De-interlining: Problem or Solution?

[mrsman]

I thought of a new de-interlining plan.  This plan will make extensive use of the switches south of West 4th, that allows 8th Ave locals to transition onto the local tracks under Houston and the 6th Ave locals to transition onto the local tracks under 6th Ave towards Church Street, in the direction of WTC and the Cranberry tunnel.  If one looked closely, if 8th Ave locals transition onto Houston local, and 6th Ave locals transition onto southern 6th Ave, there would be no interference between any of the 8th and 6th trains, even though there is a significant re-routing.

I believe something like this could better separate the existing B division trains from each other and avoiding the usual problems of running M express or having the QBL locals skip Queens Plaza that affect other de-interlining plans.  It can also avoid (or at least delay) the need for extending the platforms along the BMT eastern division.

CPW local -8th Ave local - Culver.  For most of the day,   will run from 168th Street down CPW and 8th Ave as a local train.  It will then utilize the W4 switches to run under Houston and Essex to continue as the Culver line toward CI.  When  doesn't operate in Manhattan, service on A is extended to 207 St Inwood.

CPW local -8th Ave local - Myrtle.  During rush hours,   will operate as the Concourse local emanating from Bedford Park Blvd.  Most other times,  will emanate from 145th Street.  It will travel down CPW and 8th Ave as a local train.  It will then utilize the W4 switches to run under Houston and then follow the route of the current M train along the Williamsburg Bridge to Broadway Brooklyn and Myrtle Ave to end at the Metropolitan Ave station.  Late nights,  is a shuttle along the Myrtle el. 

QBL local - 8th Ave express - Fulton express.  From Forest Hills,   will serve as the sole QBL local train and travel through the 53rd street tunnel and then along the 8th Ave express tracks.  From 42nd southward,  operates in a similar manner to today's A train by running for most of the day as the Fulton express and sending about half the trains to Lefferts and half the trains to Far Rockaway and a few occasional rush hour trains to Rockaway Park.  During late night hours,  will run local along Fulton, and service on QBL local will be extended to 179th.

CPW express - 6th express - Sea Beach.  For most of the day,   will run from 207th street as the CPW express and 6th Ave express and follow the tracks onto the Manhattan Bridge, continuing onto the 4th Ave express.   will then follow the Sea Beach line to Coney Island.  Late nights,  will serve as a Sea Beach shuttle from 36 St to Coney Island.

CPW express - 6th express - Bay Ridge.    will operate from 205th street Norwood as the CPW express and 6th Ave express.  During rush hours,  will provide directional express service along Grand Concourse.   will follow the 6th Ave express tracks onto the Manhattan Bridge, continuing onto the 4th Ave express.  South of 36th, new switches will connect 4th Ave express to the local tracks so that  can serve every station along 4th Ave between 36th and 95th.  Other than rush hour express in the Bronx,  will operate the same service throughout the day, although less frequently during late night hours. Bay Ridge trains will have access to the Concourse Yard.

QBL express - 6th local - WTC.    will opearate from Jamaica Center as a QBL express and travel throught the 63rd street tunnel and then along the 6th Ave local tracks.  It will then utilize the W4 switches to run under 6th Ave to service Spring and Canal and terminate at the WTC.  This is a 24 hour service.

QBL express - 6th local - Fulton local.  will operate from 179th and service all stops between 179th and 75th Ave.  At that point, it will merge with in the express tracks and travel throught the 63rd street tunnel and then along the 6th Ave local tracks.  It will then utilize the W4 switches to run under 6th Ave to service Spring and Canal and then it will merge in with the   tracks to run through the Cranberry tunnel and become the Fulton local that terminates at Euclid. will not operate late nights.  South of the W4 switches, my version of the  , , and   trains will operate very similar manner to today's  ,  , and   trains, respectively - utilizing the Canal merge and running a similar service pattern along the Fulton line.

Unchanged.

Unchanged.  A personal preference would replace Z with K-brown as a means of keeping the letter scheme more orderly.

Unchanged.

2nd Ave / 96th - Broadway express - Brighton line to Coney Island.  This is unchanged from today's service and will operate 24 hours.

 2nd Ave / 96th - Broadway express - Brighton express.  Identical to the current  except that  will operate as an express along the Brighton line and terminate at Brighton Beach.  Could also be demarcated as a  service, if deisred.  No service late nights or weekends.  [If SAS is extended north and branches in some manner (like one service to 125th street and one service up 3rd Ave to the Bronx), then having both a  and a  as separate designations would be necessary.]  

 Astoria - Broadway local - West End.  Trains from Astoria will utilize the 60th street tunnel and run along the Broadway local to the Montague tunnel and then service the 4th Ave local and continue along the West End line to Coney Island.  24 hour service.  Astoria trains will have access to the CI yard.

My current designation scheme leaves M, P, and every letter beyond S as open.  M and P, ideally, can be used for additional BMT service (like new branches off the Broadway line) and any letter beyond S should be used for newer services like SAS into Midtown and Downtown or other future service patterns that are not along existing trunk lines.  The letter demarcation tries to re-create the original IND lettering scheme, while trying to maintain modern demarcations as much as practical.  I.e. making the alpahabetical scheme make sense:

- IND trains emanating from Washington Heights/Inwood 

- IND trains emanating from the Bronx (Concourse)

- IND trains emanating from Queens   

JKL - BMT Eastern Division

- currently undesignated in my plan, but should be used either for BMT eastern division or BMT Broadway line

- BMT Broadway line.    is currently undesignated in my plan.

- shuttles

TUVWXYZ - SAS and other future services

[mrsman]

^^^^^ The last M mentioned above should be M in parethesis, not  

[Amiri the subway guy]

I know I’m in the minority when I said this but I believe that we shouldn’t “fully” deinterline the subway. They are some cases where interlining is actually needed for the service the to work IRT being the most notable example. 

Eliminating  train service and Senting the  train to dyre Avenue is a huge red flag The White Plains Road riders uses the  train  to get to the Lexington Avenue line. 

How the hell are people going to get to the east side without it. The Metro North won’t even be an effective replacement.  149th Street Grand Concourse will become a crowded nightmare. The 2 and 4 trains are already overcrowded with the way the system currently is. 

Removing the 5 train will worsen things since now that forces riders to use the and  train and transfer at 149 street with was not built to handle a huge amount of transfers riders will have to get off the “overcrowded”  train for a “overcrowded”  train. The  and  as well will become even more crowded then ever before this is especially the case with the  since that leaves the  as literally the only direct route to Manhattan’s east side from anywhere in the South or East Bronx. If the  both serve The Bronx, there is no longer any service to the 145th Street or Harlem – 148th Street stations on the coverting that part into a shuttle isn’t the best option either since that would be screwing over everyone trying to get to midtown and Brooklyn on Harlem. And it’s actually a good thing that the  doesn’t go into the Bronx. Reason? Go on to the  abd you will notice that it  get crowded real fast heck but 3 ave 149th street it’s nearly impossible to get on it so the  train being pretty empty in Harlem is a very popular alternative for the packed  trains.

(See what I’m talking about) So believe or not deinterling IRT actually does more **harm** than “good”. So Interling is actually **necessary** for IRT to work. Trust me I’m a daily  train rider I see how those trains operate

And for Rogers junction let’s face it it will never be perfect so their no use in even trying at this point. It actually works out. A lot of people use the  train on nostrand  Avenue to get to Lexington Avenue. And a lot of people on the New Lots Avenue uses the  train to get to 7th Avenue and the  train needs quick access to the Livonia Yard. So IRT just leave it the way it is 

[mrsman]

9 hours ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

I know I’m in the minority when I said this but I believe that we shouldn’t “fully” deinterline the subway. They are some cases where interlining is actually needed for the service the to work IRT being the most notable example. 

Eliminating  train service and Senting the  train to dyre Avenue is a huge red flag The White Plains Road riders uses the  train  to get to the Lexington Avenue line. 

How the hell are people going to get to the east side without it. The Metro North won’t even be an effective replacement.  149th Street Grand Concourse will become a crowded nightmare. The 2 and 4 trains are already overcrowded with the way the system currently is. 

Removing the 5 train will worsen things since now that forces riders to use the and  train and transfer at 149 street with was not built to handle a huge amount of transfers riders will have to get off the “overcrowded”  train for a “overcrowded”  train. The  and  as well will become even more crowded then ever before this is especially the case with the  since that leaves the  as literally the only direct route to Manhattan’s east side from anywhere in the South or East Bronx. If the  both serve The Bronx, there is no longer any service to the 145th Street or Harlem – 148th Street stations on the coverting that part into a shuttle isn’t the best option either since that would be screwing over everyone trying to get to midtown and Brooklyn on Harlem. And it’s actually a good thing that the  doesn’t go into the Bronx. Reason? Go on to the  abd you will notice that it  get crowded real fast heck but 3 ave 149th street it’s nearly impossible to get on it so the  train being pretty empty in Harlem is a very popular alternative for the packed  trains.

(See what I’m talking about) So believe or not deinterling IRT actually does more **harm** than “good”. So Interling is actually **necessary** for IRT to work. Trust me I’m a daily  train rider I see how those trains operate

And for Rogers junction let’s face it it will never be perfect so their no use in even trying at this point. It actually works out. A lot of people use the  train on nostrand  Avenue to get to Lexington Avenue. And a lot of people on the New Lots Avenue uses the  train to get to 7th Avenue and the  train needs quick access to the Livonia Yard. So IRT just leave it the way it is 

I largely agree.  Nearly all of my deinterlining proposals have solely involved the B division.

IRT is already partially deinterlined,  and  do not interfere with any other lines.

In the Bronx side, I view the 149th Concourse station in a similar manner to Delancey/Essex.  If one wanted perfect deinterlining, you would run  along 149th and  along Jerome, but that will definitely force a ton of people to make the transfer as there are significant number of White Plains Rd and Dyre customers that want to go to the East Side.  So the current  is a good service to account for that.  The West Side and the East Side IRT lines are far apart from each other for nearly all of their run in Manhattan that they are not really interchangeable.  (In contrast, deinterlining plans for BMT in Brooklyn largely do work because teh Broadway BMT and 6th Ave IND do run within one avenue of each other through most of Midtown.) Similar to the situation in the Bronx, a perfect deinterlining will send M to the Nassau line and increase 6th Ave local service to the Rutgers tunnel, but that will force a ton of people to make the transfer at Delancey/Essex since many of the JMZ riders want Midtown, so the current  is a good service to account for that and minimize the transferring at Delancy/Essex.  Many B division deinterlining plans retain M service to Midtown (in some manner) including my most recent plan above that makes the connection as a  service.  So basically, I am happy to live with the current  service  and teh current  service even though it amounts to a parital interlining.

For the Brooklyn side of the IRT, the layout of the tracks is such that deinterlining there is probably more feasible than in the Bronx.  But it will certainly require significant capital investment.  (For the most part, my plans are deinterliining on the cheap with the only capital expenses considered are an increase in free transfers like 63/Lex-59/Lex, Grand-Bowery, Broadway/Laffayette-Prince and the addition of switches on the 4th Ave line south of 36th.) 

If the capital improvements were made, I would be in favor of sending all  to Flatbush, all  to New Lots, all  to Utica, and all  to Rockaway Ave (utilizing the yard leads near Junius to reverse trains).   will reverse branch with  somewhere east of teh point where  splits off the line towards Nostrand Ave.  This would require fixing the at-grade junction and the additon of a pair of switches.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

17 hours ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

I know I’m in the minority when I said this but I believe that we shouldn’t “fully” deinterline the subway. They are some cases where interlining is actually needed for the service the to work IRT being the most notable example. 

Eliminating  train service and Senting the  train to dyre Avenue is a huge red flag The White Plains Road riders uses the  train  to get to the Lexington Avenue line. 

How the hell are people going to get to the east side without it. The Metro North won’t even be an effective replacement.  149th Street Grand Concourse will become a crowded nightmare. The 2 and 4 trains are already overcrowded with the way the system currently is. 

Removing the 5 train will worsen things since now that forces riders to use the and  train and transfer at 149 street with was not built to handle a huge amount of transfers riders will have to get off the “overcrowded”  train for a “overcrowded”  train. The  and  as well will become even more crowded then ever before this is especially the case with the  since that leaves the  as literally the only direct route to Manhattan’s east side from anywhere in the South or East Bronx. If the  both serve The Bronx, there is no longer any service to the 145th Street or Harlem – 148th Street stations on the coverting that part into a shuttle isn’t the best option either since that would be screwing over everyone trying to get to midtown and Brooklyn on Harlem. And it’s actually a good thing that the  doesn’t go into the Bronx. Reason? Go on to the  abd you will notice that it  get crowded real fast heck but 3 ave 149th street it’s nearly impossible to get on it so the  train being pretty empty in Harlem is a very popular alternative for the packed  trains.

(See what I’m talking about) So believe or not deinterling IRT actually does more **harm** than “good”. So Interling is actually **necessary** for IRT to work. Trust me I’m a daily  train rider I see how those trains operate

And for Rogers junction let’s face it it will never be perfect so their no use in even trying at this point. It actually works out. A lot of people use the  train on nostrand  Avenue to get to Lexington Avenue. And a lot of people on the New Lots Avenue uses the  train to get to 7th Avenue and the  train needs quick access to the Livonia Yard. So IRT just leave it the way it is 

I'll agree with you on the Bronx side. I don't support removing the , though I would like to see Transit do something about the northbound delays at East 180th St whenever a 241st St-bound  and a Dyre Ave-bound  arrive there at the same time. Because when I used to ride those lines, that happened all the time.

Brooklyn is different. You've got four services passing through Rogers Jct, instead of two. And three of those service have to merge, then quickly de-merge entering/leaving Franklin Ave. With that kind of operation, there's no way during rush hours there couldn't be delays. Has any consideration ever been given to reconfiguring Rogers so the  go to/from Flatbush and the  go to/from Utica/New Lots? This would require some construction, but pretty much the only option that wouldn't require any construction would be  to Flatbush/  to/from Utica/New Lots. And there seems to be quite a lot of pushback on that option. Plus that option forces Transit to run the  in "creative" ways, because it would have no direct access to Livonia Yard and - unlike Lex - the 7th Ave Line has no good place to turn back express trains in Lower Manhattan. At least if it's the  to Flatbush and the  to Utica/New Lots scenario, the  and  would be able to operate the same as now.

 

[JeremiahC99]

47 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Plus that option forces Transit to run the  in "creative" ways, because it would have no direct access to Livonia Yard and - unlike Lex - the 7th Ave Line has no good place to turn back express trains in Lower Manhattan. At least if it's the  to Flatbush and the  to Utica/New Lots scenario, the  and  would be able to operate the same as now.

Doesn’t the  have the Lenox Yard for storing trains during the off hours?  Maybe some trains could be sorted there during overnight and trains go to East 180th Street Yard or another yard during the low ridership times?

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Has any consideration ever been given to reconfiguring Rogers so the  go to/from Flatbush and the  go to/from Utica/New Lots? This would require some construction, but pretty much the only option that wouldn't require any construction would be  to Flatbush/  to/from Utica/New Lots.

Well if you rebuild Rogers into a Y-Junction, sure. That isn’t a new idea (it is one that I’ve warmed up to) whatsoever as referenced here: 

http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/IRT-Nostrand-Junction-Report.pdf

also, I may be in the minority here, but I don’t see the Yard Issue being a big deal under a  to Flatbush,  Utica/New Lots alignment under the condition that the R262’s completely replaced the R62/62A’s. It would just be a similar case with the . 

[mrsman]

On 8/11/2021 at 1:11 PM, mrsman said:

I thought of a new de-interlining plan.  This plan will make extensive use of the switches south of West 4th, that allows 8th Ave locals to transition onto the local tracks under Houston and the 6th Ave locals to transition onto the local tracks under 6th Ave towards Church Street, in the direction of WTC and the Cranberry tunnel.  If one looked closely, if 8th Ave locals transition onto Houston local, and 6th Ave locals transition onto southern 6th Ave, there would be no interference between any of the 8th and 6th trains, even though there is a significant re-routing.

I believe something like this could better separate the existing B division trains from each other and avoiding the usual problems of running M express or having the QBL locals skip Queens Plaza that affect other de-interlining plans.  It can also avoid (or at least delay) the need for extending the platforms along the BMT eastern division.

  CPW local -8th Ave local - Culver.  For most of the day,  will run from 168th Street down CPW and 8th Ave as a local train.  It will then utilize the W4 switches to run under Houston and Essex to continue as the Culver line toward CI.  When  doesn't operate in Manhattan, service on A is extended to 207 St Inwood.

 CPW local -8th Ave local - Myrtle.  During rush hours,  will operate as the Concourse local emanating from Bedford Park Blvd.  Most other times,  will emanate from 145th Street.  It will travel down CPW and 8th Ave as a local train.  It will then utilize the W4 switches to run under Houston and then follow the route of the current M train along the Williamsburg Bridge to Broadway Brooklyn and Myrtle Ave to end at the Metropolitan Ave station.  Late nights,  is a shuttle along the Myrtle el. 

 QBL local - 8th Ave express - Fulton express.  From Forest Hills,  will serve as the sole QBL local train and travel through the 53rd street tunnel and then along the 8th Ave express tracks.  From 42nd southward,  operates in a similar manner to today's A train by running for most of the day as the Fulton express and sending about half the trains to Lefferts and half the trains to Far Rockaway and a few occasional rush hour trains to Rockaway Park.  During late night hours,  will run local along Fulton, and service on QBL local will be extended to 179th.

 CPW express - 6th express - Sea Beach.  For most of the day,  will run from 207th street as the CPW express and 6th Ave express and follow the tracks onto the Manhattan Bridge, continuing onto the 4th Ave express.   will then follow the Sea Beach line to Coney Island.  Late nights,  will serve as a Sea Beach shuttle from 36 St to Coney Island.

 CPW express - 6th express - Bay Ridge.   will operate from 205th street Norwood as the CPW express and 6th Ave express.  During rush hours,  will provide directional express service along Grand Concourse.   will follow the 6th Ave express tracks onto the Manhattan Bridge, continuing onto the 4th Ave express.  South of 36th, new switches will connect 4th Ave express to the local tracks so that  can serve every station along 4th Ave between 36th and 95th.  Other than rush hour express in the Bronx,  will operate the same service throughout the day, although less frequently during late night hours. Bay Ridge trains will have access to the Concourse Yard.

 QBL express - 6th local - WTC.   will opearate from Jamaica Center as a QBL express and travel throught the 63rd street tunnel and then along the 6th Ave local tracks.  It will then utilize the W4 switches to run under 6th Ave to service Spring and Canal and terminate at the WTC.  This is a 24 hour service.

H [orange] QBL express - 6th local - Fulton local.  H will operate from 179th and service all stops between 179th and 75th Ave.  At that point, it will merge with  in the express tracks and travel throught the 63rd street tunnel and then along the 6th Ave local tracks.  It will then utilize the W4 switches to run under 6th Ave to service Spring and Canal and then it will merge in with the  tracks to run through the Cranberry tunnel and become the Fulton local that terminates at Euclid. H will not operate late nights.  South of the W4 switches, my version of the  , H, and   trains will operate very similar manner to today's  ,  , and   trains, respectively - utilizing the Canal merge and running a similar service pattern along the Fulton line.

 Unchanged.

 Unchanged.  A personal preference would replace Z with K-brown as a means of keeping the letter scheme more orderly.

 Unchanged.

 2nd Ave / 96th - Broadway express - Brighton line to Coney Island.  This is unchanged from today's service and will operate 24 hours.

 2nd Ave / 96th - Broadway express - Brighton express.  Identical to the current  except that  will operate as an express along the Brighton line and terminate at Brighton Beach.  Could also be demarcated as a  service, if deisred.  No service late nights or weekends.  [If SAS is extended north and branches in some manner (like one service to 125th street and one service up 3rd Ave to the Bronx), then having both a  and a  as separate designations would be necessary.]  

 Astoria - Broadway local - West End.  Trains from Astoria will utilize the 60th street tunnel and run along the Broadway local to the Montague tunnel and then service the 4th Ave local and continue along the West End line to Coney Island.  24 hour service.  Astoria trains will have access to the CI yard.

My current designation scheme leaves M, P, and every letter beyond S as open.  M and P, ideally, can be used for additional BMT service (like new branches off the Broadway line) and any letter beyond S should be used for newer services like SAS into Midtown and Downtown or other future service patterns that are not along existing trunk lines.  The letter demarcation tries to re-create the original IND lettering scheme, while trying to maintain modern demarcations as much as practical.  I.e. making the alpahabetical scheme make sense:

AB - IND trains emanating from Washington Heights/Inwood

CD - IND trains emanating from the Bronx (Concourse)

EFGH - IND trains emanating from Queens

JKL - BMT Eastern Division

- currently undesignated in my plan, but should be used either for BMT eastern division or BMT Broadway line

N(P)QR - BMT Broadway line.  P is currently undesignated in my plan.

S - shuttles

TUVWXYZ - SAS and other future services

Can the above plan be implemented with the addition of SAS phases 3 and 4?  Yes, with the following changes:

 A deinterlined SAS route along 2nd Ave that will continue south of 63rd street along the plans promulgated by MTA to Hanover Square.*  If the line branches on the north side, you can have two routes: T and V, one route heading west on 125th and one route going further to the Bronx.  Both routes will run the full SAS from 116th to Hanover Square.

A deinterlined SAS means that the Broadway express   trains will no longer serve SAS.  SAS will be solely served by T and V trains.  The capacity of the SAS line will be limited to T and V, there will simply be no more room for NQ trains along the SAS.

To ease transfers, a connection should be made between 63/Lex and 59/Lex.  Further, transfer connections from 55/2nd should be made to 59/Lex and 53/Lex stations.  So while a walking transfer from 63/Lex to 55/2 is possible, it is undoubtedly a long transfer.  If there are any SAS passengers that want to transfer to subways that serve the west side, they can transfer to transfer to  and  trains (to be discussed later) along 53rd street to the 8th Ave express or to the  along 60th street to the Broadway locals.

So if  trains will no longer go to SAS, where will they go?  For this we will do some process of elimination:

 [and V] , as mentioned above, will run along the full length SAS, which will displace the northern routing of N and Q under my earlier plan.  

 and  will be rerouted along 63rd street to take over the QBL express line.   from Jamaica Center, along QBL express, to 63rd street line, Broadway express to Brighton local.  24 hours.   from 179th, with service as a Hillside express, QBL express, to 63rd street line, Broadway express to Brighton express.  N service only on weekdays.  This change will displace the northern routing of F and orange-H under my earlier plan.

 will be rerouted as a 6th Ave local that serves Manhattan only.  It will be run from 57/6, down the 6th Ave local, utilize the W4 switches and terminate at WTC.  This train will only operate on weekdays.  The platforms at 57/6 and WTC will not see any trains at nights or weekends.  [57/6 station will be closed late nights and weekends.]  Switches should be provided along the route to ensure that  can terminate at 57th and that the parallel express trains can serve the local stops at times when the  isn't running.  This means  and  will service 23rd and 14th and that  and  will serve Spring when  isn't running.  Orange-H will no longer be serviced when  is in operation, it will be replaced by  .

 service can be supplemented with  service.  The changes to the 6th Ave local mentioned in the previous paragraph mean that there are now fewer trains servicing the tracks that approach WTC and the Cranberry tunnel.  The earlier plan had E on the express into Cranberry tunnel, F on the local to the WTC, and H on the local merging in with the E toward Cranberry tunnel.  The changes to 6th Ave local service will mean that we can put more service on the 8th Ave express and avoid the Canal merge.  So  and  can both serve as QBL locals that start at 179th, service all of the Hillside stops and QBL local stops and run through the 53rd street tunnel to the 8th Ave express.  The trains will continue into the Cranberry tunnel with  trains serving as Fulton express to Lefferts or Far Rockaway (and a small number of rush hour trains to Rockaway Park) and  serving as the Fulton local terminating at Euclid.   is 24 hours and  will not operate late nights.  E will serve the Fulton local stations when H isn't running.  It should be noted that the increase in service now contemplated for the QBL local/ 8th Ave express line will mean that we can no longer have all QBL locals stop at Forest Hills.  So, the QBL locals should start at 179th, or alternatively if a new branch to Rockaway or along the LIE is proposed, then half of the QBL locals can be directed to the new branch.

All other service metioned in my previous post will be the same.

 

* If T [and V] service is directed into the Nassau line, instead of Hanover Square, all of the above would still apply, with the following additional changes:

A reverse branch will be introduced in the Montague tunnel.  This means that some  trains will terminate in Lower Manhattan (City Hall or Whitehall) and only some will continue into  Brooklyn along the 4th Ave local and the West End line.  Some of the SAS trains will terminate in Lower Manhattan (likely at Broad St) and some SAS trains will continue into  Brooklyn along the 4th Ave local and the West End line.  Routing in this way will mean that at least some of the SAS trains will serve transfer heavy stops like Court St - Boro Hall, Jay St, DeKalb, and Atlantic and have access to the CI yards.

 

 

[Amiri the subway guy]

9 hours ago, mrsman said:

Can the above plan be implemented with the addition of SAS phases 3 and 4?  Yes, with the following changes:

 A deinterlined SAS route along 2nd Ave that will continue south of 63rd street along the plans promulgated by MTA to Hanover Square.*  If the line branches on the north side, you can have two routes: T and V, one route heading west on 125th and one route going further to the Bronx.  Both routes will run the full SAS from 116th to Hanover Square.

A deinterlined SAS means that the Broadway express   trains will no longer serve SAS.  SAS will be solely served by T and V trains.  The capacity of the SAS line will be limited to T and V, there will simply be no more room for NQ trains along the SAS.

To ease transfers, a connection should be made between 63/Lex and 59/Lex.  Further, transfer connections from 55/2nd should be made to 59/Lex and 53/Lex stations.  So while a walking transfer from 63/Lex to 55/2 is possible, it is undoubtedly a long transfer.  If there are any SAS passengers that want to transfer to subways that serve the west side, they can transfer to transfer to  and  trains (to be discussed later) along 53rd street to the 8th Ave express or to the  along 60th street to the Broadway locals.

So if  trains will no longer go to SAS, where will they go?  For this we will do some process of elimination:

 [and V] , as mentioned above, will run along the full length SAS, which will displace the northern routing of N and Q under my earlier plan.  

 and  will be rerouted along 63rd street to take over the QBL express line.   from Jamaica Center, along QBL express, to 63rd street line, Broadway express to Brighton local.  24 hours.   from 179th, with service as a Hillside express, QBL express, to 63rd street line, Broadway express to Brighton express.  N service only on weekdays.  This change will displace the northern routing of F and orange-H under my earlier plan.

 will be rerouted as a 6th Ave local that serves Manhattan only.  It will be run from 57/6, down the 6th Ave local, utilize the W4 switches and terminate at WTC.  This train will only operate on weekdays.  The platforms at 57/6 and WTC will not see any trains at nights or weekends.  [57/6 station will be closed late nights and weekends.]  Switches should be provided along the route to ensure that  can terminate at 57th and that the parallel express trains can serve the local stops at times when the  isn't running.  This means  and  will service 23rd and 14th and that  and  will serve Spring when  isn't running.  Orange-H will no longer be serviced when  is in operation, it will be replaced by  .

 service can be supplemented with  service.  The changes to the 6th Ave local mentioned in the previous paragraph mean that there are now fewer trains servicing the tracks that approach WTC and the Cranberry tunnel.  The earlier plan had E on the express into Cranberry tunnel, F on the local to the WTC, and H on the local merging in with the E toward Cranberry tunnel.  The changes to 6th Ave local service will mean that we can put more service on the 8th Ave express and avoid the Canal merge.  So  and  can both serve as QBL locals that start at 179th, service all of the Hillside stops and QBL local stops and run through the 53rd street tunnel to the 8th Ave express.  The trains will continue into the Cranberry tunnel with  trains serving as Fulton express to Lefferts or Far Rockaway (and a small number of rush hour trains to Rockaway Park) and  serving as the Fulton local terminating at Euclid.   is 24 hours and  will not operate late nights.  E will serve the Fulton local stations when H isn't running.  It should be noted that the increase in service now contemplated for the QBL local/ 8th Ave express line will mean that we can no longer have all QBL locals stop at Forest Hills.  So, the QBL locals should start at 179th, or alternatively if a new branch to Rockaway or along the LIE is proposed, then half of the QBL locals can be directed to the new branch.

All other service metioned in my previous post will be the same.

 

* If T [and V] service is directed into the Nassau line, instead of Hanover Square, all of the above would still apply, with the following additional changes:

A reverse branch will be introduced in the Montague tunnel.  This means that some  trains will terminate in Lower Manhattan (City Hall or Whitehall) and only some will continue into  Brooklyn along the 4th Ave local and the West End line.  Some of the SAS trains will terminate in Lower Manhattan (likely at Broad St) and some SAS trains will continue into  Brooklyn along the 4th Ave local and the West End line.  Routing in this way will mean that at least some of the SAS trains will serve transfer heavy stops like Court St - Boro Hall, Jay St, DeKalb, and Atlantic and have access to the CI yards.

 

 

That’s why I strongly recommend the building of a new Northern Blvd line to send some train down there for deinterling 

[Amiri the subway guy]

On 8/13/2021 at 6:06 PM, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

Well if you rebuild Rogers into a Y-Junction, sure. That isn’t a new idea (it is one that I’ve warmed up to) whatsoever as referenced here: 

http://www.vanshnookenraggen.com/_index/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/IRT-Nostrand-Junction-Report.pdf

also, I may be in the minority here, but I don’t see the Yard Issue being a big deal under a  to Flatbush,  Utica/New Lots alignment under the condition that the R262’s completely replaced the R62/62A’s. It would just be a similar case with the . 

It very likely that the  will use separate equipment so the  will still need a yard.

[mrsman]

Some deinterlining resources that may be helpful.

Alon Levy:

https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/06/12/how-deinterlining-can-improve-new-york-city-transit/

Vanshnookenraggen (twitter):

https://twitter.com/vanshnook/status/1359599882189885450

 

Nerdy Nel - NYTIP:

https://nerdynel.me/2019/01/25/nytip/

[mrsman]

After reviewing many of the above websites, I have found that I like a bit of a hybrid approach.  There are elements of each of these plans that I like and some that I do not.  Heck, some of my own plans on here that I have posted could also be improved.

I do like Vanshnookenraggen's approach for Southern Brooklyn.  This basically means:

 Astoria - 60th - Broadway local - Montague - 4th Ave local -West End line

 96th/2nd - Broadway express - Man Bridge S - Brighton local

 96th/2nd - Broadway express - Man Bridge S - Brighton express

 Man Bridge N - 4th Ave express - Sea Beach

 Man Bridge N - 4th Ave express - 4th Ave local south of 36th (by way of a new switch) - Bay Ridge

I do like Alon Levy's approach for most of the rest of the B division, except the CPW line north of 145th.  This basically means:

 CPW express - 8th Ave express - Cranberry - Fulton lines

 CPW local - 6th Ave express - Man Bridge N

 Forest Hills - QBL local - 53rd - 8th Ave local - WTC

 JC or 179th - QBL express - 63rd - 6th Ave local - Rutgers tunnel - Culver line (some V trains may terminate at Houston/2nd)

M reverts to the Nassau line.:  Metropolitan Ave - Broadway Brooklyn line - Will Bridge - Nassau line - Chambers or Broad

Nerdy Nel really goes into a good explanation of CPW.  Basically, the junction there can support both the Inwood branch and the Concourse branch each having one express and one local.  The only reverse-merging at 145th will take place in the reverse peak because both Concourse local and express share the same track.  As such,:

 207 St - CPW express

 205 St - Concourse express - CPW express

 168th - CPW local

 Bedford Park Blvd - Concourse local - CPW local

 

I would leave Division A alone for the moment.

 

I see all of the above as first steps that can be done with minimal captial expenditure.  Other than the switch for the  , the infrastructure can support these train patterns and the only thing that would be needed for implementaion are new signs and maps and perhaps an education campaign and weathering the political storm for those who will not like the changes.

However, deinterlining should only be a first phase to general subway improvements.  There are many captial projects that can seriously improve the above, but it will take more effort, time, and money to complete capital projects.  Of course, several lines could see extensions, but the following projects seem to be the most important, if possible to make deinterlining work better.

Conversion of 36 St Queens to an express stop

Conversion of Woodhaven on the QBL to an express stop

Broome St subway - essentailly a link for the 8th Ave locals to go right to the Williamsburg Bridge so that current J, M, and Z passengers can still maintain a connection to Midtown.

63/Lex to 59/Lex full in-system free transfer

Bowery - Grand free transfer

Prince St - Broadway/Laffayette free transfer

Queensboro Plaza - Queens Plaza free transfer

Improvments at terminals so that more trains can be turned.

A capital project to improve the Rogers Junction could help with the congestion of Division A trains in Brooklyn.  I could see a substantial improvement to trains here, especially if  to Flatbush,  to New Lots and  to Utica.  Another possibility is to Flatbush,  to New Lots,  to Utica, and  to Atlantic.  This option would require a turning track south of Atlantic for  trains.

 

[Theli11]

52 minutes ago, mrsman said:

I would leave Division A alone for the moment.

 

 

52 minutes ago, mrsman said:

A capital project to improve the Rogers Junction could help with the congestion of Division A trains in Brooklyn.  I could see a substantial improvement to trains here, especially if  to Flatbush,  to New Lots and  to Utica.  Another possibility is to Flatbush,  to New Lots,  to Utica, and  to Atlantic.  This option would require a turning track south of Atlantic for  trains.

 

A Division needs interlining for it to even work. Unlike the B Division there's not a lot of options for trains to go and since the IRT runs to two seperate sides of Manhattan it's just better to interline in general. Rogers Junction should also just look like the current 59th St set up. At least then  and trains won't cross in front of each other.