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Union Tpke

Q22/Q35 Rockaways Open House

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http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/busplan_rockways_Q22Q35.htm

Please join the Metropolitan Transportation Authority for an open house to learn and ask questions about service changes to the Q22 including:

More frequent buses for customers east of Beach 116 St.

A travel path adjustment for the Q35 in the Rockaways.

Bus stop balancing for both routes.

Feel free to arrive anytime between 6:30 PM and 8:30 PM.

Date and Location

Wednesday, May 23, 2018
Rockaway YMCA
207 Beach 73 St
Arverne, NY 11692

Travel Information
By Subway: Beach 67 St 
By Bus: Q22, Q52 SBS

I wonder why they are starting with these routes.

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1 hour ago, Union Tpke said:

I wonder why they are starting with these routes.

The Rockaways is a relatively isolated section of the network, so it's probably the easiest to analyze. Rockaways customers are also not exactly pushovers (see: Ferry) and so this is pretty good trial ground for testing new approaches, I'd assume.

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I wonder what "adjusted" path could the Q35 take in the Rockaways? It seems like there will be more Q22 short trips to 116

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8 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

I wonder what "adjusted" path could the Q35 take in the Rockaways? It seems like there will be more Q22 short trips to 116

If it's like it was originally proposed, it is to rerouted the Q35 to Rocakway Beach Boulevard (like the current Q22) between Beach 116 Street and Beach 147 Street. 

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8 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

If it's like it was originally proposed, it is to reroute the Q35 to Rockaway Beach Boulevard (like the current Q22) between Beach 116 Street and Beach 147 Street. 

So Rockaway Beach would get a service increase. Interesting since that stretch west of 116 is residential. 

8 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

I imagine that the Q22 and Q35 get merged (which I highly doubt) or the Q35 would take the Q22 path to B 116 St.

That was the DOT plan years before the takeover. Glad it didn't go through

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1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

So Rockaway Beach would get a service increase. Interesting since that stretch west of 116 is residential. 

That was the DOT plan years before the takeover. Glad it didn't go through

This is no service increase. It is a cutback with the elimination of about 15 bus stops and fewer Q22s west of Beach 116 St. The next step would be to cutback the Q22 to B116 Street after ridership drops and they claim two routes are not needed along Rockaway Beach Boulevard. 

This is the trial run of the plan to "consolidate routes" and "increase efficiency and bus speeds" in the MTA's continuing attempt to destroy local bus service. 

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I find this very interesting. Anything the (MTA) changes does not touch gold..

I hope 2 things don't happen.. 

1) The Rockaways don't lose bus service on Rockaway Beach Blvd between B116th and Roxbury via Q22

2) Having the Q22 operate between Far Rockaway-Mott Ave to 116th and Q35 from 116th to Roxbury into Brooklyn.

.. And since the (MTA) is not in the business of creating new routes cutting service on existing routes is the way to go for them. SMDH.

 

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56 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

This is no service increase. It is a cutback with the elimination of about 15 bus stops and fewer Q22s west of Beach 116 St. The next step would be to cutback the Q22 to B116 Street after ridership drops and they claim two routes are not needed along Rockaway Beach Boulevard. 

This is the trial run of the plan to "consolidate routes" and "increase efficiency and bus speeds" in the MTA's continuing attempt to destroy local bus service. 

“More frequent buses for customers east of Beach 116 St.”

wheres the cut back? Every time the mta tries to do something you are always critical about something that has yet to happen. They could invent teleporting machines and you would be critical. You’re saying about that then cutting routes but that isn’t what is happening. People rely on the Q35 to get to Brooklyn and the city and the Q22 to get through far rockaway. Stop assuming the worst. 

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1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

This is no service increase. It is a cutback with the elimination of about 15 bus stops and fewer Q22s west of Beach 116 St. The next step would be to cutback the Q22 to B116 Street after ridership drops and they claim two routes are not needed along Rockaway Beach Boulevard. 

This is the trial run of the plan to "consolidate routes" and "increase efficiency and bus speeds" in the MTA's continuing attempt to destroy local bus service. 

Outside of the summer season, two (local) routes aren't needed west of B. 116th now.... The problem is the Q35, for whatever the reason{s}, run erratically,....

AFAIC, whether the Q35 runs on Newport or Rockaway Beach Blvd. en route to/from Brooklyn isn't of any major circumstance..... There are more riders from Brooklyn that are on EB Q22's west of B. 116th - due to the fact that the stop at the old health care center is an xfer point for those coming off the EB Q35...... The Q22 carries far too much air past B. 116th, otherwise...... But yet there are all these other routes in the system that are more utilized that they want to chip, chip, chip away at (service-wise).....

West of B. 116th really only needs one local route & the one express route.....

The stop consolidation part of this whole bit however, I find to be more concerning......

Edited by B35 via Church
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1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

“More frequent buses for customers east of Beach 116 St.”

wheres the cut back? Every time the mta tries to do something you are always critical about something that has yet to happen. They could invent teleporting machines and you would be critical. You’re saying about that then cutting routes but that isn’t what is happening. People rely on the Q35 to get to Brooklyn and the city and the Q22 to get through far rockaway. Stop assuming the worst. 

This is exactly how the MTA can get away with cutting service in general. They can say that, which might be true, but then what about west of Beach 116? They have made a proposal similar to this before. 

I'm not for or against these proposals, but you have to look at the bigger picture, just because it looks rosy. After years of scrappy service and slashing of bus service, I believe it's pretty normal to assume the worse.

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That's what I hate about the MTA.

 

They nickel-and-dime little shit like stops and an extra couple of runs on a bus line to save hundreds of thousands, but have no problem doling out billions upon billions to shitty contractors.

 

Different departments? Sure. But little crap like this that pisses me off.

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30 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

This is exactly how the MTA can get away with cutting service in general. They can say that, which might be true, but then what about west of Beach 116? They have made a proposal similar to this before. 

I'm not for or against these proposals, but you have to look at the bigger picture, just because it looks rosy. After years of scrappy service and slashing of bus service, I believe it's pretty normal to assume the worse.

I like to beg to differ. Right now we’re seeing the bus system see attention that it hasn’t got in decades. What’s the point of worry about service cuts when buses are rarely making it on time or close to? If certain bus routes have a high ridership on a certain end why should the mta not do anything about the customers being neglected? I don’t see anything about service cuts on here. Being skeptical isn’t always useful. Go to the workshops and outreach and voice your opinion and take in insight. We don’t know what’s going to happen yet. 

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1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

“More frequent buses for customers east of Beach 116 St.”

wheres the cut back? Every time the mta tries to do something you are always critical about something that has yet to happen. They could invent teleporting machines and you would be critical. You’re saying about that then cutting routes but that isn’t what is happening. People rely on the Q35 to get to Brooklyn and the city and the Q22 to get through far rockaway. Stop assuming the worst. 

There won't be more frequent bus service for customers east of Beach 116 Street. That's just what they want you to think. Even if they do not cut Q22 service initially, the more frequent headways would only apply to those getting on and off between the Marine Parkway Bridge and B116 Street. The vast majority of riders are not doing that. They are either coming from or going to Brooklyn on the Q35 or continuing on past 116 Street with the Q22, so the lower headway would not matter to them. 

This proposal was floated last September before Community Board 14 and was overwhelmingly rejected. 

The heart of this plan is the elimination of 14 Q22 bus stops in a community with a high presence of elderly residents who cannot walk to the bus. They are ignoring their own service guidelines by increasing the maximum walking distance to a bus stop from one-quarter mile to one half mile with this proposal. 

The will also be moving the Q35 to Rockaway Beach Blvd so they can eliminate service on Newport Avenue and turn most Q22s at B116 St. after ridership drops because residents will not be willing to walk a half mile to a bus, they will claim there us no reason for two routes on Rockaway Beach Blvd and will propose to cut the Q22 to B116 Street at all times making everyone who wants to go across the whole peninsula take two buses or three buses if coming from Breezy Point. 

Here is the story from the Rockaway Times from last October.

" A CB 14 member exploded, “With all the new housing and senior centers going up in Rockaway on both the east and west ends, how do you expect this to benefit the community? When you eliminate these Q22 stops, what about the handicapped people who need to get to the closest stop to get on the bus?”

One MTA representative responded, “Well, that’s why we have Access-A-Ride, to accommodate disabled people and seniors.”

Another CB 14 member exclaimed, “Access-A-Ride?! You guys are a joke. You’re talking about a car service that takes hours to arrive? Furthermore, the Q22 is already unreliable and always packed, especially during rush hours when the school children are packed on the bus. And you are telling us that the MTA is implementing this because of low ridership? Then you want to further congest Beach 116th Street with the Q35 bus? Tell me how three buses, especially in the summer time are going to function without causing a ruckus on an active commercial strip. You need to redirect your minds from your fancy guidelines based on your inefficient research studies. Take the damn bus yourself, and you’ll see the reality!” "

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17 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

There won't be more frequent bus service for customers east of Beach 116 Street. That's just what they want you to think. Even if they do not cut Q22 service initially, the more frequent headways would only apply to those getting on and off between the Marine Parkway Bridge and B116 Street. The vast majority of riders are not doing that. They are either coming from or going to Brooklyn on the Q35 or continuing on past 116 Street with the Q22, so the lower headway would not matter to them. 

This proposal was floated last September before Community Board 14 and was overwhelmingly rejected. 

The heart of this plan is the elimination of 14 Q22 bus stops in a community with a high presence of elderly residents who cannot walk to the bus. They are ignoring their own service guidelines by increasing the maximum walking distance to a bus stop from one-quarter mile to one half mile with this proposal. 

The will also be moving the Q35 to Rockaway Beach Blvd so they can eliminate service on Newport Avenue and turn most Q22s at B116 St. after ridership drops because residents will not be willing to walk a half mile to a bus, they will claim there us no reason for two routes on Rockaway Beach Blvd and will propose to cut the Q22 to B116 Street at all times making everyone who wants to go across the whole peninsula take two buses or three buses if coming from Breezy Point. 

Here is the story from the Rockaway Times from last October.

" A CB 14 member exploded, “With all the new housing and senior centers going up in Rockaway on both the east and west ends, how do you expect this to benefit the community? When you eliminate these Q22 stops, what about the handicapped people who need to get to the closest stop to get on the bus?”

One MTA representative responded, “Well, that’s why we have Access-A-Ride, to accommodate disabled people and seniors.”

Another CB 14 member exclaimed, “Access-A-Ride?! You guys are a joke. You’re talking about a car service that takes hours to arrive? Furthermore, the Q22 is already unreliable and always packed, especially during rush hours when the school children are packed on the bus. And you are telling us that the MTA is implementing this because of low ridership? Then you want to further congest Beach 116th Street with the Q35 bus? Tell me how three buses, especially in the summer time are going to function without causing a ruckus on an active commercial strip. You need to redirect your minds from your fancy guidelines based on your inefficient research studies. Take the damn bus yourself, and you’ll see the reality!” "

One you’re saying they would cut the bus service by having people take two buses to get across far rock. But then you’re saying most riders get off at the last stop on the Q35 to the Q22. So what is the fear of service cuts when you said most people get off at the last stop to transfer to another bus when the proposal would have most service to the eastern end in which most people take the Q22 to? Then you say when they get rid of stops they would cut the Q22 to Beach 116 due to ridership loss but in the quote you provided someone was against two buses being on the same avenue. So by the examples you gave me you would for these suspected “cuts” as they would give more direct service to those who would take the Q35 to the Q22 at Beach 116. 

See this is what I mean assuming the worst because I highly doubt this is going to do any harm. If most people on the western part aren’t taking the bus why should those who take it mostly have to deal with a schedule that is less frequent? 

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1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

One you’re saying they would cut the bus service by having people take two buses to get across far rock. But then you’re saying most riders get off at the last stop on the Q35 to the Q22. So what is the fear of service cuts when you said most people get off at the last stop to transfer to another bus when the proposal would have most service to the eastern end in which most people take the Q22 to? Then you say when they get rid of stops they would cut the Q22 to Beach 116 due to ridership loss but in the quote you provided someone was against two buses being on the same avenue. So by the examples you gave me you would for these suspected “cuts” as they would give more direct service to those who would take the Q35 to the Q22 at Beach 116. 

See this is what I mean assuming the worst because I highly doubt this is going to do any harm. If most people on the western part aren’t taking the bus why should those who take it mostly have to deal with a schedule that is less frequent? 

I think you are a little confused. 

I said they will eventually turn all Q22s at B116 Street instead of having the route continue to Roxbury, so some Q22 passengers will need two buses. That would be service cut. Even if they just add more short turns B116 Street, some Q22 passengers will take a bus to B116 Street and change for the Q35 instead of just taking one bus. 

I never said anything about most people getting off at the last stop to transfer to another bus. I do not know where you got that from. I said few would benefit from the combined headway if Q22 service is not reduced. But I expect it to be reduced just like what they did when they put the B67 and B69 on the same street. They cut B67 service in half and pretty much destroyed that bus route. I expect them to cut Q22 service in half, thereby not improving the headways at all. 

Like B35 via Church said, it's the elimination of bus stops that is more of a concern than moving both routes to Rockaway Beach Boulevard. The result is an increased walking distance to the closest bus stop from a quarter mile to a half mile for those living near Beach Channel Drive. There is no way this cannot be considered a service cut. They will never call it that. As you should be able to see, they are trying to disguise this cut as an improvement by using words like consolidation and efficiency. Walking further and giving to take the extra buses are never improvements. They will also not tell you that they will be running fewer Q22s. They figure since they extended the Q52 last year, its time for Rockaway to pay for that. 

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1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

I think you are a little confused. 

I said they will eventually turn all Q22s at B116 Street instead of having the route continue to Roxbury, so some Q22 passengers will need two buses. That would be service cut. Even if they just add more short turns B116 Street, some Q22 passengers will take a bus to B116 Street and change for the Q35 instead of just taking one bus. 

I never said anything about most people getting off at the last stop to transfer to another bus. I do not know where you got that from. I said few would benefit from the combined headway if Q22 service is not reduced. But I expect it to be reduced just like what they did when they put the B67 and B69 on the same street. They cut B67 service in half and pretty much destroyed that bus route. I expect them to cut Q22 service in half, thereby not improving the headways at all. 

Like B35 via Church said, it's the elimination of bus stops that is more of a concern than moving both routes to Rockaway Beach Boulevard. The result is an increased walking distance to the closest bus stop from a quarter mile to a half mile for those living near Beach Channel Drive. There is no way this cannot be considered a service cut. They will never call it that. As you should be able to see, they are trying to disguise this cut as an improvement by using words like consolidation and efficiency. Walking further and giving to take the extra buses are never improvements. They will also not tell you that they will be running fewer Q22s. They figure since they extended the Q52 last year, its time for Rockaway to pay for that. 

“the more frequent headways would only apply to those getting on and off between the Marine Parkway Bridge and B116 Street.”

the proposal said east of b116 would see service increase not west and that’s Marine parkway bridge to B116 you mentioned. 

“The vast majority of riders are not doing that. They are either coming from or going to Brooklyn on the Q35 or continuing on past 116 Street with the Q22, so the lower headway would not matter to them. ”

“I said they will eventually turn all Q22s at B116 Street instead of having the route continue to Roxbury, so some Q22 passengers will need two buses. That would be service cut. Even if they just add more short turns B116 Street, some Q22 passengers will take a bus to B116 Street and change for the Q35 instead of just taking one bus.”

I would assume they would do a lot more short turns instead of cutting the entire route. You have to keep in mind it’s probably a route that would be needed for the summer crowd so cutting it won’t probsbly happen. Also if more people are transferring from the Q35 th Q22 would be a guaranteed contention. It wouldn’t probably benefit finacally wise when it’s not summer and those buses are almost half empty. If they can provide more service to where it’s mostly used it’s beneficial. I wouldn’t expect them to cut the Q22 in half. 

Also spacing out bus stops to half a mile Isn’t something I don’t think is a bad thing. If those stops are underutilized why keep them? Buses could probably speed up more so than stopping every quater mile. 

 

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5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

The will also be moving the Q35 to Rockaway Beach Blvd so they can eliminate service on Newport Avenue and turn most Q22s at B116 St. after ridership drops because residents will not be willing to walk a half mile to a bus, they will claim there us no reason for two routes on Rockaway Beach Blvd and will propose to cut the Q22 to B116 Street at all times making everyone who wants to go across the whole peninsula take two buses or three buses if coming from Breezy Point.

Wait....., The same Breezy Point residents that don't want public buses near their neighborhood? Those people......

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58 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Wait....., The same Breezy Point residents that don't want public buses near their neighborhood? Those people......

Yep. Those same people. So far they haven't complained that I know of and I don't blame you if you don't care about them. 

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1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

“the more frequent headways would only apply to those getting on and off between the Marine Parkway Bridge and B116 Street.”

the proposal said east of b116 would see service increase not west and that’s Marine parkway bridge to B116 you mentioned. 

“The vast majority of riders are not doing that. They are either coming from or going to Brooklyn on the Q35 or continuing on past 116 Street with the Q22, so the lower headway would not matter to them. ”

“I said they will eventually turn all Q22s at B116 Street instead of having the route continue to Roxbury, so some Q22 passengers will need two buses. That would be service cut. Even if they just add more short turns B116 Street, some Q22 passengers will take a bus to B116 Street and change for the Q35 instead of just taking one bus.”

I would assume they would do a lot more short turns instead of cutting the entire route. You have to keep in mind it’s probably a route that would be needed for the summer crowd so cutting it won’t probsbly happen. Also if more people are transferring from the Q35 th Q22 would be a guaranteed contention. It wouldn’t probably benefit finacally wise when it’s not summer and those buses are almost half empty. If they can provide more service to where it’s mostly used it’s beneficial. I wouldn’t expect them to cut the Q22 in half. 

Also spacing out bus stops to half a mile Isn’t something I don’t think is a bad thing. If those stops are underutilized why keep them? Buses could probably speed up more so than stopping every quater mile. 

 

You haven't dealt with the MTA for 40 years so you actually believe them because you don't know their agenda which is to cut service, not improve it to serve new neighborhoods. That's why they have remained silent on Park Slope's proposal to bring back the B71 in a new improved version. That's why I have been waiting nearly two years for them to analyze the B44 SBS proposal I gave them. 

Yes, they will increase service on the Q22 east of B116 Street but it won't last more than one or two picks. They will cut it back to what it is now claiming it wasn't utilized enough to warrant the additional service. 

That's what happened with the B44 local after they instituted SBS. There were routine complaints of 45 minute waits because they cut the local service. So three months later they added back some service in response to those complaints. But if you check now you will see that added service is now gone. 

So after an initial increase in service, the final result will be a cut. 

And I didn't say they were spacing the bus stops at every half mile. It's more like every quarter mile which is too much where you have a high elderly population. I said the maximum walk to a bus stop will be every half mile which is twice as much as their guidelines call for. 

I also stated that when bus stops are lightly utilized as is the case here,  no time is saved by eliminating those stops stops nice no bus makes all the stops anyway and probably now stops only every quarter mile anyway. The difference is that it now stops where the people need to get on and off, not three blocks away which will just reduce patronage and encourage more people to find other methods of travel. Trip times will also increase by up to 20 minutes if the extra walk causes you to just miss a bus you otherwise would have been able to board. 

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Wait....., The same Breezy Point residents that don't want public buses near their neighborhood? Those people......

Have they ever complained about bus service? They live in a private gated co-op, so I couldn't imagine them fawning over any local bus. I think they're content driving to the QM16 by Riis Park and going to Manhattan to work that way. The rest of them just drive.

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2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Have they ever complained about bus service? They live in a private gated co-op, so I couldn't imagine them fawning over any local bus. I think they're content driving to the QM16 by Riis Park and going to Manhattan to work that way. The rest of them just drive.

I believe they operate their own private bus service for residents only. Maybe they use it just to get to the QM 16. 

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12 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I believe they operate their own private bus service for residents only. Maybe they use it just to get to the QM 16. 

They likely do which makes sense.  There's nothing wrong with private communities. They exist throughout NYC for those who want to live in such environments. They pay for the upkeep and the services and thus are entitled to have them. As long as they aren't complaining, I see nothing wrong with it.  

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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58 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

You haven't dealt with the MTA for 40 years so you actually believe them because you don't know their agenda which is to cut service, not improve it to serve new neighborhoods. That's why they have remained silent on Park Slope's proposal to bring back the B71 in a new improved version. That's why I have been waiting nearly two years for them to analyze the B44 SBS proposal I gave them. 

Yes, they will increase service on the Q22 east of B116 Street but it won't last more than one or two picks. They will cut it back to what it is now claiming it wasn't utilized enough to warrant the additional service. 

That's what happened with the B44 local after they instituted SBS. There were routine complaints of 45 minute waits because they cut the local service. So three months later they added back some service in response to those complaints. But if you check now you will see that added service is now gone. 

So after an initial increase in service, the final result will be a cut. 

And I didn't say they were spacing the bus stops at every half mile. It's more like every quarter mile which is too much where you have a high elderly population. I said the maximum walk to a bus stop will be every half mile which is twice as much as their guidelines call for. 

I also stated that when bus stops are lightly utilized as is the case here,  no time is saved by eliminating those stops stops nice no bus makes all the stops anyway and probably now stops only every quarter mile anyway. The difference is that it now stops where the people need to get on and off, not three blocks away which will just reduce patronage and encourage more people to find other methods of travel. Trip times will also increase by up to 20 minutes if the extra walk causes you to just miss a bus you otherwise would have been able to board. 

So since I haven’t dealt with the mta for 40 years doesn’t mean that everything they say is some sort of conspiracy to cut service. If that were the case I’m sure the MTA wouldn’t exist by now. The reason why we have our crappy bus system is because it hasn’t changed with the city in the past 40 years. Just because you give proposals doesn’t mean it’s going to go your way. No disrespect but you aren’t everyone who takes the bus and you can’t in no way assume your ideas is what’s best for everyone. 

Of course local service to sbs is going to be cut because most of the riders are sbs or limited customers/passengers. If they ran several half empty local buses that would be money lost and money lost would mean more fare hikes. Bad enough we have corrupt unions, politicians, and contractors milking out projects. If frequencies need to be adjusted they need to focus on a reasonble times table for local service and I’m not saying 45 min is but I’m sure that time wasn’t the majority of service.  

With bus stops I don’t see how removing bus stops that are close to each other will encourage people to take other methods of transit. A bus stop that is a now a short block away from where the old one was isn’t going to magically make me want to take Uber. Hell I constantly walk an average 10 to 12 mintues to buses in my area and yes it’s pretty much under served here. About elderly people needing those stops you have to be sure where they are removing them.  

Edited by Brillant93
Needed to change something.

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42 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Have they ever complained about bus service? They live in a private gated co-op, so I couldn't imagine them fawning over any local bus. I think they're content driving to the QM16 by Riis Park and going to Manhattan to work that way. The rest of them just drive.

From a qualitative standpoint, not that I know of, no......

39 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I believe they operate their own private bus service for residents only. Maybe they use it just to get to the QM 16. 

Yeah, they still run private shuttles to/from B. 169th... Used to run mini-buses, but the last couple times I've taken the Q35 to/from B. 116th, I've been seeing vans over at B. 169th.....

27 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They likely do which makes sense.  There's nothing wrong with private communities. They exist throughout NYC for those who want to live in such environments. They pay for the upkeep and the services and thus are entitled to have them. As long as they aren't complaining, I see nothing wrong with it.  

Rest your head wherever you wish, I never cared about that, just like I'm not one for pocket-watching anybody...... I just don't want to hear about any of those residents' (or any hypotheticals that entail anything regarding a) possible worsened commute via public transportation....

No problem with them actually utilizing public transportation.... However, when that typical ride on that QM16 (for example) done got exacerbated by another 20-30 mins. for whatever reason, he/she is the last person I want to hear complaining about delays....

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