SBS B82 just undoable

[Mysterious2train]

1 minute ago, mrbrklyn said:

If you want to believe that, you can, but it has no baisis in reality.  A car is an essential tool for anyone with a family, esepcially a large family.  It is very weird to even debate this because it is sooo obvious and ubiquous. 

It's not obvious and ubiquitous because less than half of all households in NYC (around 44%) own a car. Somehow a majority of households here make it without a car. If we think traffic and parking is bad now, I really don't want to see what it would be like if every family had a car.

Also we already have a thread about Select Bus Service and a thread specifically about Select Bus Service on the B82. But sure, let's have yet another thread...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mrbrklyn]

Just now, mrbrklyn said:

 

We need better and more efficient bus service citywide.

what does that have to do with the SBS B82 sepcifically?

[mrbrklyn]

1 minute ago, Mysterious2train said:

It's not obvious and ubiquitous because less than half of all households in NYC

That is misleading and off topic.  I suggest you start a thread on that topic if you want to discuss that.

[aemoreira81]

A few thoughts on this:

1. I don't see a dedicated bus late needed anywhere except along Pennsylvania Avenue and the short stretch on Glenwood Road. Two lanes of traffic each way absolutely are needed along Flatlands Avenue and Kings Highway.

2. Serious consideration to a one-way pair of traffic should be considered, along with adding a bridge along Quentin Road over the Sea Beach line. Kings Highway and Quentin Road could then become a one-way pair between East 13 Street and West 9 Street, with Kings Highway carrying only eastbound traffic. As it is now, I would propose making Kings Highway a one-way eastbound from McDonald Avenue to East 13 Street, and then from East 16 Street to its merger with Avenue P. Quentin Road would be one-way from East 13 Street to McDonald Avenue.

3. As for Avenue P...I would propose a traffic reconfiguration from East 15 Street to halfway between East 17 and East 18 Streets, where parking is eliminated on both sides and traffic shifted closer to the curb to allow for a dedicated turn lane between East 16 and East 17 Streets for the entire block to turn southbound onto East 16 with parking restricted along the curb side of East 16 Street. The lost spaces would be restored by introducing angled parking along the wider East 17 Street between Quentin Road and Avenue P, as well as by the conversion of Kings Highway to one-way traffic. (The B100 would be rerouted to share a terminal near the B2 and B31, avoiding Kings Highway altogether where it has no stops.)

4. East 14 Street between Avenue P and Kings Highway would return to southbound traffic (currently, this block carries northbound traffic). Traffic on East 16 Street north of Avenue P would not be permitted to cross Avenue P and instead be directed westbound only and instead be redirected to use East 14 Street. This would allow for traffic on Avenue P to turn left onto East 16 Street on a red signal.

5. In Canarsie, East 96 Street between Flatlands Avenue and Avenue J would be changed to southbound to allow left turns with the red light onto East 96 Street.

6. Even though it would mean missing the , I would propose having the B82 SBS run along Avenue P west of Coney Island Avenue to serve that business district, with new stops at East 5 Street, McDonald Avenue, West 6 Street, West 10 Street, and Stillwell Avenue (with the next stop as 86 Street---westbound, reverse for eastbound).

A major benefit in Midwood is that with 2 lanes of thru traffic along much of Kings Highway in one direction only, traffic flow would improve greatly there. The exception is East 13 to East 16, necessary to make a connection with the and .

[mrbrklyn]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious2train said:

lso we already have a thread about Select Bus Service and a thread specifically about Select Bus Service on the B82. But sure, let's have yet another thread..

Those are both over a year old.

[R68OnBroadway]

2 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

it is not really so important and it is not a major priority.

How is it not? Bus ridership fell by 20% in the past 15 years, and congestion has increased. Our subway system has terrible accessibility and thanks to overly-powerful unions it takes a ton of time to build anything. We need bus service not only until subways can reach certain areas, but also because it can be a reasonable alternative to other areas versus expensive commuter rail. Ask most New Yorkers about bus service quality and they will tell you it needs to be improved.

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, mrbrklyn said:

What I said was correct and verrified by the MTA itself.  All buses that service the area make up on 8% of the traffic in the district.  That is the definition of a small minority.  92%, which is everyone else, that is called an overwhelming majority.   If 8% represents thousand s of people than 92% represents 100's of thousands of people.

It is a question that congestion on Kings Highway is indeed a problem at all.  We want traffic in our business district.  We want the cars, that the subway trains, and we even reluctantly accept buses.  But lets face the facts, this B82 has been a drag on the economy since it was created.  It is slow.  It gums up a vital truck route, and it uses valable roadway and parking areas, and obstructs pedetrain traffic with the needless bus stands.  On Avenue J they addressed this by just removing some of the bus stops.

The same should be done on Kings Highway.  The bus can be divided and detoured up Avenue P - down East 16th Street, and to the large train entrance along with the B2, B31, and B100 and then sent back to Canarsie through Quentin or Avenue S.

The western side should end on Coney Island Avenue.  This will free up the street for the truck traffic and pedestrains.

It would also be smart to make Avenue P the truck route.  But they need to either raise the train or drop the road about 6inches to a foot more because the tractor trailers always small against the subway overpass.  It is a worthwhile investment, I believe.  A future consideration is to build a bus station on East 16th, with public parking.

Even for a low value tansit activity, just you and a backpack from Rockaway Parkway to the Brighton Line and back, buses are the worst way to move people and the most expensive.  Buses destroy the road, are the biggest cause of congrestion, lousy on fuel, require lots of bus drivers, are expensive to repair, need maintenmence of vending machings and signage and now shelters, cause pedestrain traffic and garbage and litter ... I mean they are just a loser.  Your kidneys get grinded from the potholes, you are assualted on them by people yelling on their cellphones, or blaring music.  They are hot and have limited ventalation.  Bigger buses are bigger losers.  If you put 40 people on a bus, they are trapped like animals and can't get off fast enough.  They are even a potential health hazzard because they contribute to the transmition of infectious disease.

Buses are only good for the lostest cost travel, individuals without packages to set locations near stops. They are not good for Doctors appointments, shopping or traveling with children.  They are terrible in the snow, and are hard to navigate or to stand  or sit.  And to make it even worst, some idiots have decided to put a staircase in the middle of the new buses, making them even more dangerous and claustophic to use than ever. 

Forcing on a public that doesn't want it a scheme to expand service bus service, while reducing the transportaion choices they do want, is a stupid investment of limited mass transit dollar.

OK, first off, yes. The subway does need an expansion. However, many if the statements you made here in this quote are not true as I ride the buses on occasions.

1. ASSULT CAN HAPPEN ANYWHERE AND IS NOT LIMITED ONLY TO BUSES. People blast music in their cars, in their homes. there's no escape.

2. The ventilation issue can be improved on. If the can have Air Conditioning in subways, then they can DEFINITELY install them on Buses

3. Removing buses isn't going to improve congestion. Have you ever stepped foot in Manhattan Before?? I remember this one time where my parents were driving to Philidelphia after they picked me up from school for a weekend. It took us 3 HOURS, just to get our car to get inside the Holland Tunnel, and there were only Luxury buses around the area at the time

4. NO MATTER WHAT, BUSES HAVE HIGHER CAPACITY THAN ANY CAR OR LIMOSINE COULD EVER ACHIVE!!!!!!

5. I've taken the bus to the dentist and I've been on time, so that's just another excuse.

51 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

First, we don't need mass transit on every corridor.  Secondly, the subway needs a major expansion and has needed it for a long time, but that is another discussion for another thread.  Everyone driving is a good choice, especially with the coming transportation revolution with driverless cars, and AI.  Uber is eating the MTA's lunch and that is only a minor transportation improvement compared to what is coming over the next ten years.

Buses, not cars, is the biggest cause of congestion.  I single bus with 40 people on it (which is a disaster for those 40 people), will block and slowdown 2000 cars trying to get around it.

 

Buses should be reserved as the last choice, and they are good only for low cost travel (individuals being transported on limited routes without substantial freight and which can afford a long time to finish a trip).

1. Why do we need Mass transit on every corridor. Certain corridors are just residential streets and are a goo walkable distance to a bus.

2. I'VE SAID IT, @R68OnBroadway SAID IT. OTHER PEOPLE SAID IT. CARS, UBERS, ETC. DO NOT RELIEVE CONGESTION ON OUR STREETS. BUSES CAN HANDLE WAY MORE CAPACITY THAN ANY CAR IS CAPABLE OF

 3. You're forgetting that buses are good alternatives to when a certain subway corridor shuts down. I've taken the shuttle bus for the Astoria Line and it was pretty convenient.

4. All statements in Blue are false. 

5. WE ARE NOT IN THE SUBURBS!!!!!

43 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

no.... they really don't.  Families with children and no cars are badly handicapped and if they have money they use car service a lot.

 

No...... Just no. My mom owns a car, but that doesn't mean she uses it 24/7. My dad takes the Q60 to work when the subway is delayed. they're convenient Alternatives. Yes the wait time is crap but my statement still stands

41 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

The do a better job than the MTA, or the DOT for that matter.  Without Uber, people would drive.

UBER AND LYFT SERVICES ARE THE PRIMARY REASON AS TO WHY WE HAVE SO MUCH CONGESTION IN OUR STREETS, ESPECIALLY IN MANHATTAN. IT'S QUITE EVIDENT THAT YOU NEVER TAKEN A BUS BEFORE 

[mrbrklyn]

2 minutes ago, aemoreira81 said:

A few thoughts on this:

1. I don't see a dedicated bus late needed anywhere except along Pennsylvania Avenue and the short stretch on Glenwood Road. Two lanes of traffic each way absolutely are needed along Flatlands Avenue and Kings Highway.

2. Serious consideration to a one-way pair of traffic should be considered, along with adding a bridge along Quentin Road over the Sea Beach line. Kings Highway and Quentin Road could then become a one-way pair between East 13 Street and West 9 Street, with Kings Highway carrying only westbound traffic. As it is now, I would propose making Kings Highway a one-way eastbound from McDonald Avenue to East 13 Street, and then from East 16 Street to its merger with Avenue P. Quentin Road would be one-way from East 13 Street to McDonald Avenue.

3. As for Avenue P...I would propose a traffic reconfiguration from East 15 Street to halfway between East 17 and East 18 Streets, where parking is eliminated on both sides and traffic shifted closer to the curb to allow for a dedicated turn lane between East 16 and East 17 Streets for the entire block to turn southbound onto East 16 with parking restricted along the curb side of East 16 Street. The lost spaces would be restored by introducing angled parking along the wider East 17 Street between Quentin Road and Avenue P, as well as by the conversion of Kings Highway to one-way traffic. (The B100 would be rerouted to share a terminal near the B2 and B31, avoiding Kings Highway altogether where it has no stops.)

4. East 14 Street between Avenue P and Kings Highway would return to southbound traffic (currently, this block carries northbound traffic). Traffic on East 16 Street north of Avenue P would not be permitted to cross Avenue P and instead be directed westbound only and instead be redirected to use East 14 Street. This would allow for traffic on Avenue P to turn left onto East 16 Street on a red signal.

5. In Canarsie, East 96 Street between Flatlands Avenue and Avenue J would be changed to southbound to allow left turns with the red light onto East 96 Street.

6. Even though it would mean missing the , I would propose having the B82 SBS run along Avenue P west of Coney Island Avenue to serve that business district, with new stops at East 5 Street, McDonald Avenue, West 6 Street, West 10 Street, and Stillwell Avenue (with the next stop as 86 Street---westbound, reverse for eastbound).

I'm IMPRESSED!  That is a lot of well thought and informed opinion.  I disagree with removing the parking from Avenue P however, unless something is done to return the metered parking that was removed to build TJ Max.  There has been a building boom in the area in condos and even though most of these facilities have parking buit within, the squeeze has still been too much for the local community from Avenue N to Avenue S.  They need the parking back that was lost.  The SBS plan, BTW, includes a change to East 12th Street that is likewise very damaging to the community.  I think there might be a good use for an express service in the south.  I've always thought that, but this is not really the south of Brooklyn.  It is more like central Brooklyn and it does nothing to solve the tranportation problem from Starret City to Bay Ridge.  If I was going to build something, like with a magic crayon, it would be an elevated  rail service that does Far Rockaway, JFK, the Canarise Pier, Kings Plaza, Emmons Avenue,  Coney Island, Cesars Bazzar, The VZB/Ft Hamilton, 50th Street and 1st Avenue, Red Hook and Governouers Island.  At Governours Island split into two Manhattan Island routes, The Battery, Javitz Center to 42nd Steet on the west side, and Water and Wall, 14th Street, UN Plaza and the Hositals on the East side.

 

 

[Brillant93]

36 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

That depends on what you mean by improving serivce.  We should work on eliminating buses where ever possible.  Those that are needed we should run as efficiently as possible.  People don't want buses, and use them as a last resort.   Buses were forced on us as a city when they replaced trolleys.  We should not be carving out exclussive bus zones on our streets and sidewalks for buses because bus riders are a minority interest on NYC roads, especially on Kings Highway.  Buses should mostly be used to supliment the more comfortable and efficient rail system.

"We should work on eliminating buses where ever possible" 

"People don't want buses, and use them as a last resort."

Do you even hear yourself? 

"Buses were forced on us as a city when they replaced trolleys."

Most of our bus routes follow their old trolley route so nothing really changed. What was there in the past is here now. 

"We should not be carving out exclussive bus zones on our streets and sidewalks for buses because bus riders are a minority interest on NYC roads, especially on Kings Highway."

Yes we should if a bus transporting more people than a car is stuck or delayed due to people congesting the corridor. 

"Buses should mostly be used to supliment the more comfortable and efficient rail system."

No buses should be used to transport people not supplement.  

 

43 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

We should focus on improving bus service as it has the potential to remove more cars from the road then Uber does. Who's transit advice did you listen to, Elon Musk? The guy knows space but has no clue other than "I must drive and nothing else" when it comes to transit.

The thing is that in American society everyone thinks they're entitled to a car. I could understand in places like rural or suburban places but dense cities should prioritize cars. More people can be transported via subways, commuter rail, and buses than cars. If over eight million people in nyc had cars we would be f**ked to hell. The issue is that we have the suburban nimbys who live in these dense areas who like to think we live in Long island, staten island, or jersey. We don't. We can afford more congestion. More cars equate that and also Elon Musk need to not give his opinion on public transit because he knows nothing of it. 

[mrbrklyn]

2 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Most of our bus routes follow their old trolley route so nothing really changed. What was there in the past is here now. 

yeah what changed was the economic and convient use of trolls that ran on a rail designed for that prupose.

[mrbrklyn]

18 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

How is it not? Bus ridership fell by 20% in the past 15 years

which only proves that the buses are not a high prioirty for anyone other than the MTA guys who work at 2 Broadway and oversee buses.  Without buses and a bus crisis, they are out of work and that would be good for us but a crisis for them.

[Brillant93]

1 minute ago, mrbrklyn said:

yeah what changed was the economic and convient use of trolls that ran on a rail designed for that prupose.

A lot of what used to be in NYC transit wise wasn't smart to get rid of. The EL train wasn't smart by dismantling it. removing all trolleys wasn't smart, dismantling other rail services wasn't smart, decreasing rail freight wasn't smart but yet its what we have. So instead we need to modernized our network not get rid of it. 

[mrbrklyn]

9 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

NO MATTER WHAT, BUSES HAVE HIGHER CAPACITY THAN ANY CAR OR LIMOSINE COULD EVER ACHIVE!!!!!!

I can't see red and I can't read all caps, especially when the information is just wrong, biased, or otherwise a distortion of the facts... which in this case is true for all three.

[R68OnBroadway]

3 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

which only proves that the buses are not a high prioirty for anyone other than the MTA guys who work at 2 Broadway and oversee buses.  Without buses and a bus crisis, they are out of work and that would be good for us but a crisis for them.

People are taking fewer buses because they are unreliable and need to be fixed, not because people hate buses. If the buses were designed in a better way, more people would ride them. It's supply-demand, not people hating buses from the concept.

[mrbrklyn]

1 minute ago, Brillant93 said:

The EL train wasn't smart by dismantling it.

It is an interesting discussion but better for another thread.  Creating an SBS B82 is not modernisation of anything.  It is just an example of one constituency, a minor one at that, co-opting the rights of 7 others constituencies.   See http://www.brooklyn-living.com/b82_sbs_opposition.html for a broader discussion of this.

 

[LGA Link N Train]

30 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

If you want to believe that, you can, but it has no baisis in reality.  A car is an essential tool for anyone with a family, esepcially a large family.  It is very weird to even debate this because it is sooo obvious and ubiquous. 

I live in a family of 6. We only use a car if were late for something or were driving to Long Island, NJ , or anywhere where a train is not sutiable.

Other than that, We walk, take the bus or ride the subway. 

Let me reassure you. @R68OnBroadway, @Coney Island Av, @Brillant93, me, and a couple of other members all said that buses can carry way more people than cars

4 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

I can't see red and I can't read all caps, especially when the information is just wrong, biased, or otherwise a distortion of the facts... which in this case is true for all three.

How am I being biased when I'm saying all of this from my personal experiences? 

[mrbrklyn]

3 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

People are taking fewer buses because they are unreliable

You don't know that.  the MTA doesn't think that.  Generally when I looked at the overall data, that is not what we see.  What we see is a demographic change in different routes and an increase in the use of bicycles in younger communities and a shift to the use of Uber.  Essentially, given any reasonable choice at all, people would do anything but take a bus.  It has been like that for nearly a 100 years.

 

 

 

http://superunleaded.com/heres-17-reasons-why-buses-are-absolutely-rubbish/1919/

[LGA Link N Train]

2 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

You don't know that.  the MTA doesn't think that.  Generally when I looked at the overall data, that is not what we see.  What we see is a demographic change in different routes and an increase in the use of bicycles in younger communities and a shift to the use of Uber.  Essentially, given any reasonable choice at all, people would do anything but take a bus.  It has been like that for nearly a 100 years.

 

 

 

http://superunleaded.com/heres-17-reasons-why-buses-are-absolutely-rubbish/1919/

WE CAN IMPROVE ON THESE ISSUES, Here!! Binge on this

http://transitcenter.org/publications/turnaround-fixing-new-york-citys-buses/#introduction

[mrbrklyn]

1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

We need better and more efficient bus service citywide. There are plenty of people out there who want better bus service and need it as it isn't practical to build subway lines under every major street. The only things that should be eliminated are portions of overly-long routes in Manhattan.

We need better and more efficient automobile service citywide. There are plenty of people out there who want better automobile service and need it as it isn't practical to build subway lines under every major street. The only things that should be eliminated are portions of overly-long routes in Manhattan.

[mrbrklyn]

17 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

WE CAN IMPROVE ON THESE ISSUES, Here!! Binge on this

http://transitcenter.org/publications/turnaround-fixing-new-york-citys-buses/#introduction

it is really not a priority. 

[mrbrklyn]

Just now, mrbrklyn said:

it is really not a priority. 

and anything that involves obstructing cars in the outerboroughs is a non-starter.

[LGA Link N Train]

 

1 minute ago, mrbrklyn said:

It is really not a priority and anything that involves obstructing cars in the outerboroughs is a non-starter.

It is. RPA members. Andy Byford, who else?

They all said that if you want to improve subway service, bus service needs to be improved first. Therefore, it IS a priority

[mrbrklyn]

36 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

Let me reassure you. @R68OnBroadway, @Coney Island Av, @Brillant93, me, and a couple of other members all said that buses can carry way more people than cars

 

and it is not true, which is why people prefer and use cars.  And cars have the far greater capacity on the road than buses.  You would need to an idiot to take a bus with a family of 6 to say... E23nd and Avenue N to Kings Plaza to shop, or to Cerasars Bizzarre.  There are whole places that you simply wouldn't shop that might otherwise be useful life the Home Depot at Coney Island, and Jethro in Canarsie, Sears on Bedford Avenue, Staples on Coney Island Avenue etc etc.  Buses turn a 2 hour adventure into a who day affair, and there is not a darn thing you can do about it because that is how buses are.

 

If the B82, with its minor passenger capacity is allowed to gum up and destroy the normal usage of the Kings Highway business district then you will be screwing every resident who lives in that coridor for an inefficient and unwanted form of transportation and relatively speaking, nobody uses.  8% of a population doesn't justifying obliterating an entire middle class community just because it is in your way.  It doesn't justify the cost to every local truck driver who has to use that route by law, because it is the local truck route designeated as such by the City of New York.  It doesn't justify the missery to the local businesses that depend on families that drive and park.  It doesn't justify killing the subway drop and drive points that make transport at the subway station easier from Marine Park to Bensonhurst.  It doesn't justify killing the poor cab drivers in the taxi stands about the road.  It doesn't justify in inconviencing the local pedestrians who have to navigate up and down Kings Highway to get to schools or the train station with sideway obstructions.  And so on.  There are a lot of different constinuencies that depend on that business district, very few of which are passangers on the B82, let alone the B82 express.  Blocking off the street is a hazzard to anyone who is not a bus, which is nearly everyone, or 92+% of everyone.

 

[mrbrklyn]

26 minutes ago, LGA Link N train said:

 

It is. RPA members. Andy Byford, who else?

They all said that if you want to improve subway service, bus service needs to be improved first. Therefore, it IS a priority 

Well they are wrong.  And there is nothing they can say to make it right.

 

The SBS B82 will not stop the broken switch at Franklin Avenue.

Is will not get the homeless off the trains,  It will not remove the homeless who has taken permanent shelter on the E16th entrance.  It will not prevent car break downs and doors from from being broken by people holding the doors.  It will not get the garbage picked up at the stations or to control the rats.

Buses have zero impact on the subway except then they are being used because they closed down the line for some repairs ... again.

[LGA Link N Train]

3 minutes ago, mrbrklyn said:

You would need to an idiot to take a bus with a family of 6 to say... E23nd and Avenue N to Kings Plaza to shop, or to Cerasars Bizzarre.  There are whole places that you simply wouldn't shop that might otherwise be useful life the Home Depot at Coney Island, and Jethro in Canarsie, Sears on Bedford Avenue, Staples on Coney Island Avenue etc etc. 

Just to assure you, I live in Queens and never taken the B82 cause it's too far from me and even if the B82 is bad. The should improve on it. If this works with other bus routes, why won't it work for the B82?