Plan To Restructure The NYC Bus System

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, RR503 said:

The commute data is taken every year. LEHD — look it up. Similarly, the Census releases American Community Surveys every year, which are used by agencies across the country and are regarded as being reasonably accurate. 

Look, I absolutely understand that the MTA doesn’t have a good track record with this sort of thing. It’s an opaque agency steeped in its own culture to the point of total arrogance. But I think all of this is changing. Politics are forcing those in the agency to re-examine their practices, and are shaking up upper management. And sure, they may do dumb things like that Woodhaven SBS metric, but upper management these days is holding folks much more accountable than before, so I hold out hope for some change. Data driven route planning techniques have been used with much success elsewhere in the country, and given the agency’s newfound ability to look outwards, those same processes may be lifted to New York. 

I also think that this whole issue is a bit of a catch-22. Our current bus network is woefully out of date, and simply cannot serve corridors of high demand in some meaningful way, losing it ridership. If the agency remains timid, we’ll hemorrhage ridership through obsoletion. If we change, we run the risk of making the bus network unusable, but at least there’s a chance of an increase in utility. In light of that, I really think the MTA needs to pursue (responsibly, and transparently) the second option. 

I agree with you that the bus system is woefully out of date and the agency needs to be bold. They cannot continue to take three years to study a single minor route change and that changes need to be data driven. But the data has to be accurate, complete, and subject to public scrutiny. 

You say the agency is changing. So why is it continuing to lie to the public? 

MTA spokesman Shams Tarek last week told the Queens Chronicle, “The Comptroller’s report affirms that SBS runs much faster than local routes and is a vast improvement over regular bus service, and that riders like it.” 

The Comptroller’s report actually said: “Over the last decade, bus ridership in New York City has nosedived and many local routes have become less reliable, slower, and increasingly outdated. While Select Bus routes have performed slightly better, there is ample room for improvement.” It further states: “Select Bus routes travel only slightly faster than the average local route (8.9 mph versus 7.4 mph) and are identical in their on-time performance – a meager 62 percent.”

“Slightly better” and “slightly faster” is not “vast improvement” and “much faster”.

This is typical of the lies made by the MTA and DOT to gain acceptance of SBS from the public and Byford has to put a stop to this. Otherwise, no one will have any faith in anything the MTA says. 

[checkmatechamp13]

On 4/26/2018 at 12:20 AM, N6 Limited said:

With the screens on the bus, I wonder how they're going to take subway connections into account and if they'll display/announce SubwayTime times for connecting routes.

It would be cool (especially during off-peak times) if you're on a bus and you need to make a connection, and say both buses are at the intersection (but yours has the red signal)you can press a "connection request" button on the BusTime app and it will alert the B/O "Connection Requested" and the B/O allows u to make the connection. 

Or as I've mentioned before, a feature like that when on the subway approaching Jamaica and the  are delayed due to trackwork, your bus is about to leave and is on 1 hr headway, if you could make a connection request to have some satisfactory ending to an already long trip. 

Or because of similar reasons the Bus Operator can see on their screen that there are 3   and waits a few more mins

It needs to be done because the bus routes are old, but I agree. I wonder how Queens would work. Riders are trying to get to Jamaica, Flushing, Jackson Heights, etc, but they also need more direct routes to get between these areas without tons of backtracking. 

What's with the B20 and the B83's routing anyway? Why doesn't one of them go straight down Pennsylvania Ave? Was it because the B20 is old and existed before Spring Creek was built and they just created the B83 to serve it?

2

I agree with the idea, but I think it should be an official policy (something like "If the train is within 5 minutes, the B/O must wait"). There are some B/Os out there who have the attitude of "Let me get out before the crowd of people comes running up to the bus" which obviously isn't the right attitude to have on an overnight run.

And from what @BrooklynBus has mentioned, the B83 was originally supposed to run straight down Pennsylvania Avenue, but the community wanted some type of north-south service between Pennsylvania & the B13 corridor (Euclid/Fountain/Crescent), so that was the compromise that was made. Personally, now that the B84 is in the picture, I think the whole B20/83/84 network needs to be revamped.

[N6 Limited]

On 4/27/2018 at 4:27 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

I agree with the idea, but I think it should be an official policy (something like "If the train is within 5 minutes, the B/O must wait"). There are some B/Os out there who have the attitude of "Let me get out before the crowd of people comes running up to the bus" which obviously isn't the right attitude to have on an overnight run.

And from what @BrooklynBus has mentioned, the B83 was originally supposed to run straight down Pennsylvania Avenue, but the community wanted some type of north-south service between Pennsylvania & the B13 corridor (Euclid/Fountain/Crescent), so that was the compromise that was made. Personally, now that the B84 is in the picture, I think the whole B20/83/84 network needs to be revamped.

They need some policy that supports intermodal connections, especially during times of low frequency and at places of high transfers.

 

 

[dkupf]

On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 4:27 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

I agree with the idea, but I think it should be an official policy (something like "If the train is within 5 minutes, the B/O must wait"). There are some B/Os out there who have the attitude of "Let me get out before the crowd of people comes running up to the bus" which obviously isn't the right attitude to have on an overnight run.

And from what @BrooklynBus has mentioned, the B83 was originally supposed to run straight down Pennsylvania Avenue, but the community wanted some type of north-south service between Pennsylvania & the B13 corridor (Euclid/Fountain/Crescent), so that was the compromise that was made. Personally, now that the B84 is in the picture, I think the whole B20/83/84 network needs to be revamped.

According to Google Maps, at the western side of the Gateway Mall, Gateway Drive goes as far north as Vandalia Avenue, and Vandalia Avenue turns north to Flatlands Avenue.

Here's what I intend to give to the service planners at the next public hearing.  (I welcome critique to further refine this open letter.)

=====================================================================================================================================

Dear MTA New York City Transit:

            I think that the current patchwork of bus service in the Brooklyn neighborhoods of Spring Creek and East New York is cumbersome, discouraging ridership.  Bus routes should be simple and easy to understand, not compete with each other.  I think that there is a viable alternative that would make bus service in eastern Brooklyn more attractive and productive:

·         B20 – Reroute via Flatlands Ave and the current B13 routing, instead of Wortman Ave and Ashford St, looping via Linden Blvd, Eldert Ln, and Loring Ave;

·         Q8 – Reroute southbound via Fountain Avenue, instead of Euclid Ave, from Pitkin Ave to Linden Blvd;

·         B84 – Absorbed by the rerouted B20 and extended Q7;

·         Q7 – Extend via the rerouted Q8, then via Dumont Ave, New Lots Ave, Ashford St, Cozine Ave, Elton St, Flatlands Ave, Vandalia Ave, and Gateway Dr to the Brooklyn Developmental Center (operate route all times).  Possible new part-time branch east of 150 St via Rockaway Blvd, North/South Conduit Aves, and the current Q85 routing to the Green Acres Mall; and

·         B15 – Reroute via Linden Blvd and Ashford St instead of Fountain Ave and Dumont Ave (partially replaced by the extended Q7).

            The B84 currently operates via Jerome St, instead of Elton St, because this is the only route that operates via Flatlands Ave in this area.  As that the B20 would be rerouted, that would no longer be the case.

            The B20 reroute would also fill a service gap in East New York and Spring Creek, and Fresh Pond-bound trips would no longer have to make a left turn from a major arterial.  Currently, the B20, for this segment, has low ridership, because it travels away from the nearby New Lots Ave station, and makes a left turn from Linden Blvd.  It’s logical to infer that traffic, in general, has to wait a while before a left turn could be done, a factor that would increase a bus route, and current rider, travel times. As that the B20 would be rerouted to loop via Linden Blvd making only right turns, left turns would no longer occur for this segment.  This would increase the B20’s overall attractiveness in these neighborhoods.

            Bedford-Stuyvesant-bound B15 trips would, instead, make its right turn not at Fountain Ave but at Ashford St.  Currently, the B15 makes a left turn from Fountain Ave in the JFK Airport-bound direction.  Fountain Ave, obviously, has much less traffic than Linden Blvd; a left turn is relatively not as problematic. As that Ashford St is similar to Fountain Ave by design, the B15 wouldn’t need to, initially, change its travel time.  As that the B15 currently travels much faster in this area than the B20 AND serves the nearby New Lots Ave Station, the riders lost to the B15 should be offset by a significant boost in ridership along the new segment.  This means that the B15 should, initially, also maintain its current frequencies.

            As that the extended Q7 would replace the B15 via Dumont Ave/New Lots Ave between Fountain Ave and Ashford St, serve the New Lots Ave station, replace the B84, serve the Gateway Mall more directly than the Q8, and also serve the Brooklyn Developmental Center, the above changes would increase the Q7’s overall attractiveness.  A significant amount of additional daily Q7 trips between Euclid Ave & Pitkin Ave and the Brooklyn Developmental Center would have to be added.  And, add Hawk service, something that Spring Creek severely needs.

            But if the Q7 would also have a branch, in Queens, to operate to the Green Acres Mall, it would fill a service gap in southeastern Queens, make the additional new Q7 trips more productive during most hours, have higher seat turnover, and further increase the Q7’s overall attractiveness.  In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Q7, after both changes are implemented, would immediately double daily, in ridership, at most times.  Based on this, there should probably be no short trips for the Q7 during most hours; in Queens, alternate buses would serve each branch.  The service span for the Green Acres Mall branch would be when the Q7 trunk-line frequency is every 15 minutes or less.  The Q7 Green Acres branch was originally proposed in the NYCDOT Ridership Survey & Route Analysis.

            As that the Q8 doesn’t serve the Gateway Mall’s western end as directly as the extended Q7 would, the Q8 would, initially, lose some riders.  Q8 service would have to be reduced in the short term.  But, after analyzing the pros and cons of the changes, the service planners and schedulers would be able project the reduction in ridership, and, initially, adjust the Q7 and Q8 schedules accordingly.  I have complete confidence that after the initial changes, and current ridership patterns solidify, the service schedulers would, again, adjust services accordingly.

            In order to get a full picture of all of the positive and negative impacts of these changes, I ask that your service planners to do a comparative evaluation and community benefit analysis.  Such an evaluation and analysis includes projected operating costs, but also projected Hawk (daily 1AM-5AM) ridership, non-Hawk ridership, and revenue.  It also includes the amount of people who would see their travel time increase and decrease, walking distance increase and decrease, and transfers added and negated.

            In other words, the planning process could be more holistic than myopic, more proactive than reactive, by using tried-and-true methodologies plus a little bit of common sense.

            Please analyze this package of service proposals objectively, and with an open mind.  Thank you.

========================================================================================================================================

Yes, the Q7 would be an extremely long route should a new Green Acres Mall branch be implemented.  But, bus service in the Spring Creek area would have to serve both the New Lots Ave Station AND continue to serve most of the Fountain Avenue corridor.  And, direct bus service between the New Lots Avenue Station and the Brooklyn Developmental Center also has to be maintained.

So what do you think?  I'm all ears.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 4/27/2018 at 2:01 PM, RR503 said:

The commute data is taken every year. LEHD — look it up. Similarly, the Census releases American Community Surveys every year, which are used by agencies across the country and are regarded as being reasonably accurate. 

Look, I absolutely understand that the MTA doesn’t have a good track record with this sort of thing. It’s an opaque agency steeped in its own culture to the point of total arrogance. But I think all of this is changing. Politics are forcing those in the agency to re-examine their practices, and are shaking up upper management. And sure, they may do dumb things like that Woodhaven SBS metric, but upper management these days is holding folks much more accountable than before, so I hold out hope for some change. Data driven route planning techniques have been used with much success elsewhere in the country, and given the agency’s newfound ability to look outwards, those same processes may be lifted to New York. 

I also think that this whole issue is a bit of a catch-22. Our current bus network is woefully out of date, and simply cannot serve corridors of high demand in some meaningful way, losing it ridership. If the agency remains timid, we’ll hemorrhage ridership through obsoletion. If we change, we run the risk of making the bus network unusable, but at least there’s a chance of an increase in utility. In light of that, I really think the MTA needs to pursue (responsibly, and transparently) the second option. 

There's no catch 22 in my mind.  Keep the routes that are working and see how they can be improved.  I don't think we need a full revamp of the entire network because some lines don't have that many stops.  The issue is congestion, and in that area, the  has been VERY timid.  The last board meeting was the first time that I've heard board members be frank about what is killing bus service.  Double and triple parked cars, obstructing and blocking bus lanes, no enforcement, minimal signal priority improvements (though the agency has been talking about it for YEARS).  Why are these things taking so long?

Board member Vanterpool and Moerdler have been the most outspoken about things that are common sense that the  is just now considering.  They're behind and that's the problem.  They're behind in terms of modernization and everything else, and on top of that they've done nothing really to get buses on schedule despite numerous audits that have pointed to how few buses come on-time.  In fact they're tried to do away with schedules by adding countdown clocks.  That works when you have high frequency routes. It doesn't work on low frequency routes.  You need buses on-time in those cases, and when the buses don't run frequently, people simply don't use them because of the long waits. If our buses were prompt, low frequencies in some cases wouldn't as big of a problem, but that's not the case.

It's also the reason why subway ridership is declining.  Nothing is running on-time anymore and when people don't have a clue of when they can expect to get anywhere, they lose confidence in the system.  That is extremely important.  The  has to earn back the trust of riders, and that is not something that will be easy or quick to do.  There's also the never ending fare increases. At some point when you compare the cost and the alternatives and the unreliability of service across the system, it simply doesn't make sense for a lot of people to keep using the system.  That's another big problem.  We need the  to get it together because with population growth here, having the bus and subway system hemorrhaging riders will lead to even worse gridlock.

[FLX9304]

On 4/24/2018 at 8:53 PM, BrooklynBus said:

Routes should not be split without some overlap. 

They have been doing that. What else is new? Take the M10/M20 split off in 1999. The M10 was formally an up & down the island, with 4 different terminals. But since 1990, they cut the two southern terminals, with the exception of the Abington Sq (currently the M11, M12 & M14D). when they cut the M10 to 31st St & 8th Ave that year, they did away the Abington Sq terminal. 

Last year they did the same thing to the M5 and split it with the M55

[FLX9304]

18 hours ago, dkupf said:

According to Google Maps, at the western side of the Gateway Mall, Gateway Drive goes as far north as Vandalia Avenue, and Vandalia Avenue turns north to Flatlands Avenue.

Here's what I intend to give to the service planners at the next public hearing.  (I welcome critique to further refine this open letter.)

=====================================================================================================================================

Dear MTA New York City Transit:

            I think that the current patchwork of bus service in the Brooklyn neighborhoods of Spring Creek and East New York is cumbersome, discouraging ridership.  Bus routes should be simple and easy to understand, not compete with each other.  I think that there is a viable alternative that would make bus service in eastern Brooklyn more attractive and productive:

·         B20 – Reroute via Flatlands Ave and the current B13 routing, instead of Wortman Ave and Ashford St, looping via Linden Blvd, Eldert Ln, and Loring Ave;

·         Q8 – Reroute southbound via Fountain Avenue, instead of Euclid Ave, from Pitkin Ave to Linden Blvd;

·         B84 – Absorbed by the rerouted B20 and extended Q7;

·         Q7 – Extend via the rerouted Q8, then via Dumont Ave, New Lots Ave, Ashford St, Cozine Ave, Elton St, Flatlands Ave, Vandalia Ave, and Gateway Dr to the Brooklyn Developmental Center (operate route all times).  Possible new part-time branch east of 150 St via Rockaway Blvd, North/South Conduit Aves, and the current Q85 routing to the Green Acres Mall; and

·         B15 – Reroute via Linden Blvd and Ashford St instead of Fountain Ave and Dumont Ave (partially replaced by the extended Q7).

            The B84 currently operates via Jerome St, instead of Elton St, because this is the only route that operates via Flatlands Ave in this area.  As that the B20 would be rerouted, that would no longer be the case.

            The B20 reroute would also fill a service gap in East New York and Spring Creek, and Fresh Pond-bound trips would no longer have to make a left turn from a major arterial.  Currently, the B20, for this segment, has low ridership, because it travels away from the nearby New Lots Ave station, and makes a left turn from Linden Blvd.  It’s logical to infer that traffic, in general, has to wait a while before a left turn could be done, a factor that would increase a bus route, and current rider, travel times. As that the B20 would be rerouted to loop via Linden Blvd making only right turns, left turns would no longer occur for this segment.  This would increase the B20’s overall attractiveness in these neighborhoods.

            Bedford-Stuyvesant-bound B15 trips would, instead, make its right turn not at Fountain Ave but at Ashford St.  Currently, the B15 makes a left turn from Fountain Ave in the JFK Airport-bound direction.  Fountain Ave, obviously, has much less traffic than Linden Blvd; a left turn is relatively not as problematic. As that Ashford St is similar to Fountain Ave by design, the B15 wouldn’t need to, initially, change its travel time.  As that the B15 currently travels much faster in this area than the B20 AND serves the nearby New Lots Ave Station, the riders lost to the B15 should be offset by a significant boost in ridership along the new segment.  This means that the B15 should, initially, also maintain its current frequencies.

            As that the extended Q7 would replace the B15 via Dumont Ave/New Lots Ave between Fountain Ave and Ashford St, serve the New Lots Ave station, replace the B84, serve the Gateway Mall more directly than the Q8, and also serve the Brooklyn Developmental Center, the above changes would increase the Q7’s overall attractiveness.  A significant amount of additional daily Q7 trips between Euclid Ave & Pitkin Ave and the Brooklyn Developmental Center would have to be added.  And, add Hawk service, something that Spring Creek severely needs.

            But if the Q7 would also have a branch, in Queens, to operate to the Green Acres Mall, it would fill a service gap in southeastern Queens, make the additional new Q7 trips more productive during most hours, have higher seat turnover, and further increase the Q7’s overall attractiveness.  In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Q7, after both changes are implemented, would immediately double daily, in ridership, at most times.  Based on this, there should probably be no short trips for the Q7 during most hours; in Queens, alternate buses would serve each branch.  The service span for the Green Acres Mall branch would be when the Q7 trunk-line frequency is every 15 minutes or less.  The Q7 Green Acres branch was originally proposed in the NYCDOT Ridership Survey & Route Analysis.

            As that the Q8 doesn’t serve the Gateway Mall’s western end as directly as the extended Q7 would, the Q8 would, initially, lose some riders.  Q8 service would have to be reduced in the short term.  But, after analyzing the pros and cons of the changes, the service planners and schedulers would be able project the reduction in ridership, and, initially, adjust the Q7 and Q8 schedules accordingly.  I have complete confidence that after the initial changes, and current ridership patterns solidify, the service schedulers would, again, adjust services accordingly.

            In order to get a full picture of all of the positive and negative impacts of these changes, I ask that your service planners to do a comparative evaluation and community benefit analysis.  Such an evaluation and analysis includes projected operating costs, but also projected Hawk (daily 1AM-5AM) ridership, non-Hawk ridership, and revenue.  It also includes the amount of people who would see their travel time increase and decrease, walking distance increase and decrease, and transfers added and negated.

            In other words, the planning process could be more holistic than myopic, more proactive than reactive, by using tried-and-true methodologies plus a little bit of common sense.

            Please analyze this package of service proposals objectively, and with an open mind.  Thank you.

========================================================================================================================================

Yes, the Q7 would be an extremely long route should a new Green Acres Mall branch be implemented.  But, bus service in the Spring Creek area would have to serve both the New Lots Ave Station AND continue to serve most of the Fountain Avenue corridor.  And, direct bus service between the New Lots Avenue Station and the Brooklyn Developmental Center also has to be maintained.

So what do you think?  I'm all ears.

Leave the B84 alone. It was there for a reason. The Q7 is JFK, and trust me when I say this: They always have problems with their bus drivers when it comes to assigning routes out of that depot. For two years, living in Ozone Park was an ass and a half. Waiting for the Q7/8 is no joke. Keep the Q7/8 before the Brooklyn/Queens line, and we'll leave it like that. 

[Brillant93]

25 minutes ago, FLX9304 said:

They have been doing that. What else is new? Take the M10/M20 split off in 1999. The M10 was formally an up & down the island, with 4 different terminals. But since 1990, they cut the two southern terminals, with the exception of the Abington Sq (currently the M11, M12 & M14D). when they cut the M10 to 31st St & 8th Ave that year, they did away the Abington Sq terminal. 

Last year they did the same thing to the M5 and split it with the M55

I think for manhattan they might slip routes that all go to uptown and downtown and maybe have one route that does. Concentrating on routes more so where people transfer to and from subways I believe is where they might focus on restructuring. I think for the M5 and M55 travel time was a cause for the slip but the number one culprit is congestion and lack of enforced bus lanes is the second. 

[FLX9304]

52 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

I think for manhattan they might slip routes that all go to uptown and downtown and maybe have one route that does. Concentrating on routes more so where people transfer to and from subways I believe is where they might focus on restructuring. I think for the M5 and M55 travel time was a cause for the slip but the number one culprit is congestion and lack of enforced bus lanes is the second. 

There are two routes doing almost that's left: M3 & the M101. both go to East Village, by way of 5th & Lexington Ave respectively, but for the 101, it did until 1995, went from uptown to downtown, until both the 101 & 102 was shortened to East Village for the 103 (the 103 before was a 59th Street crosstown route discontinued in 1989. the old M58 does not resembled the 103 in any form). 

[dkupf]

5 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

Leave the B84 alone. It was there for a reason. The Q7 is JFK, and trust me when I say this: They always have problems with their bus drivers when it comes to assigning routes out of that depot. For two years, living in Ozone Park was an ass and a half. Waiting for the Q7/8 is no joke. Keep the Q7/8 before the Brooklyn/Queens line, and we'll leave it like that. 

I testified at the B84 public hearing that the Q7 should have been extended instead of implementing a short, stand-alone bus route.  This extension would have been less expensive, made Queens more accessible for eastern Brooklyn riders, and significantly increase ridership and revenue more effectively.  As I had stated above, bus routes should be simple and easy to understand, not compete with each other.

And, as stated above, a Q7 Green Acres Mall service was originally proposed by NYCDOT as a part-time branch.  Besides, if the Q7 is extended into Spring Creek, as I propose, the route should have sufficient ridership between there and JFK, in the opinions of the service planners, to justify 24-hour service.

[mrbrklyn]

On 4/23/2018 at 9:21 AM, Deucey said:

Never understood why buses at the top of Manhattan needed to go to the bottom of the island when there's trains, but that's just me...

it is not just you.

[mrbrklyn]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:08 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

 The issue is congestion, and in that area, the  has been VERY timid. 

It is not up the MTA to fix a congestion problem.  They are not the elected government.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

17 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

It is not up the MTA to fix a congestion problem.  They are not the elected government.

You're cute. They're a government agency. At the very least they can work with the DOT to help enforce bus lanes and use signal priority to speed up buses.

[Brillant93]

4 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You're cute. They're a government agency. At the very least they can work with the DOT to help enforce bus lanes and use signal priority to speed up buses.

Anti transit people are funny tbh. They never like to address how bad congestion is. If a city wants to invest in better public transit to help get people off the road and to where they need to go the anti transit nimbys go up in arms. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Anti transit people are funny tbh. They never like to address how bad congestion is. If a city wants to invest in better public transit to help get people off the road and to where they need to go the anti transit nimbys go up in arms. 

They're also the first ones to bitch about how long they sit in traffic but are against any plans to mitigate it.

[Deucey]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They're also the first ones to bitch about how long they sit in traffic but are against any plans to mitigate it.

As shown by Nashville voters...

[checkmatechamp13]

On 5/2/2018 at 9:49 PM, dkupf said:

Yes, the Q7 would be an extremely long route should a new Green Acres Mall branch be implemented.  But, bus service in the Spring Creek area would have to serve both the New Lots Ave Station AND continue to serve most of the Fountain Avenue corridor.  And, direct bus service between the New Lots Avenue Station and the Brooklyn Developmental Center also has to be maintained.

So what do you think?  I'm all ears.

 

Says who? Are the patients and workers at the Brooklyn Development Center incapable of using any other station on the line besides New Lots Avenue? They can't use Van Siclen Avenue or Pennsylvania Avenue?

And Starrett City residents heading over to the or the Broadway Junction subway lines are supposed to continue taking a circuitous route down Van Siclen Avenue instead of a straight route down Pennsylvania Avenue? (Even if somebody got off at Van Siclen/New Lots and walked a block up for the (3), that's still backtracking one subway stop.

And sure, the Q7 might gain ridership, but as far as overnight service goes, that means you would need 2 buses instead of 1. And considering that malls generally don't open overnight (and even if they're open, the overnight workers generally start their shifts before bus service finishes for the night, and finish after bus service has already started), that means you would essentially have two groups: Those riding from Euclid Avenue or New Lots Avenue into the residential sections of ENY, and those heading east from Rockaway Blvd.

In any case, I think the B83 should be routed straight down Pennsylvania Avenue, and the B20 should take over the Van Siclen portion of the B83 and continue east on Flatlands, Elton, and Vandalia to end at the Brooklyn Development Center.

The B84 can be folded into the Pennsylvania Avenue services, and run from Broadway Junction to the Lefferts Blvd AirTrain station to supplement the B15 (so it would run via Pennsylvania, New Lots, Ashford, and Linden)

The numbering of the routes on Pennsylvania Avenue doesn't matter (so with my plan, you'd have a route Broadway Junction to Gateway via Pennsylvania, a route from Broadway Junction to the Brooklyn Development Center via Van Siclen, and a route from Broadway Junction to JFK via Ashford/Linden. Whichever routes they decide to call B20/83/84 are immaterial. And the B20's Bushwick/Ridgewood portion can be attached to either the Van Siclen route or the Pennsylvania Avenue route, instead of the longer JFK route)

[Gotham Bus Co.]

6 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The numbering of the routes on Pennsylvania Avenue doesn't matter (so with my plan, you'd have a route Broadway Junction to Gateway via Pennsylvania, a route from Broadway Junction to the Brooklyn Development Center via Van Siclen, and a route from Broadway Junction to JFK via Ashford/Linden. Whichever routes they decide to call B20/83/84 are immaterial. And the B20's Bushwick/Ridgewood portion can be attached to either the Van Siclen route or the Pennsylvania Avenue route, instead of the longer JFK route)

 

At least one "traditionalist" will argue that since there is no current bus route operating the full length of Pennsylvania Avenue, there must never be a bus route running the full length of Pennsylvania Avenue.

[Future ENY OP]

17 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

At least one "traditionalist" will argue that since there is no current bus route operating the full length of Pennsylvania Avenue, there must never be a bus route running the full length of Pennsylvania Avenue.

There needs to be a full length bus route to run on Penn Avenue.. Point. Blank. Period. If not 1 route, 2 routes.

 

Responses in red:

On 5/5/2018 at 2:05 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

In any case, I think the B83 should be routed straight down Pennsylvania Avenue, and the B20 should take over the Van Siclen portion of the B83 and continue east on Flatlands, Elton, and Vandalia to end at the Brooklyn Development Center. (In full agreement to have the B83 head straight down Penn Ave. However, not in favor of having the B20 ending at BDC..

The B84 can be folded into the Pennsylvania Avenue services, and run from Broadway Junction to the Lefferts Blvd AirTrain station to supplement the B15 (so it would run via Pennsylvania, New Lots, Ashford, and Linden) (I'd have the B20 run in it's place instead, at least to continue keeping the short turn at East New York-Spring Creek Mail Facility) Also, does B84 loses Flatlands Avenue service in this plan?

The numbering of the routes on Pennsylvania Avenue doesn't matter (so with my plan, you'd have a route Broadway Junction to Gateway via Pennsylvania, a route from Broadway Junction to the Brooklyn Development Center via Van Siclen, and a route from Broadway Junction to JFK via Ashford/Linden. Whichever routes they decide to call B20/83/84 are immaterial. And the B20's Bushwick/Ridgewood portion can be attached to either the Van Siclen route or the Pennsylvania Avenue route, instead of the longer JFK route)  Does Wortman Avenue loses bus service as a result? That side of East New York desperately needs bus service. I'd would create a new route possibly from Broadway-East New York to the Mail Facility via Penn, via Wortman to the facility w/o the utilization of Linden Blvd.

I personally think there should be at least 5 routes to cover East New York giving plenty of options

Route (A): Broadway-East New York to Starrett City-Seaview Ave via Penn (B83)

Route (B): Bushwick/Ridgewood to BDC via Penn, via Flatlands ** New route: (B85)

Route (C): Broadway-East New York to East New York Mail Facility via Penn, via Wortman (B84)

Route (D): Broadway-East New York to JFK Air Train via Penn, via Ashford, via Linden. (B20) ** Short turns at the Mail facility**

Route (E): Brooklyn Development Center to New Lots-Ashford via Ashford. ** New route (B86)

[Gotham Bus Co.]

On 5/5/2018 at 9:44 AM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They're also the first ones to bitch about how long they sit in traffic but are against any plans to mitigate it.

The first rule of politics is to never allow problems to be solved. After a problem is solved, it's no longer there for politicians to complain about or campaign about.

[Deucey]

5 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

The first rule of politics is to never allow problems to be solved. After a problem is solved, it's no longer there for politicians to complain about or campaign about.

First rule of politics is to get re-elected.

Second rule is people dislike the status quo but hate change.

Third rule is any change you make, make it minimal so you don’t fail at the first rule.

[Dan1]

The SI express bus study is complete and is at the Public Hearing stage. I think the express buses are more important to Staten Islander than the local buses. The Staten Island local bus network will always be constrained by SI's spread out population, the lack of a borough-wide street grid, and limited arterial road network. The original SI Bus Study goes back to 2016 so I'm assuming that at least a start was made on a study of the local routes. Nothing official on what's being considered but speculation is that that MTA was looking at employment/activity centers like the SI mall, the planned malls on the south shore, the colleges, and the hospitals. But beyond that it's anybody's guess as to what Byford's team will do on S.I.

[checkmatechamp13]

1 hour ago, Dan1 said:

The SI express bus study is complete and is at the Public Hearing stage. I think the express buses are more important to Staten Islander than the local buses. The Staten Island local bus network will always be constrained by SI's spread out population, the lack of a borough-wide street grid, and limited arterial road network. The original SI Bus Study goes back to 2016 so I'm assuming that at least a start was made on a study of the local routes. Nothing official on what's being considered but speculation is that that MTA was looking at employment/activity centers like the SI mall, the planned malls on the south shore, the colleges, and the hospitals. But beyond that it's anybody's guess as to what Byford's team will do on S.I.

So the express buses get about 35,000 passengers per day while the local buses get 100,000, but the express buses are more important?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Dan1 said:

The SI express bus study is complete and is at the Public Hearing stage. I think the express buses are more important to Staten Islander than the local buses. The Staten Island local bus network will always be constrained by SI's spread out population, the lack of a borough-wide street grid, and limited arterial road network. The original SI Bus Study goes back to 2016 so I'm assuming that at least a start was made on a study of the local routes. Nothing official on what's being considered but speculation is that that MTA was looking at employment/activity centers like the SI mall, the planned malls on the south shore, the colleges, and the hospitals. But beyond that it's anybody's guess as to what Byford's team will do on S.I.

Whenever express buses are studied Citywide, I will definitely be attending some meetings.  So far I am not a fan of this set up, but I first need to see what the frequencies will look, the spans and in particular late night/morning and weekend service (off-peak). I am sick and tired of getting hourly service parts of the day on Saturdays and all day Sunday. In 2018, most express bus routes need to start running every 30 minutes because an hour between buses is just too long especially when they are late most of the time by 20 minutes or more.  

2 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

So the express buses get about 35,000 passengers per day while the local buses get 100,000, but the express buses are more important?

I agree with Dan.  The express buses are more important on Staten Island.  The local buses are generally geared towards the ferry and maybe a few other points.  Outside of that the local bus network is pretty pathetic.  There are times when I've used the express bus within Staten Island to get from one place to another because it was faster than the local bus, and many people do this on Staten Island.  The only people that regularly use the local buses on the island are those that are poor or those that travel a lot to and from the ferry, but for doing trips to the supermarket, forget it.  That's why I'd just use car service for those things.  Even when I had to ship things, I'd get car service to a Staples, drop off the package and then take the express bus into the City.  It was much faster than waiting for a local bus.

[NY1635]

10 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

So the express buses get about 35,000 passengers per day while the local buses get 100,000, but the express buses are more important?

The SI local buses getting 100,000 puts it roughly equal to Westchester Bee Line and 20,000-25,000 above NICE in terms of ridership.