If certain lines were to be closed for a whole week, would that speed up repair process?

[itmaybeokay]

9 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

As many are going to Columbia, they can take the M104 from 96th Street, they can walk through Morningside Park from 116th IND, they can walk from 125th St IND, they can use Citibike from a nearby open station. The MTA can also do this one week shut down, during the summer, spring break, winter break. It's one week, they'd get over it.

Hey I love the walk through morningside park during the warmer months, but thats a lot of stairs - so, nuts to the less-than-able-bodied? And all people who live north of 116 commuting downtown? I really don't think existing local bus service is a sufficient replacement. 

Yeah - I'd be fine, I'd live through this. (I'd also probably just take that week off) but my point is just, a week-long shutdown would have a negative effect on a lot of people. If it could really get critical repairs done faster, then maybe it's worthwhile. But i'm very skeptical. 

[N6 Limited]

8 minutes ago, itmaybeokay said:

Hey I love the walk through morningside park during the warmer months, but thats a lot of stairs - so, nuts to the less-than-able-bodied? And all people who live north of 116 commuting downtown? I really don't think existing local bus service is a sufficient replacement. 

Yeah - I'd be fine, I'd live through this. (I'd also probably just take that week off) but my point is just, a week-long shutdown would have a negative effect on a lot of people. If it could really get critical repairs done faster, then maybe it's worthwhile. But i'm very skeptical. 

Yes, but the less than able bodied could take a bus, the station isn't ADA accessible anyway.  Those who live north of 116 would to have to deal with the IND. The  has capacity, they might have to BX12 it to the  or  .

A week shutdown would have a negative affect, but if repairs could get done faster, I'm sure that's preferable to weeks and weekends of closures , slow speed orders, etc. It may actually be cheaper because they wouldn't have to waste time setting up and reinstating service and over.  

[itmaybeokay]

Well - if this were being examined by the powers that be I would like to see a cost/time accounting of a prototype. It might, but might not actually save money. 

You don't have that many daytime-scheduled track maintenance crews. Either you're paying extant crews overtime or your'e bringing on additional people. 

If it helps - as long as riders are given viable alternatives - and I still don't think theres enough spare capacity on existing services - then go for it. 

[Deucey]

These week(s)-long shutdowns would need to be situations where EVERYTHING that needs repair, replacement and updating should be done concurrently or simultaneously. None of this piecemeal crap where one time they're redoing the trackbed and track, then they're redoing switches, then another session they're redoing cables and signals. 

Get in, get out, and https://goo.gl/images/1SDnNh

[itmaybeokay]

^ upvoted everything except larry the cable guy

[Lawrence St]

Ok let's say the is out for the whole week between Queensboro and Hudson Yards. Do you think 4 weekends of work could be done in this one week?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 hours ago, itmaybeokay said:

I've only been a jerk to you, and only when you deserved it. Find it and quote it if you think i'm wrong. 

Also, I still don't think that you're getting that this is a fictional, imaginary, hypothetical, not-actually-planned service change, and my comment was only to make a point about the impacts of such. I wasn't complaining. 

 

This is you in 2016 when I noted having waited for extreme periods of time during rush hour for a train:

 

Quote

Well, a train can be taken out of service because of equipment problems, a passenger can need medical attention, a track issue could cause one or two trains to need to be rerouted: literally dozens of unplanned issues could cause a sporadic long wait during rush hour

 

Especially on a line that's duplicated it's entire route. YES - the B is among the first to get cut if there's an issue. Because it's duplicated. 

 

But if you honestly think that this is the result of a secret cost cutting conspiracy - you're a moron. There's no other way around that. It is the least likely of the possible causes. 

Well now that you claim your commute isn't so peachy anymore, maybe you can explain what's causing the frequent f-ups since they aren't using any underhanded tactics to cut service, right... 

It's just cute that now you realize there's a problem, but only after your commute turned to crap.  It just shows your arrogance of thinking that you know it all and that other peoples' commutes can't possibly be as bad as they claim they are because the isn't that bad.  Well they are and rather than excusing them, you should own up to the truth.

Here was another meltdown of the subway today. Walked to the subway at 14:20. Arrived around 14:28. Just missed a train.  Next train was due in about 8 minutes. One arrived almost 15 minutes later.  Reached 59th street-Columbus Circle.  Southbound train arrives on Northbound track and goes OOS. We finally leave some 15+ minutes later. By 15:27 I still had not reached my final destination for a commute that was supposed to be 5 stops (two on the and three on the ) and had to cancel my meeting, and I know for a fact because I have a text message at 15:27 discussing how long I had been commuting with the person I was canceling with and them noting how they had been having an equally rough time with the subway. 

I know this is a fictional thread.  That's not my point.  I want you to acknowledge that everyone else's commute is just as important as yours.  Your attitude and previous comments have stated otherwise, and then you have the audacity to claim that I'm arrogant. Look in the mirror.

[RR503]

In my life, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more petty, reductive, and unnecessary argument as this. And I went to preschool.

Y'all need to get over yourselves. Life isn’t that serious — especially not on transitforums. It’s really okay to let a grudge drop sometimes. I mean jesus christ VG8, it’s been two effing years since that was posted... People are allowed to change their opinions — in fact we should encourage that, not punish them for supposed hypocrisy. 

Why don’t you turn your digitalia off and watch some soothing clips of airplanes landing or whatever. That’d be a much better use of your time. Just some friendly advice... 

[itmaybeokay]

2 minutes ago, RR503 said:

In my life, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more petty, reductive, and unnecessary argument as this. And I went to preschool.

Y'all need to get over yourselves. Life isn’t that serious — especially not on transitforums. It’s really okay to let a grudge drop sometimes. I mean Jesus Christ people, it’s been two effing years since that was posted.. 

Why don’t you turn your digitalia off and watch some soothing clips of airplanes landing or whatever. That’d be a much better use of your time. Just some friendly advice... 

Ey man I'm just sippin my beer watchin Air Disasters so I'm halfway there. 

Sometimes I need to call them like I see them. 

 

36 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

This is you in 2016 when I noted having waited for extreme periods of time during rush hour for a train:

 

Well now that you claim your commute isn't so peachy anymore, maybe you can explain what's causing the frequent f-ups since they aren't using any underhanded tactics to cut service, right... 

It's just cute that now you realize there's a problem, but only after your commute turned to crap.  It just shows your arrogance of thinking that you know it all and that other peoples' commutes can't possibly be as bad as they claim they are because the isn't that bad.  Well they are and rather than excusing them, you should own up to the truth.

Here was another meltdown of the subway today. Walked to the subway at 14:20. Arrived around 14:28. Just missed a train.  Next train was due in about 8 minutes. One arrived almost 15 minutes later.  Reached 59th street-Columbus Circle.  Southbound train arrives on Northbound track and goes OOS. We finally leave some 15+ minutes later. By 15:27 I still had not reached my final destination for a commute that was supposed to be 5 stops (two on the and three on the ) and had to cancel my meeting, and I know for a fact because I have a text message at 15:27 discussing how long I had been commuting with the person I was canceling with and them noting how they had been having an equally rough time with the subway. 

I know this is a fictional thread.  That's not my point.  I want you to acknowledge that everyone else's commute is just as important as yours.  Your attitude and previous comments have stated otherwise, and then you have the audacity to claim that I'm arrogant. Look in the mirror.

Mismanagement and/or flarkups does not equal underhanded tactics (e.g. conspiracy). I stand by that point. The subway has a whole lot of problems.

None of them are an intentional effort to cut service. That's an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. 

I could explain the causes of delays in excruciating detail if you were really interested. It's mostly poor incident recovery and service running close to capacity. (this isn't me justifying the delays, or brownosing)

I never said anything, ever, that would lead anyone to believe I valued my commute over those of anyone else. 

but RR is right. let it go. I don't know when I ever said you were arrogant (I believe I said petulant), but if you want me to say you're right, you're right. 

[RR503]

1 minute ago, itmaybeokay said:

I could explain the causes of delays in excruciating detail if you were really interested. It's mostly poor incident recovery and service running close to capacity. (this isn't me justifying the delays, or brownosing)

Let me second this ad infinatum. The number of discrete incidents has actually decreased over time. It’s our inability to recover from those incidents, and our gradual reduction of line and flex capacity through timing and the fostering of a simultaneously punitive and unaccountable operations culture that’s killing us. Maintenance is, frankly, beside the point.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I've been on the fence about pre-longed shutdowns, but I think I favor them more now. This train nonsense every weekend has just been the tip of the iceberg and the work has to go on for long periods because of what is being done. If lines need to be shutdown for a week or two, it should be looked it if the work can be done efficiently and within a reasonable cost structure. Get in there clean up the stations, take care of maintenance issues and so on and get out, but oversight needs to stepped up. You can't have such disruptions with cost overruns and shoddy work.  

I think before such a thing can be even considered there needs to be more done to address capacity issues and just getting trains to run ON-TIME. The cascading delays during off-peak periods are especially alarming and are worsening.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 hours ago, RR503 said:

Let me second this ad infinatum. The number of discrete incidents has actually decreased over time. It’s our inability to recover from those incidents, and our gradual reduction of line and flex capacity through timing and the fostering of a simultaneously punitive and unaccountable operations culture that’s killing us. Maintenance is, frankly, beside the point.  

Well I still am not convinced. If they were truly interested in turning this mess around, we'd see some level of improvement in just the smallest of things. A number of little things could be done to make a HUGE difference. For starters, better communication.  Communication is still horrendous despite all of the promises of otherwise. The crew often times don't even know what they're saying (and I mean that literally - they just become immune to repeating things and don't even realize what they're saying, leading to tons of confusion for passengers that are actually listening, understand what is being stated, and are trying to get on with their commutes). If you can't relay accurate information to passengers, that right there causes all sorts of delays in and of itself. It shows a lack of organization. Nobody knows what's going on, and quite frankly, some passengers have more of a clue than the crew.

We desperately need more service off-peak. The has talked about changing commutes, but has done little to address them by not adding necessary service, or simply running piss poor service that exists, so at some point, you have to wonder is this agency just that inept, or if they really do have ulterior motives to push away riders.

[Lawrence St]

What we need is a complete redesign of the subway network. 

[LGA Link N Train]

11 hours ago, RR503 said:

I went to preschool.

I just skipped straight to Kindergarten 

 

IF I wereto shut down the subway for a week, I'd close low ridership segments first so that when it's time to close down Major segments, those low ridership sections would be able to handle capacity. And other cases, I'd fix our bus system first. And maybe temporarily limit certain streets to buses to handle lost Capacity

 

[RR503]

8 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Well I still am not convinced. If they were truly interested in turning this mess around, we'd see some level of improvement in just the smallest of things. A number of little things could be done to make a HUGE difference. For starters, better communication.  Communication is still horrendous despite all of the promises of otherwise. The crew often times don't even know what they're saying (and I mean that literally - they just become immune to repeating things and don't even realize what they're saying, leading to tons of confusion for passengers that are actually listening, understand what is being stated, and are trying to get on with their commutes). If you can't relay accurate information to passengers, that right there causes all sorts of delays in and of itself. It shows a lack of organization. Nobody knows what's going on, and quite frankly, some passengers have more of a clue than the crew.

 We desperately need more service off-peak. The has talked about changing commutes, but has done little to address them by not adding necessary service, or simply running piss poor service that exists, so at some point, you have to wonder is this agency just that inept, or if they really do have ulterior motives to push away riders.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying the MTA doesn't have issues -- I think you've outlined two of the biggest ones -- I'm saying that the cause of those issues has been thoroughly obfuscated.

I don't think they have any want to push away riders -- you should see how triggered ppl at HQ get when Uber or Lyft is brought up. I just think those who know what they're doing have been siloed off, and those who don't are generally running the show. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, RR503 said:

You're missing my point. I'm not saying the MTA doesn't have issues -- I think you've outlined two of the biggest ones -- I'm saying that the cause of those issues has been thoroughly obfuscated.

I don't think they have any want to push away riders -- you should see how triggered ppl at HQ get when Uber or Lyft is brought up. I just think those who know what they're doing have been siloed off, and those who don't are generally running the show. 

Can't say I disagree with that...

[Wallyhorse]

On 4/29/2018 at 10:11 PM, Lawrence St said:

Ok let's say the is out for the whole week between Queensboro and Hudson Yards. Do you think 4 weekends of work could be done in this one week?

In theory, they should, and likely be able to do work that takes four full weekends in seven days because of being able to go 24/7 non-stop with two extra days to work with since this likely would assume to include two full weekends as part of such.

During the period they were rebuilding the Market-Frankford Line in Philly, SEPTA had shutdowns of sections for one and sometimes two full weeks non-stop, mainly during the summer.  That likely would be the time to do it, especially if done on a week the Mets are on the road and/or during the All-Star break.

[Around the Horn]

I don't know if they can do four weekends' work in a week non stop, but three is definitely possible.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Maybe on the shuttle lines it would be possible, but on the regular lines? I can't see it working.

[RR503]

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

I don't know if they can do four weekends' work in a week non stop, but three is definitely possible.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that. The MTA is notoriously bad at staging its GOs, so if it could just go in and stay in, I'm sure much more would get done with them not having to set up/clean up. 

[Lawrence St]

Remember that 53rd St closure they did back in the winter? That was actually helpful to repairing the subway.

Cause look, it takes them twice as long to set up and clean up and they don' even have enough time to actually start repairing.

[RR503]

26 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Remember that 53rd St closure they did back in the winter? That was actually helpful to repairing the subway.

Cause look, it takes them twice as long to set up and clean up and they don' even have enough time to actually start repairing.

53rd st was only a mess because they treated it like a pair of weekend GOs. They went in, worked for two days, cleaned up, left, rinsed, repeated.

If we can somehow remind them that treating longer GOs like something more than consecutive weekends will increase productivity, then longer shutdowns can be quite effective. Again, you only have to set up/clean up once regardless of GO length -- and it's in that setting up and cleaning up that we lose the most GO productivity. In doing longer GOs, you can also do more kinds of work than in shorter ones. You can recast trackbed, for example. 

I would argue, however, that the largest benefit of line shutdowns is in the elimination of flagging. Flagging kills service and severely restricts work parameters in GOs, so limiting its use is pretty much always a plus. 

[LGA Link N Train]

Well, to answer the Question of this thread. I close down 6 Avenue for a week because of the and Swap that kept re-occuring. I'd suspend the and for the week. (Depending on the amount of weeks it'll take) send the crew in to do work, then get out. 

Next, I'd do what the did to 53rd to Clark Street along with a few changes to Hoyt Station on the and

That's all I can think of right now

 

[JeremiahC99]

2 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

Well, to answer the Question of this thread. I close down 6 Avenue for a week because of the and Swap that kept re-occuring. I'd suspend the and for the week. (Depending on the amount of weeks it'll take) send the crew in to do work, then get out. 

Next, I'd do what the did to 53rd to Clark Street along with a few changes to Hoyt Station on the and

That's all I can think of right now

 

So your saying to close Clark Street for a whole week?

[JeremiahC99]

To answer the question in this thread of shutting lines for a week to do repairs, if I were to do this, I would shut down the IRT Eastern Pkwy line for a week from Atlantic-Barclays to Utica Avenue and Flatbush Avenue. Here is the service change:

 

Lines affected: :

• : No service between Atlantic-Bayclays and Flatbush Avenue
  • Service operates between 241st Street and Atlantic Avenue,
    • Service operates local from 96th Street to Chambers Street all week.
• : No service between 14th Street and Utica Avenue
  • Service operates in two sections:
    • Between 148th Street and 14th Street
      • Service runs express in Manhattan all week. At 14th Street, trains board at the downtown track.
    • Between Utica Avenue and New Lots Avenue.
      • At Utica Avenue, all trains board from the uptown platform.
• : No trains between Bowling Green and New Lots Avenue.
  • Service operates between Woodlawn and Brooklyn Bridge, days/evenings
    • Late night service operates between Woodlawn and Bowling Green.
      • Service operates local in Manhattan at all times
• : No trains between Bowling Green and Flatbush Avene.
  • Service operates between Dyre Avenue and Bowling Green, days/evenings.
    • Late night service operates between Dyre Avenue and 149th Street-Grand Concourse 

 

Shuttle buses operate along these routes:

•   shuttle buses operates between Atlantic Avenue and Flatbush Avenue, stopping at these stations:
  • Bergen Street  
  • Grand Army Plaza 
  • Eastern Pkwy 
  • Franklin Avenue 
  • President Street 
  • Sterling Street 
  • Winthrop Street 
  • Church Avenue 
  • Beverly Road 
  • Newkirk Avenue 
•   shuttle buses operate between Atlantic Avenue and Utica Avenue, stooping at these stations
  • Bergen Street 
  • Grand Army Plaza 
  • Eastern Pkwy 
  • Franklin Avenue 
  • Nostrand Avenue 
  • Kingston Avenue 

Note that the 2 and 3 train buses are local and the 4 and 5 trains are express buses. The express buses will not operate overnight.

Alternatives to consider:

  for service between Manhattan and Brooklyn, and service in Brooklyn. Alternative for service to stations between Manhattan and New Lots Avenue

 for service between Manhattan and Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn.

 

This can help speed up repairs on that critical segment of subway. Is this a good idea?