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mrbrklyn

SBS B82 just undoable

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(originally posted in the wong section and can't seem to be edited or deleted)

THE SBS B82 design is undoable and detrimental to the Borough and local communities.  Nothing but misinformation that has been published by the MTA and advocates of this proposal.  First of all, most people around the district in question drive.  This is really not disputable.  The area is full of single family homes with driveways, and condos with garages and the parking is at saturation from the Waterfront to the Railroad cut on Avenue I.

Secondly, very few people take this bus (B82) through the route.  Only about 8k riders take the limited all along the route, and the majority of riders are in Canarsie.  The reason for that is that Canarsie is suburban bedroom community with a single subway and is carved out to prevent through traffic on the majority of its streets.  That puts extreme transit stress on the one real route in, though and out of the community, which is Flatlands Avenue.  The majority of users that use the B82 use it for local traffic in and around Canarsie.

On the other other hand, what the riders in Canarsie are proposing is a proposition that they would never accept on Avenue L, which would be turning the Kings Highway business district into a Bus Lane with an exclusive right of way for buses only on a very narrow street used by many different constituencies.

It has been suggested here that Kings Highway provides necessary outer-ring route.  That is not only wrong, but it is a matter of historical accident that the road exists at all.  The road was only designed for local traffic from Ocean Avenue to Stillwell Avenue and never widened ehough to even handle its designation at a truck route.

It has been suggested that the bus moves the most people in the district and should get priority.  I'm sorry, but that is not only wrong, but it is laughable.  Maybe the proponents who write this somehow over looked the Q and B train, the B100, the B31, B2, and the B7 buses.  Less than 8% of all the people that come to the entire span from Stillwell to Ocean Avenue arrive by any bus.

The vast majority of the people who come and use that district are not surprisingly the local population that live nearby.  According the MTAs own numbers, they make up over 80% of the surveyed population.  They come by walking or driving.  The trips made by walking and driving are also the highest valued forms of transit in that they involved complex door to door carting services and are complex and diverse routes for a highly valuable form of transportation.  This includes, for example, the taxiing of individuals to appointments, schools, meetings and leisure activities along the route.  It includes the shopping and moving of large amounts of goods and services.  It includes transportation for the elderly and handicapped, etc.  Obviously, the bus can not provide this kind of service to families, not in Canarsie or in Midwood.  The bus is only useful for the simplest types of trips, trips where one can go to an inconvenient designated pick up spot, arrive an an equally inconvenient drop of spot,  and most often return the same route, and without carrying any substantial luggage or freight.  Bus transit is therefor only useful for repeated trips to work or school, as long as one is adequately mobile and not loaded up with freight.   It is useful for restaurants, bars, starbucks, and sometimes movies theaters.  Bus transport is all but useless high valued transportation such as when transporting whole families, shopping for weekly groceries, clothing shopping, medical appointments for the elderly, sick or handicapped, or any trips that require multiple stops, and lots of packages.

The rational thing to do here would be to decouple the B82 back to the B50 and divide the east west portions of the route.  This would maximize the usage for Canarsie residents and increase the local service for them, since they use the local service more than 2:1 local over express service.  If you do an SBS service it needs to go down Avenue P.  That will give it quick and easy access to the Brighton Linei, a half a block from the Avenue P and East 16th bus stop, and gives direct access to the F train at the Avenue P station.  It properly bypasses the N train, which is redundant service to the B, Q and F trains, and that station is designed only for local access anyway.

The best explanation of the details of all this is at www.brooklyn-living.com  - specifically http://www.brooklyn-living.com/b82_sbs_opposition.html2272x1279-DSC00136.JPG

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You’re saying the B82 only serves a small minority of people? No it doesn’t. Thousands of people use that route and thousands would be hurt job wise if you so called decouple the route. The B82 has been there for over 20 years and yet this fantasy of splitting the route isn’t going to happen. Most people who go to those stores don’t arrive there by car. Have you bothered to even look at who and what go into those stores? Youre saying a bus is going to harm families and what have you not but this is just fear mongering. School kids use the bus, workers, elderly people, and so on. Only 8% take the limited? The limited only runs for a few hours out of the day and a lot of passengers have no choice but to take the local because the local is the only service 24/7.

You say bus or transit is useless when it comes down to heavy shopping but the midwood area don’t have businesses made for heavy shopping if so there would be big parking lots to them like gateway mall and ceasers bay. Places like those are made for heavy shopping because it has space and made for cars.

The congestion along kings hwy is one of the major issues a lot of the opponents of sbs don’t want to issue because let’s face it. The ones who double park causing it are those who live in that community. Let’s also bring into fact parking in bus stops while people have to walk or disembark in the street. 

All what you guys have to say is put the B82 along Avenue p because it’s bigger and easier for the bus to make its transfers. Instead of claiming buses harm families or businesses which isn’t true. 

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2 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

You’re saying the B82 only serves a small minority of people? No it doesn’t. Thousands of people use that route and thousands would be hurt job wise if you so called decouple the route. The B82 has been there for over 20 years and yet this fantasy of splitting the route isn’t going to happen. Most people who go to those stores don’t arrive there by car. Have you bothered to even look at who and what go into those stores? Youre saying a bus is going to harm families and what have you not but this is just fear mongering. School kids use the bus, workers, elderly people, and so on. Only 8% take the limited? The limited only runs for a few hours out of the day and a lot of passengers have no choice but to take the local because the local is the only service 24/7.

You say bus or transit is useless when it comes down to heavy shopping but the midwood area don’t have businesses made for heavy shopping if so there would be big parking lots to them like gateway mall and ceasers bay. Places like those are made for heavy shopping because it has space and made for cars.

The congestion along kings hwy is one of the major issues a lot of the opponents of sbs don’t want to issue because let’s face it. The ones who double park causing it are those who live in that community. Let’s also bring into fact parking in bus stops while people have to walk or disembark in the street. 

All what you guys have to say is put the B82 along Avenue p because it’s bigger and easier for the bus to make its transfers. Instead of claiming buses harm families or businesses which isn’t true.  

What I said was correct and verrified by the MTA itself.  All buses that service the area make up on 8% of the traffic in the district.  That is the definition of a small minority.  92%, which is everyone else, that is called an overwhelming majority.   If 8% represents thousand s of people than 92% represents 100's of thousands of people.

It is a question that congestion on Kings Highway is indeed a problem at all.  We want traffic in our business district.  We want the cars, that the subway trains, and we even reluctantly accept buses.  But lets face the facts, this B82 has been a drag on the economy since it was created.  It is slow.  It gums up a vital truck route, and it uses valable roadway and parking areas, and obstructs pedetrain traffic with the needless bus stands.  On Avenue J they addressed this by just removing some of the bus stops.

The same should be done on Kings Highway.  The bus can be divided and detoured up Avenue P - down East 16th Street, and to the large train entrance along with the B2, B31, and B100 and then sent back to Canarsie through Quentin or Avenue S.

The western side should end on Coney Island Avenue.  This will free up the street for the truck traffic and pedestrains.

It would also be smart to make Avenue P the truck route.  But they need to either raise the train or drop the road about 6inches to a foot more because the tractor trailers always small against the subway overpass.  It is a worthwhile investment, I believe.  A future consideration is to build a bus station on East 16th, with public parking.

Even for a low value tansit activity, just you and a backpack from Rockaway Parkway to the Brighton Line and back, buses are the worst way to move people and the most expensive.  Buses destroy the road, are the biggest cause of congrestion, lousy on fuel, require lots of bus drivers, are expensive to repair, need maintenmence of vending machings and signage and now shelters, cause pedestrain traffic and garbage and litter ... I mean they are just a loser.  Your kidneys get grinded from the potholes, you are assualted on them by people yelling on their cellphones, or blaring music.  They are hot and have limited ventalation.  Bigger buses are bigger losers.  If you put 40 people on a bus, they are trapped like animals and can't get off fast enough.  They are even a potential health hazzard because they contribute to the transmition of infectious disease.

Buses are only good for the lostest cost travel, individuals without packages to set locations near stops. They are not good for Doctors appointments, shopping or traveling with children.  They are terrible in the snow, and are hard to navigate or to stand  or sit.  And to make it even worst, some idiots have decided to put a staircase in the middle of the new buses, making them even more dangerous and claustophic to use than ever. 

Forcing on a public that doesn't want it a scheme to expand service bus service, while reducing the transportaion choices they do want, is a stupid investment of limited mass transit dollar.

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13 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

Even for a low value tansit activity, just you and a backpack from Rockaway Parkway to the Brighton Line and back, buses are the worst way to move people and the most expensive.  Buses destroy the road, are the biggest cause of congrestion, lousy on fuel, require lots of bus drivers, are expensive to repair, need maintenmence of vending machings and signage and now shelters, cause pedestrain traffic and garbage and litter ... I mean they are just a loser.  Your kidneys get grinded from the potholes, you are assualted on them by people yelling on their cellphones, or blaring music.  They are hot and have limited ventalation.  Bigger buses are bigger losers.  If you put 40 people on a bus, they are trapped like animals and can't get off fast enough.  They are even a potential health hazzard because they contribute to the transmition of infectious disease.

Buses are only good for the lostest cost travel, individuals without packages to set locations near stops. They are not good for Doctors appointments, shopping or traveling with children.  They are terrible in the snow, and are hard to navigate or to stand  or sit.  And to make it even worst, some idiots have decided to put a staircase in the middle of the new buses, making them even more dangerous and claustophic to use than ever. 

Forcing on a public that doesn't want it a scheme to expand service bus service, while reducing the transportaion choices they do want, is a stupid investment of limited mass transit dollar.

I'm trying to not make assumptions but i'm getting a stay out of my neighborhood vibe from you and tbh its just sad how small minded that mentality is. Buses doesn't destroy roads. How can you say a bus that can carry well over 100 people which means 100 cars off the road destroy roads? To my understanding and especially in a populated dense city the ones who destroy roads, are the cause of congestion, lousy on fuel, and require lots of drivers are cars. Look at L.A. a city made for cars but yet they have one of the worst congestion in the world. And the fact they have the space for better bus service can tell you cars are the problem. Before anyone says i'm anti motorist i'm not but in a city like NYC were most people don't own cars I think investing in better public transit is the logical conclusion. 

"Your kidneys get grinded from the potholes, you are assualted on them by people yelling on their cellphones, or blaring music.  They are hot and have limited ventalation.  Bigger buses are bigger losers."

So you don't like public transit and thats fine but you're just nitpicking. 

"Buses are only good for the lostest cost travel, individuals without packages to set locations near stops. They are not good for Doctors appointments, shopping or traveling with children."

A lot of people in nyc rely on transit to get them to school, work, shop, go to appointments, and travel with their kids and especially those who can't afford a car. 

"They are terrible in the snow, and are hard to navigate or to stand  or sit."

So are personally vehicles.

"And to make it even worst, some idiots have decided to put a staircase in the middle of the new buses, making them even more dangerous and claustophic to use than ever."

Because low floor buses are easier for people who are disabled and or elderly, again nitpicking. 

"Forcing on a public that doesn't want it a scheme to expand service bus service, while reducing the transportaion choices they do want, is a stupid investment of limited mass transit dollar."

You're saying the B82 should be split, thats limiting transit options right there. Its not a stupid investment is making transit better. 

I swear the arrogance on this forum is astounding so many people like to dictate what transit service is better for who while those who propose it don't rely on it for their daily life. Hard to say many people on here like transit because a lot just want the MTA to go their own way. 

 

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36 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

 

Even for a low value tansit activity, just you and a backpack from Rockaway Parkway to the Brighton Line and back, buses are the worst way to move people and the most expensive.  Buses destroy the road, are the biggest cause of congrestion, lousy on fuel, require lots of bus drivers, are expensive to repair, need maintenmence of vending machings and signage and now shelters, cause pedestrain traffic and garbage and litter ... I mean they are just a loser.  Your kidneys get grinded from the potholes, you are assualted on them by people yelling on their cellphones, or blaring music.  They are hot and have limited ventalation.  Bigger buses are bigger losers.  If you put 40 people on a bus, they are trapped like animals and can't get off fast enough.  They are even a potential health hazzard because they contribute to the transmition of infectious disease.

Buses are only good for the lostest cost travel, individuals without packages to set locations near stops. They are not good for Doctors appointments, shopping or traveling with children.  They are terrible in the snow, and are hard to navigate or to stand  or sit.  And to make it even worst, some idiots have decided to put a staircase in the middle of the new buses, making them even more dangerous and claustophic to use than ever. 

Forcing on a public that doesn't want it a scheme to expand service bus service, while reducing the transportaion choices they do want, is a stupid investment of limited mass transit dollar.

So what should we do instead? Build subway lines everywhere on every corridor or have everyone drive? It's rather prevalent you have a bias against buses and would rather have people drive and take the subway only. Plenty of statements here are wrong:

-Trucks are heavier than buses and cause more damage, and potholes and be caused by weather too. 

-Single-occupancy vehicles and the greatest congestion causers as they take up half the space of a bus and a third of a truck but only transport one person.

-Everything requires maintenance. 

-You can still hit potholes while driving. You can still be yelled at or assaulted on the street.

-A/C can be broken anywhere, and if you have a hot bus, go take the next one if it bothers you.

-You say that people are trapped on buses. Most people don't take buses because they are trapped, but they take them as they are convenient. You clearly have a fear of crowds.

-Health hazard? FYI you can get sick anywhere in public. If I had that mentality I would stay at home locked inside with gas mask on 24/7.

Plenty of people want better bus service, and driving a car everywhere isn't the best way of transit when parking is scarce. Fewer are people are riding buses because management has been running them poorly, not because riders hate the concept. Your mentality of buses comes from a place where they only exist for people to poor to own cars, or it came straight out of DeBlasio's ass. Subways are expensive and we can't build them everywhere.

You should also work on spelling.

Edited by R68OnBroadway
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3 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

So what should we do instead? Build subway lines everywhere on every corridor or have everyone drive?

First, we don't need mass transit on every corridor.  Secondly, the subway needs a major expansion and has needed it for a long time, but that is another discussion for another thread.  Everyone driving is a good choice, especially with the coming transportation revolution with driverless cars, and AI.  Uber is eating the MTA's lunch and that is only a minor transportation improvement compared to what is coming over the next ten years.

Buses, not cars, is the biggest cause of congestion.  I single bus with 40 people on it (which is a disaster for those 40 people), will block and slowdown 2000 cars trying to get around it.

 

Buses should be reserved as the last choice, and they are good only for low cost travel (individuals being transported on limited routes without substantial freight and which can afford a long time to finish a trip).

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30 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

I'm trying to not make assumptions but i'm getting a stay out of my neighborhood vibe from you

that is not me, it is a pothole.

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Just now, mrbrklyn said:

First, we don't need mass transit on every corridor.  Secondly, the subway needs a major expansion and has needed it for a long time, but that is another discussion for another thread.  Everyone driving is a good choice, especially with the coming transportation revolution with driverless cars, and AI.  Uber is eating the MTA's lunch and that is only a minor transportation improvement compared to what is coming over the next ten years.

Buses, not cars, is the biggest cause of congestion.  I single bus with 40 people on it (which is a disaster for those 40 people), will block and slowdown 2000 cars trying to get around it.

 

Buses should be reserved as the last choice, and they are good only for low cost travel (individuals being transported on limited routes without substantial freight and which can afford a long time to finish a trip).

Uber isn't fixing congestion. You are just putting you fumes in another car, and the driver isn't going where you are. Self-driving cars will cut down on accidents but not congestion, and it doesn't take a genius to realize this. 2000 people in cars can be put in 50 buses, and that is a great reduction in congestion and wasted road space. You clearly don't understand the traffic benefits of having people in buses vs cars and came from a place where everyone drives or rides commuter rail and you just want the buses to "get out of your way". 

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42 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

What I said was correct and verrified by the MTA itself.  All buses that service the area make up on 8% of the traffic in the district.  That is the definition of a small minority.  92%, which is everyone else, that is called an overwhelming majority.   If 8% represents thousand s of people than 92% represents 100's of thousands of people.

It is a question that congestion on Kings Highway is indeed a problem at all.  We want traffic in our business district.  We want the cars, that the subway trains, and we even reluctantly accept buses.  But lets face the facts, this B82 has been a drag on the economy since it was created.  It is slow.  It gums up a vital truck route, and it uses valable roadway and parking areas, and obstructs pedetrain traffic with the needless bus stands.  On Avenue J they addressed this by just removing some of the bus stops.

The same should be done on Kings Highway.  The bus can be divided and detoured up Avenue P - down East 16th Street, and to the large train entrance along with the B2, B31, and B100 and then sent back to Canarsie through Quentin or Avenue S.

The western side should end on Coney Island Avenue.  This will free up the street for the truck traffic and pedestrains.

It would also be smart to make Avenue P the truck route.  But they need to either raise the train or drop the road about 6inches to a foot more because the tractor trailers always small against the subway overpass.  It is a worthwhile investment, I believe.  A future consideration is to build a bus station on East 16th, with public parking.

Even for a low value tansit activity, just you and a backpack from Rockaway Parkway to the Brighton Line and back, buses are the worst way to move people and the most expensive.  Buses destroy the road, are the biggest cause of congrestion, lousy on fuel, require lots of bus drivers, are expensive to repair, need maintenmence of vending machings and signage and now shelters, cause pedestrain traffic and garbage and litter ... I mean they are just a loser.  Your kidneys get grinded from the potholes, you are assualted on them by people yelling on their cellphones, or blaring music.  They are hot and have limited ventalation.  Bigger buses are bigger losers.  If you put 40 people on a bus, they are trapped like animals and can't get off fast enough.  They are even a potential health hazzard because they contribute to the transmition of infectious disease.

Buses are only good for the lostest cost travel, individuals without packages to set locations near stops. They are not good for Doctors appointments, shopping or traveling with children.  They are terrible in the snow, and are hard to navigate or to stand  or sit.  And to make it even worst, some idiots have decided to put a staircase in the middle of the new buses, making them even more dangerous and claustophic to use than ever. 

Forcing on a public that doesn't want it a scheme to expand service bus service, while reducing the transportaion choices they do want, is a stupid investment of limited mass transit dollar.

You sound like a hipster- one who opposes to projects that "harms" others but in reality are good for transportation/expansion.  

Like seriously, these ad nauseam reasons are why we're involved in heated battle over restoring train service on the RBB. 

Most of your nasty reasons about why the B82 SBS is not feasible are just from sicknesses, pollution, and where you're going to go. You don't bring up actual stats, ridership levels, etc. Like, just go to your local doctor and get a vaccine if you don't wanna be infected. Secondly, buses are not Uber nor limousines. That's like saying we should extend the (A) to Reeds Lane so I don't have to take the bus or walk. You have to deal with weather, sicknesses, traffic, walking, and pollution at times because that's how life works. 

FYI, buses are everywhere in the city, and yet they still run today despite your hypocritical claim that they cause congestion or whatever. They would've stopped running a long time ago if that were the case, but they're still here. 

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31 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

A lot of people in nyc rely on transit to get them to school, work, shop, go to appointments, and travel with their kids and especially those who can't afford a car. 

no.... they really don't.  Families with children and no cars are badly handicapped and if they have money they use car service a lot.

 

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2 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Uber isn't fixing congestion.

The do a better job than the MTA, or the DOT for that matter.  Without Uber, people would drive.

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Just now, mrbrklyn said:

no.... they really don't.  Families with children and no cars are badly handicapped and if they have money they use car service a lot.

 

So now you have the mentality that every family needs and must have a car. When I grew up in NY I took the bus and subway everywhere and my parents only drove when we carried large items and had to go upstate. You sound like someone from Nassau and not NYC.

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4 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Uber isn't fixing congestion.

BTW - it is not the MTA's job to fix congestion.  It is to offer an inexpensive means of transportation for low cost transport (trips for individuals without a large amount of packages to set routes).  It is not a replacement for cars or taxis that have a whole other purpose.

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10 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

First, we don't need mass transit on every corridor.  Secondly, the subway needs a major expansion and has needed it for a long time, but that is another discussion for another thread.  Everyone driving is a good choice, especially with the coming transportation revolution with driverless cars, and AI.  Uber is eating the MTA's lunch and that is only a minor transportation improvement compared to what is coming over the next ten years.

Buses, not cars, is the biggest cause of congestion.  I single bus with 40 people on it (which is a disaster for those 40 people), will block and slowdown 2000 cars trying to get around it.

 

Buses should be reserved as the last choice, and they are good only for low cost travel (individuals being transported on limited routes without substantial freight and which can afford a long time to finish a trip).

Wow do you even hear or read yourself? Everyone driving isn’t a good choice and I don’t even know why you think that. More cars equals more congestion hello L.A. shows that. Uber and those other ride hailing companies provides just as much congestion as a personal vehicle. 

Buses are low cost compared to subways but they transport way more people than any car could. 

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2 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

You sound like someone from Nassau and not NYC.

That is biasness on your part.  Please refrain from personal attacks.

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2 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

The do a better job than the MTA, or the DOT for that matter.  Without Uber, people would drive.

We should focus on improving bus service as it has the potential to remove more cars from the road then Uber does. Who's transit advice did you listen to, Elon Musk? The guy knows space but has no clue other than "I must drive and nothing else" when it comes to transit.

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4 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

So now you have the mentality

I don't have a mentality.  Please refrain from personal attacks.

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7 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

no.... they really don't.  Families with children and no cars are badly handicapped and if they have money they use car service a lot.

 

A lot these hipsters and yuppies moving in came from car owned places but gave up their car when they came here. A lot of them are well off but they don’t drive much so what are you saying? Not all people with families have cars. 

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3 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

That is biasness on your part.  Please refrain from personal attacks.

If that offends you, what I mean is that you view buses as what many people in suburbs view it as-useless.

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1 minute ago, R68OnBroadway said:

We should focus on improving bus service

That depends on what you mean by improving serivce.  We should work on eliminating buses where ever possible.  Those that are needed we should run as efficiently as possible.  People don't want buses, and use them as a last resort.   Buses were forced on us as a city when they replaced trolleys.  We should not be carving out exclussive bus zones on our streets and sidewalks for buses because bus riders are a minority interest on NYC roads, especially on Kings Highway.  Buses should mostly be used to supliment the more comfortable and efficient rail system.

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2 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

If that offends you

it offends me because it is offensive and it is a common practice in these discussions designed to obfucate the facts.

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9 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

A lot these hipsters and yuppies moving in came from car owned places but gave up their car when they came here. A lot of them are well off but they don’t drive much so what are you saying? Not all people with families have cars.  

If you want to believe that, you can, but it has no baisis in reality.  A car is an essential tool for anyone with a family, esepcially a large family.  It is very weird to even debate this because it is sooo obvious and ubiquous. 

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3 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

That depends on what you mean by improving serivce.  We should work on eliminating buses where ever possible.  Those that are needed we should run as efficiently as possible.  People don't want buses, and use them as a last resort.   Buses were forced on us as a city when they replaced trolleys.  We should not be carving out exclussive bus zones on our streets and sidewalks for buses because bus riders are a minority interest on NYC roads, especially on Kings Highway.  Buses should mostly be used to supliment the more comfortable and efficient rail system.

We need better and more efficient bus service citywide. There are plenty of people out there who want better bus service and need it as it isn't practical to build subway lines under every major street. The only things that should be eliminated are portions of overly-long routes in Manhattan.

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24 minutes ago, Coney Island Av said:

You sound like a hipster-

Your not listening then, and your formulating conclusions based on your biases and bigotry.

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Just now, R68OnBroadway said:

We need better and more efficient bus service citywide.

it is not really so important and it is not a major priority.

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