in one single borough (the whole thing was supposed to take a year and involve the local buses as well), how is it that all of a sudden, we can get all the routes in the city done in what, a few months? I do sincerely hope that Byford found a way to speed up the process, while still getting it done right.

[Brillant93]

I wonder what they’re going to do in ways if redesigning the bus maps and routes. Are they going to cut some in half like two short routes, combine some, or make newer ones. 

[Deucey]

18 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

I wonder what they’re going to do in ways if redesigning the bus maps and routes. Are they going to cut some in half like two short routes, combine some, or make newer ones. 

I feel like there should be more "micro routes" - at least in Manhattan.

Taking M5 from 148th St to South Ferry back when it did that was okay for killing time or fanning, but pretty wasteful of resources, IMO.

So doing away with it in favor of a micro-route that runs to Wash Heights from 96th/B-way or 72nd/B-way, and another bus from that terminus to 44th St makes more sense to me as far as reliability and resource allocation.

Especially if the routings are done to be feeders to the subway and neighborhood circulators.

[checkmatechamp13]

49 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I feel like there should be more "micro routes" - at least in Manhattan.

Taking M5 from 148th St to South Ferry back when it did that was okay for killing time or fanning, but pretty wasteful of resources, IMO.

So doing away with it in favor of a micro-route that runs to Wash Heights from 96th/B-way or 72nd/B-way, and another bus from that terminus to 44th St makes more sense to me as far as reliability and resource allocation.

Especially if the routings are done to be feeders to the subway and neighborhood circulators.

178th Street to 96th Street is a pretty long "microroute". That's 4 miles (not saying it should or shouldn't be done, but microroute implies something similar to the B42, B74, B84, Bx46, etc). Those are just standard-size routes.

BTW, here's the presentation for those who are interested: http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/bus_plan/bus_plan.pdf

It'll be a testament to Byford if he manages to study the rest of the city's routes in 3 years when it took that long just for the express routes in one borough (Not even express & local combined)

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

It'll be a testament to Byford if he manages to study the rest of the city's routes in 3 years when it took that long just for the express routes in one borough (Not even express & local combined)

yeah.... but let's hope he doesn't plan on grid-ing everything to death in the outerboroughs.... This is a real concern I have whenever some outsider comes in & wants to restructure a bus network.

Although I think his focus will be more on stop consolidation & building on the "successes" of SBS....

5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Double-deckers for express routes are basically the equivalent of articulateds on local routes......

I don't particularly care for artics either, but at least they still have their place in a fixed route bus network..... Double-deckers are clumsy; you can have them.... Lol.

Look at this winner doing 40+ on one of 'em out in London.... smh...

 

[Blitz]

Random thought #1. .people don't want to go up 2 steps in the rear of low floor buses, so what would encourage them to climb nearly a whole flight in a double decker bus?

Random thought #2...will all of the express buses share the new livery eventually??

[Future ENY OP]

6 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

yeah.... but let's hope he doesn't plan on grid-ing everything to death in the outerboroughs.... This is a real concern I have whenever some outsider comes in & wants to restructure a bus network.

Although I think his focus will be more on stop consolidation & building on the "successes" of SBS....

I don't particularly care for artics either, but at least they still have their place in a fixed route bus network..... Double-deckers are clumsy; you can have them.... Lol.

Look at this winner doing 40+ on one of 'em out in London.... smh...

 

That video reminds me of riding 478. Command Bus on the Gowanus/BQE/Prospect and McDonald Ave. Circa 2002/2003. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Blitz said:

Random thought #1. .people don't want to go up 2 steps in the rear of low floor buses, so what would encourage them to climb nearly a whole flight in a double decker bus?

Random thought #2...will all of the express buses share the new livery eventually??

1. I wouldn't want to sit up there. For $6.50 to have no head room... I'm not interested in that.  I'm 6'4" and I need leg room and head room.

2.  I hope not.

[NewFlyer 230]

It’ll be interesting to see how the system gets restructured. I never understood why half the Manhattan routes traveled as far as they did. It’s not like a Q44 for example where you have people traveling between the Bronx and Jamaica. Who is their right mind is taking the M4 from Washington Heights all the way to Penn Station or the M102 from Harlem to the East Village or even East Midtown. That bus runs very slow down Lexington during the day and makes tons of stops on top of that. The M103 should be the only one making local stops on Lexington while the M101 and M102 should be LTD since they continue North past 125th. Yes you have people who can’t go down the stairs but I don’t think they are willing to spend an hour and a half on a city bus when the subway and other quicker alternatives are available. In Manhattan I feel that’s where resources are being wasted the most. Back when the M5 went all the way to South Ferry, who in their right mind thought that a 2 hour plus route was a good idea? At least with the split you can adjust the headway’s to fit demand. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

24 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

It’ll be interesting to see how the system gets restructured. I never understood why half the Manhattan routes traveled as far as they did. It’s not like a Q44 for example where you have people traveling between the Bronx and Jamaica. Who is their right mind is taking the M4 from Washington Heights all the way to Penn Station or the M102 from Harlem to the East Village or even East Midtown. That bus runs very slow down Lexington during the day and makes tons of stops on top of that. The M103 should be the only one making local stops on Lexington while the M101 and M102 should be LTD since they continue North past 125th. Yes you have people who can’t go down the stairs but I don’t think they are willing to spend an hour and a half on a city bus when the subway and other quicker alternatives are available. In Manhattan I feel that’s where resources are being wasted the most. Back when the M5 went all the way to South Ferry, who in their right mind thought that a 2 hour plus route was a good idea? At least with the split you can adjust the headway’s to fit demand. 

I've taken the M4 from the Cloisters to Penn Station years ago before congestion became so bad, and back then the trip actually wasn't that bad. The problem is congestion has added 30 - 60+ minutes to just about many long distance trips.  There are some that mobility issues, so taking the bus is better and many women prefer it over the subway.  They feel safer.  If you're not in a rush back in the day, it was nice to just take one bus and be done with it.  You could see what various neighborhoods are like on the bus, which can't be really be done on the subway if the route is mainly underground.

[Brillant93]

I have a good feeling that Manhattan and Queens are going to the most major changes to their bus routes. For one I think  they’re going to split routes more so in Manhattan because of congestion. Like crosstown routes that go from upper Manhattan to lower will be split and only a few would exist. Probably the upper half would be split going to major hubs in Manhattan for people to transfer to another bus or subways and the lower half would get degisnated bus lanes to help them get through traffic. I think bus routes like the ones that go east and west would also have bus lanes (not counting sbs routes). For queens it’s probably going to be more like a grid system or instead increase off peak service. I could be 100 percent wrong but that’s my guess. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, Brillant93 said:

I have a good feeling that Manhattan and Queens are going to the most major changes to their bus routes. For one I think  they’re going to slip routes more so in Manhattan because of congestion. Like crosstown routes that go from upper Manhattan to lower will be slip and only a few would exist. Probably the upper half would be slip going to major hubs in Manhattan for people to transfer to another bus or subways and the lower half would get degisnated bus lanes to help them get through traffic. I think bus routes like the ones that go east and west would also have bus lanes (not counting sbs routes). For queens it’s probably going to be more like a grid system or instead increase off peak service. I could be 100 percent wrong but that’s my guess. 

What in the hell do you mean by "slip"??

[Brillant93]

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What in the hell do you mean by "slip"??

I meant split but I edited it. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

I meant split but I edited it. 

They probably will try to make more routes shorter which isn't the worse thing in the world, but at the same time, a lot of these changes are forcing people off of the bus.  It's like some of those Staten Island express buses that go all the way to 11th and 57th or wherever it is that they go.  Seems like a waste of time because hardly anyone takes the bus that far west and it spends a ton of time stuck in traffic, so why bother. On the other hand, if you're forcing more people to drive or go out of their way to supposedly reduce congestion, then you aren't doing anything but making congestion worse. They really need to find a middle ground with this, and get on the DOT and the NYPD to create more bus lanes, work on signal priority and then keep those lanes clear. In my mind, those things are the biggest problems.  The bus lanes aren't as effective as they should be, particularly on non SBS lines.  You can speed up boarding all you want, but if the bus is still crawling from stop to stop, then people will still not use it.

This morning it took me about 20 minutes to go from 72nd street to 57th on the bus. I got off and jumped on the subway to go where I was going.  

[B35 via Church]

24 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You can speed up boarding all you want, but if the bus is still crawling from stop to stop, then people will still not use it.

This is actually one of the gripes some M15 riders brought up some odd years ago....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

This is actually one of the gripes some M15 riders brought up some odd years ago....

Yes, I've noticed it on weekends myself.  I don't really use the M15 much during the week, but on weekends, I've found it to be slow at times.  Just too much traffic, and the bus lanes seem useless in Midtown.  Things only get better from below say 23rd street south, otherwise forget it, and then they come all bunched up, just like the old M15 limited.

[N6 Limited]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They really need to find a middle ground with this, and get on the DOT and the NYPD to create more bus lanes, work on signal priority and then keep those lanes clear. In my mind, those things are the biggest problems.  The bus lanes aren't as effective as they should be, particularly on non SBS lines.  You can speed up boarding all you want, but if the bus is still crawling from stop to stop, then people will still not use it.

This morning it took me about 20 minutes to go from 72nd street to 57th on the bus. I got off and jumped on the subway to go where I was going.  

Yes more TSP is definitely needed, the buses get caught at traffic signals way too much, usually right as they approach the signal. Sometimes the subsequent signals turn green or remain green so the bus could make a lot of headway if it wasn't stopped. 

There are certain signal patterns where if you make the last light of a group, you can continue down the corridor pretty much uninterrupted. But B/Os purposely stop at them, and then once that signal turns green the next one turns red, (stationary buses are) frustrating. Monitor passengers the next time stuff like that happens, you can see the disappointment and frustration on their faces.

I've taken the M34SBS to the Javits Center thinking the bus lanes would help, but sometimes it's faster walking from the 8th Ave IND than to take the bus.

20 mins to go from 72nd to 57th is slower than walking speed. When I get on a bus and it crawls, there is a sense of regret, and once you're on you're trapped until the next stop (which you could walk faster to if you weren't trapped in the bus!)

 

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

This is actually one of the gripes some M15 riders brought up some odd years ago....

Yes, years ago I took a downtown M15 SBS from 125th street thinking it would be a (somewhat) quick ride to 63rd Street so I could walk to the .  😐 We slowly made our way down 2nd Ave, moping along, stopping at signals, then pulling over to stops, then stopping at the next signal. HORRIBLE.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quick thought: It would be interesting to know how much of this ridership decline happened after the 25mph Vision Zero enactment.

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

22 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Yes more TSP is definitely needed, the buses get caught at traffic signals way too much, usually right as they approach the signal. Sometimes the subsequent signals turn green or remain green so the bus could make a lot of headway if it wasn't stopped. 

There are certain signal patterns where if you make the last light of a group, you can continue down the corridor pretty much uninterrupted. But B/Os purposely stop at them, and then once that signal turns green the next one turns red, (stationary buses are) frustrating. Monitor passengers the next time stuff like that happens, you can see the disappointment and frustration on their faces.

I've taken the M34SBS to the Javits Center thinking the bus lanes would help, but sometimes it's faster walking from the 8th Ave IND than to take the bus.

20 mins to go from 72nd to 57th is slower than walking speed. When I get on a bus and it crawls, there is a sense of regret, and once you're on you're trapped until the next stop (which you could walk faster to if you weren't trapped in the bus!)

 

Yes, years ago I took a downtown M15 SBS from 125th street thinking it would be a (somewhat) quick ride to 63rd Street so I could walk to the .  😐 We slowly made our way down 2nd Ave, moping along, stopping at signals, then pulling over to stops, then stopping at the next signal. HORRIBLE.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quick thought: It would be interesting to know how much of this ridership decline happened after the 25mph Vision Zero enactment.

 

OHH YES, the M34... I thought that bus would be better after SBS... There's always a wait. Often times I just huff it, and yes, from 8th Avenue to 5th, you can actually outwalk the bus, even with this SBS nonsense. I know because I've done it myself, especially during the holidays.  Forget it.

Vision Zero has not helped at all.  It's rare now to get a driver that actually drives the damn bus. They've made B/Os afraid to drive, and it doesn't help that so many people have their heads buried in their cell phones when walking, so people just cross the street regardless of the light situation.  Then when you do get a B/O that drives, you get stuck in traffic, which was the case last night. I give myself two hours now to get in if I take the express bus.  That's usually enough time for me to allow for delays and stop at a café before I head to my office, but if I leave any later, forget it.  An hour and a half no longer does it.  I have to get off and get the subway.  I used to be able to get in with the BxM2 in under an hour with a good driver. Now, I need over an hour and a half if I want to go via West Midtown.  Then the drivers look at you as if you have all damn day to get to work. Dude, how much time do you need to make it?  Just ridiculous. I'm also very irritated that the  has extended run times only to have drivers sit back and still take longer and longer with this leaving the terminal late BS because they're afraid of being written up.  

The main reason bus ridership has declined is because B/Os act as if they don't know what a schedule is.  It's just so frustrating.  If you're leaving the terminal 15 minutes late, at least make an effort to get back on schedule.  There's none made and before you know it, you've been on the bus for an hour and 30 minutes for what should be a 40 - 50 minute commute tops.

One of the things that this Bus Action Plan doesn't include is how is the  going to hold drivers more accountable to meeting these schedules... That's the one thing that the advocates should be mentioning too. I can't ever recall it being this bad.  Even when the bus is in time, it's rare that you get to your destination on-time, let alone early.

[Deucey]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They really need to find a middle ground with this, and get on the DOT and the NYPD to create more bus lanes, work on signal priority and then keep those lanes clear. In my mind, those things are the biggest problems.  The bus lanes aren't as effective as they should be, particularly on non SBS lines.  You can speed up boarding all you want, but if the bus is still crawling from stop to stop, then people will still not use it.

I'm of the mindset that there needs to be signal rationalization in Manhattan especially, and age parts of Bx and Bk.

By that, I mean there probably needs to be some signal removals on thoroughfares to speed up traffic and reduce congestion. You can pretty much walk up any block and at every intersection there's a damn signal - meaning as soon as a vehicle starts going, it can encounter a red light and end up stopping: thus wasting fuel and time.

Of course, there's the pedestrian factor - in that NYers aren't going to walk an extra block south or east to cross the street. But in Las Vegas, they built pedestrian overpasses at busy intersections on the Strip (or as we call it, Las Vegas Boulevard) so traffic can flow without pedestrians messing it up, along with jersey barriers preventing people from jaywalking or getting into the intersection.

And there are elevators at every corner to aid people with mobility issues.

NY - we're used to walking underground, so build some underpasses with CCTV - since NYPD records almost every time we scratch our asses or pick our noses whenever we're outside, it's not that difficult. And we can either eliminate parking (and create proper bike lanes or bus lanes) on some of these streets.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I'm of the mindset that there needs to be signal rationalization in Manhattan especially, and age parts of Bx and Bk.

By that, I mean there probably needs to be some signal removals on thoroughfares to speed up traffic and reduce congestion. You can pretty much walk up any block and at every intersection there's a damn signal - meaning as soon as a vehicle starts going, it can encounter a red light and end up stopping: thus wasting fuel and time.

Of course, there's the pedestrian factor - in that NYers aren't going to walk an extra block south or east to cross the street. But in Las Vegas, they built pedestrian overpasses at busy intersections on the Strip (or as we call it, Las Vegas Boulevard) so traffic can flow without pedestrians messing it up, along with jersey barriers preventing people from jaywalking or getting into the intersection.

And there are elevators at every corner to aid people with mobility issues.

NY - we're used to walking underground, so build some underpasses with CCTV - since NYPD records almost every time we scratch our asses or pick our noses whenever we're outside, it's not that difficult. And we can either eliminate parking (and create proper bike lanes or bus lanes) on some of these streets.

Well here's the thing that I doubt most people realize. When Vision Zero was implemented, they changed ALL of the traffic lights on purpose so that very few of them actually sync now. Along 5th Avenue from the 90s south, you could fly down 5th because the lights were all green, especially late nights.  After Vision Zero, you go one block, then BOOM, red light.  Two blocks, BOOM red light.  Or you get a green light, but it takes three green lights to go one block because Vision Zero creates additional congestion because the lights aren't synced the way they used to be. By not syncing the lights, you pretty ensure that people can't gather any real speed.  When Vision Zero first came in, God, trips took forever.  B/Os threw a fit out of Yonkers and all the  did was increase the run times. How about you consult with the DOT as they claim they're going to do now about signal priority and more bus lanes?  

[Deucey]

14 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

How about you consult with the DOT as they claim they're going to do now about signal priority and more bus lanes?  

Because there's more money in #startuplife than with a city job. 

And they want that fancy data science degree instead of my International Relations degree and years of navigating bureaucratese to make sales.

Although I now wonder what that woman that got the masters in Geography and kvetched in The Guardian some years ago is doing since now she could use that overpriced nonsense degree to work...