Q22/Q35 Rockaways Open House

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

So since I haven’t dealt with the mta for 40 years doesn’t mean that everything they say is some sort of conspiracy to cut service. If that were the case I’m sure the MTA wouldn’t exist by now. The reason why we have our crappy bus system is because it hasn’t changed with the city in the past 40 years. Just because you give proposals doesn’t mean it’s going to go your way. No disrespect but you aren’t everyone who takes the bus and you can’t in no way assume your ideas is what’s best for everyone. 

Of course local service to sbs is going to be cut because most of the riders are sbs or limited customers/passengers. If they ran several half empty local buses that would be money lost and money lost would mean more fare hikes. Bad enough we have corrupt unions, politicians, and contractors milking out projects. If frequencies need to be adjusted they need to focus on a reasonble times table for local service and I’m not saying 45 min is but I’m sure that time wasn’t the majority of service.  

With bus stops I don’t see how removing bus stops that are close to each other will encourage people to take other methods of transit. A bus stop that is a now a short block away from where the old one was isn’t going to magically make me want to take Uber. Hell I constantly walk an average 10 to 12 mintues to buses in my area and yes it’s pretty much under served here. About elderly people needing those stops you have to be sure where they are removing them.  

You say that there is no conspiracy to cut service? Well when was the last time bus routes were reorganized and I'm not talking about ridiculous 30 minute shuttles that very few find useful and use? Every time the MTA announces a change it is a cut in service. And I never said my ideas are best for everyone. I said the MTA is not willing to listen to anyone's ideas other than their own because of their arrogance that on,y they are competent enough to plan and they made that statement publicly. 

Did you know if you send in a route change proposal  via MTA e-mail, the standard response is either it will be forwarded to the proper department for evaluation and that is the last you will hear even if you send three or four follow-up e-mails. The other response is that they cannot evaluate suggestions from the public. 

Bus ridership is declining because the routes are not up to date and service reliability  sucks. 

And it is not true that most riders are Limited /SBS users. Those riders account for a small minority of local bus users. Some use SBS reluctantly just because it runs more frequently than the local service. 

They are talking about changing the bus stops from every other block to one stop every five blocks. They had listed which stops were going to be removed and it was about 15 stops. People do not want to walk a half mile to a local bus stop. That is why the guidelines call for a quarter mile walk. 

You blame everyone but the MTA. You don't think the MTA is corrupt? They lied about the causes of subway delays. They claimed to have fixed signals in the past and it was revealed that the inspections were never done and the paperwork was fraudulent. The MTA isn't as innocent as you make them out to be. 

You talk about running near empty local buses. What about running 60 foot buses which use more fuel and the drivers are paid more with under six passengers per bus 24 hours a day in both directions? I am talking about the B44 SBS south of Avenue X. I have a plan to fix that which would greatly increase the number of passengers but the MTA isn't interested. 

But why eliminate bus stops that benefit no one and only increases travel time? That is not how you attract passengers. 

[B35 via Church]

25 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

You blame everyone but the MTA. You don't think the MTA is corrupt? They lied about the causes of subway delays. They claimed to have fixed signals in the past and it was revealed that the inspections were never done and the paperwork was fraudulent. The MTA isn't as innocent as you make them out to be.

That's why I don't even bother with dude; yet another one of these MTA apologists....

Everything isn't conspiratorial, but just look around the city & analyze what's going on w/ the buses & trains...... Just what is the MTA doing (especially as of late) that I should be optimistic about... Brings up skeptics on here, but all his buckets of f***** positivity isn't accomplishing anything either.....

[Gotham Bus Co.]

9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

... in a community with a high presence of elderly residents.... 

Every community has "a high presence of elderly residents" — and several communities have claimed to have more elderly than any other. 

[JeremiahC99]

Wouldn’t a better plan for the Rockaways would be to extend the Q22 from Roxbury to Flatbush Avenue and make the same Q35 stops north of the bridge and eliminate the Q35 route? This was proposed by the NYCDOT Bus Analysis back in 2004, when the routes were still privately operated.

 

Also, as an alternative to elimating the Q35 entirely, it could be rerouted east to serve Knapp Street and Emmons Avenue and operate to Sheepshead Bay Station, and possibly to Coney Island Via Avenue Z. The B4 would be cutback to Sheepshead Bay Station. The Q35 would be renamed the Q35 LTD, and make Limited stops along the Q22 route to Far Rockaway

 

Either way, it looks better than an attempt to cut service in the Rockaways. This is REAL CHANGE.

[Q43LTD]

I would rather keep the Q22 and 35 separate. The Q35 has no business going to Sheepshead Bay or Coney Island. Well, we can forget about those Q52's going to Far Rockaway now

[BrooklynBus]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

That's why I don't even bother with dude; yet another one of these MTA apologists....

Everything isn't conspiratorial, but just look around the city & analyze what's going on w/ the buses & trains...... Just what is the MTA doing (especially as of late) that I should be optimistic about... Brings up skeptics on here, but all his buckets of f***** positivity isn't accomplishing anything either.....

Have you seen The NY Times article the other day how the subways have been deliberately slowed down and how that has caused the massive delays we have today that the MTA has blamed on overcrowding when in fact subway ridership has not been increasing? 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/09/nyregion/subway-crisis-mta-decisions-signals-rules.html

[checkmatechamp13]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

You say that there is no conspiracy to cut service? Well when was the last time bus routes were reorganized and I'm not talking about ridiculous 30 minute shuttles that very few find useful and use? Every time the MTA announces a change it is a cut in service.

1

The SI express redesign added $1 million worth of off-peak service, and (supposedly) they will add extra trips during rush hour with the money they saved from the shorter runtimes.

5 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

I would assume they would do a lot more short turns instead of cutting the entire route. You have to keep in mind it’s probably a route that would be needed for the summer crowd so cutting it won’t probsbly happen. Also if more people are transferring from the Q35 th Q22 would be a guaranteed contention. It wouldn’t probably benefit finacally wise when it’s not summer and those buses are almost half empty. If they can provide more service to where it’s mostly used it’s beneficial. I wouldn’t expect them to cut the Q22 in half. 

Also spacing out bus stops to half a mile Isn’t something I don’t think is a bad thing. If those stops are underutilized why keep them? Buses could probably speed up more so than stopping every quater mile. 

4

They could extend it summer-only. Not saying I agree or disagree with cutting it back to Beach 116th (I'd actually lean towards agreeing with it), but you could still cut service during the other seasons.

7 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I think you are a little confused. 

I said they will eventually turn all Q22s at B116 Street instead of having the route continue to Roxbury, so some Q22 passengers will need two buses. That would be service cut. Even if they just add more short turns B116 Street, some Q22 passengers will take a bus to B116 Street and change for the Q35 instead of just taking one bus. 

I never said anything about most people getting off at the last stop to transfer to another bus. I do not know where you got that from. I said few would benefit from the combined headway if Q22 service is not reduced. But I expect it to be reduced just like what they did when they put the B67 and B69 on the same street. They cut B67 service in half and pretty much destroyed that bus route. I expect them to cut Q22 service in half, thereby not improving the headways at all. 

Like B35 via Church said, it's the elimination of bus stops that is more of a concern than moving both routes to Rockaway Beach Boulevard. The result is an increased walking distance to the closest bus stop from a quarter mile to a half mile for those living near Beach Channel Drive. There is no way this cannot be considered a service cut. They will never call it that. As you should be able to see, they are trying to disguise this cut as an improvement by using words like consolidation and efficiency. Walking further and giving to take the extra buses are never improvements. They will also not tell you that they will be running fewer Q22s. They figure since they extended the Q52 last year, its time for Rockaway to pay for that. 

 

The only way for the stop spacing increase to add a quarter mile to the walking distance in and of itself (i.e. Ignoring the fact that buses won't be available on Newport) is if the stop spacing is every half mile. If that's the case, then that's rather unreasonable considering that the subway stop spacing is every half mile as well. If they're increasing the stop spacing to every quarter mile, then the average increase in the walking distance is 1/16 of a mile. (Remember that once you're on the street the bus runs down, in a worse-case scenario, you only have to walk half the stop spacing. So the bus stops every quarter mile, you only walk 1/8 of a mile).

Then you also have to consider that (assuming that the activity density is uniform around the route and ridership per stop is roughly the same) that if you eliminate half the stops, half of the riders are still unaffected. So the average walking distance increases by half the maximum walking distance. (Half the riders walk the maximum extra, and half continue to use their same stop). In practice, though, the ridership isn't evenly distributed, so the busiest stops usually get kept (for example, on Staten Island, they kept around half the stops, which served about 70% of existing riders). So the average additional walking distance decreases slightly (though the maximum remains the same)

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

I would rather keep the Q22 and 35 separate. The Q35 has no business going to Sheepshead Bay or Coney Island. Well, we can forget about those Q52's going to Far Rockaway now

If the Q22 and Q35 were combined, this would allow for a one seat ride between Brooklyn destinations like Kings Plaza and areas east of 116th Street, eliminating or reducing the need to transfer at Beach 169th Street. What’s wrong with that?

 

in addition, do you even realize that getting between Brooklyn and the Rockaways is very difficult by public transit. The only option is the Q35, which only goes to the IRT Nostrand Avenue services at Flatbush Avenue. Thus, if there were bus services going between the Rockaway Peninsula and the Brighton Line at Sheepshead Bay, then new connections would open up between those neighborhoods, a new corridor would be served (Knapp Street), an alternative subway line to the IRT can be utilized for travel to and from the peninsula can be used, and bus ridership would increase. This is the IMPROVED CONNECTIVITY we need.

[Brillant93]

5 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

You say that there is no conspiracy to cut service? Well when was the last time bus routes were reorganized and I'm not talking about ridiculous 30 minute shuttles that very few find useful and use? Every time the MTA announces a change it is a cut in service. And I never said my ideas are best for everyone. I said the MTA is not willing to listen to anyone's ideas other than their own because of their arrogance that on,y they are competent enough to plan and they made that statement publicly. 

Did you know if you send in a route change proposal  via MTA e-mail, the standard response is either it will be forwarded to the proper department for evaluation and that is the last you will hear even if you send three or four follow-up e-mails. The other response is that they cannot evaluate suggestions from the public. 

Bus ridership is declining because the routes are not up to date and service reliability  sucks. 

And it is not true that most riders are Limited /SBS users. Those riders account for a small minority of local bus users. Some use SBS reluctantly just because it runs more frequently than the local service. 

They are talking about changing the bus stops from every other block to one stop every five blocks. They had listed which stops were going to be removed and it was about 15 stops. People do not want to walk a half mile to a local bus stop. That is why the guidelines call for a quarter mile walk. 

You blame everyone but the MTA. You don't think the MTA is corrupt? They lied about the causes of subway delays. They claimed to have fixed signals in the past and it was revealed that the inspections were never done and the paperwork was fraudulent. The MTA isn't as innocent as you make them out to be. 

You talk about running near empty local buses. What about running 60 foot buses which use more fuel and the drivers are paid more with under six passengers per bus 24 hours a day in both directions? I am talking about the B44 SBS south of Avenue X. I have a plan to fix that which would greatly increase the number of passengers but the MTA isn't interested. 

But why eliminate bus stops that benefit no one and only increases travel time? That is not how you attract passengers. 

"Well when was the last time bus routes were reorganized and I'm not talking about ridiculous 30 minute shuttles that very few find useful and use?"

Didn't they release a bus plan that would include restructuring our bus system across all five boroughs recently?

"Did you know if you send in a route change proposal  via MTA e-mail, the standard response is either it will be forwarded to the proper department for evaluation and that is the last you will hear even if you send three or four follow-up e-mails. The other response is that they cannot evaluate suggestions from the public."

You could join advocacy groups and help try and make a change seems way more effective than sending an email to the MTA. Seems like groups like Riders Alliance and Bus Turn Around is helping make strides for bus riders.   

"Bus ridership is declining because the routes are not up to date and service reliability  sucks."

Everyone agrees with this but ever time they try and do something or propose something its met with nothing but negative feedback. So how can anything look prosperous when everything is being shut down. 

"You blame everyone but the MTA. You don't think the MTA is corrupt? They lied about the causes of subway delays. They claimed to have fixed signals in the past and it was revealed that the inspections were never done and the paperwork was fraudulent. The MTA isn't as innocent as you make them out to be."

I don't blame everyone but the MTA. I'm just very disgusted with the negativity on this forum. Anything could be done from the littlest thing and someone is going to be negative about it. Nothing constructive, no better solutions, and or suggestions just pure negativity. The people who are making the positive changes are those who are in the advocacy groups trying to make things better. I saw a mini documentary about a woman who helped advocate to get SBS on the Q52/53 because she knew how much her community needed it. I watched another short video about how Houston redesigned their network and the people involved. But what are you guys doing here? Complaining as usual and even about things that have yet to happen or is just at a workshop. We need to stop that and see what our bus system needs. Right now others cities like Seattle have a way more better system than we do. Some others took things like grid like bus systems, updating bus routes, eliminating underused bus stops to change. We as in NYC haven't done much. Lets put bus lanes to help buses carrying thousands of people each day not get stuck in traffic then someone is going to complain about loss of business or congestion. Lets put sbs on the busiest routes someone is going to complain about service cuts. Lets redesign the bus network then someone complains about what have you not. The list goes on.  

I know the MTA can be shitty but god damn you cannot be skeptical every time they give attention to the buses because its greatly needed. I could understand your fear of service cuts but literally if our buses were kept the same it might as well be a constant service cut because nothing has changed. Its going to keep being that way if we just sit here and complain about things and do nothing. Take part in open houses, join groups, and try and make a difference in a positive way, hell take to twitter and use hashtags and talk to NYCTbus on there. Make your voice heard. 

I joined this forum to try and help discuss about our bus system but I see I was wrong. 

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

That's why I don't even bother with dude; yet another one of these MTA apologists....

Everything isn't conspiratorial, but just look around the city & analyze what's going on w/ the buses & trains...... Just what is the MTA doing (especially as of late) that I should be optimistic about... Brings up skeptics on here, but all his buckets of f***** positivity isn't accomplishing anything either.....

I'm an MTA apologist. 

Okay good one. 

[B35 via Church]

10 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Wouldn’t a better plan for the Rockaways would be to extend the Q22 from Roxbury to Flatbush Avenue and make the same Q35 stops north of the bridge and eliminate the Q35 route? This was proposed by the NYCDOT Bus Analysis back in 2004, when the routes were still privately operated.

 

Also, as an alternative to elimating the Q35 entirely, it could be rerouted east to serve Knapp Street and Emmons Avenue and operate to Sheepshead Bay Station, and possibly to Coney Island Via Avenue Z. The B4 would be cutback to Sheepshead Bay Station. The Q35 would be renamed the Q35 LTD, and make Limited stops along the Q22 route to Far Rockaway

 

Either way, it looks better than an attempt to cut service in the Rockaways. This is REAL CHANGE.

A Q22/Q35 combination would benefit much more Brooklyn patrons than Rockaways patrons AINEC..... The Q22 needs to stay within the Rockaways & combining the 2 routes would loom detrimental to a lot of those people..... Those folks are not trying to get to Brooklyn in any large numbers...

[Attempting to cut service] & [opting to intentionally create unreliable routes] are opposite sides of the same coin AFAIC.....

10 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

I would rather keep the Q22 and 35 separate. The Q35 has no business going to Sheepshead Bay or Coney Island.

Well, we can forget about those Q52's going to Far Rockaway now

Keep them both separate, yeah, so would most Queens patrons.... There has long been this love affair of wanting to combine the 2 routes & it simply comes across as ignorant..... Same goes for the wanting to *combine the Q32/Q33* (when the Q33 ran inside LGA)......

9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Have you seen The NY Times article the other day how the subways have been deliberately slowed down and how that has caused the massive delays we have today that the MTA has blamed on overcrowding when in fact subway ridership has not been increasing? 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/09/nyregion/subway-crisis-mta-decisions-signals-rules.html

I didn't read the article (thanks btw), but someone in the subway section on here referenced the deliberate slow downs & the MTA pinning it on overcrowding.....

I'm supposed to be hopeful that one day, an agency that spearheaded shenanigans like this (that potentially puts the riding public in danger) for the sake of portraying that subway ridership isn't decreasing - will one day wake up & bust a 180, and roses & daisies & little girls twirling their dresses singing la la la la la.... la la la la la.... la la la la la (on some Minnie Riperton tip) & all will be well when it comes to the state of mass transit in this city? Man, GTFOH....

This whole thing has a "BridgeGate" feel to it....

Mass murderers don't become pacifists.

 

7 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

If the Q22 and Q35 were combined, this would allow for a one seat ride between Brooklyn destinations like Kings Plaza and areas east of 116th Street, eliminating or reducing the need to transfer at Beach 169th Street. What’s wrong with that?

This way of thinking from quite a bit of you newer posters on here that amounts to *any change being good change*, is plain old, flat out naive.... It isn't just in the bus section here, I see instances of it in the subway section too......

Under this simple logic, we should start combining routes left & right, just so that one seat rides can be accomplished..... I'm not sure where this comes from, but forum/blog posters over the years like to make like the Q22 is this short route that can feasibly be combined with the Q35 & have that resultant route run as smoothly as possible.... When you inject Flatbush av into the mix, just throw that out the window.... Have such a combination happen, you'll have a bunch of Rockaways patrons (namely, those at & east of 116th) wondering just where the hell their buses are...... Since the peninsula is lower in density over "mainland" Brooklyn/Queens, the thinking is that buses are just whizzing on by with little to no delays whatsoever.... A couple rides throughout most of the day on the Q22 itself would have you thinking otherwise..... I find that just getting out of Far Rockaway alone takes longer than it perhaps should.....

Yes, you have riders currently xferring b/w the two routes, but the amount of riders that'd appreciate the 1-seat ride is largely insignificant to the amount of Q22 riders riding b/w Far Rockaway & Rockaway Park (B. 116th)..... I can guarantee that if the Q22 & the Q35 had a common terminal at B. 116th, the (miniscule) amount of people per trip taking the Q22 to B. 169th would be less than what it is now..... You have those that ride out to B. 169th on the Q22 because it's no sense in getting off at B.116th/Rockaway Bch. Blvd & walking the 1 block over to Newport, when both buses stop at B. 169th..... Sure, the option is available, but why induce a walk when you don't have to.....

Few ever want to analyze things on any real level & instead, rely on generic, rosy-sounding talking points that sends off the illusion like they know what they're talking about.... That's something else I'm getting annoyed with on this forum as of late.....

9 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

They could extend it summer-only.....

.....is exactly what should be done w/ the Q22. Buses carry too much air west of B. 116th otherwise.....

[BrooklynBus]

8 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

"Well when was the last time bus routes were reorganized and I'm not talking about ridiculous 30 minute shuttles that very few find useful and use?"

Didn't they release a bus plan that would include restructuring our bus system across all five boroughs recently?

"Did you know if you send in a route change proposal  via MTA e-mail, the standard response is either it will be forwarded to the proper department for evaluation and that is the last you will hear even if you send three or four follow-up e-mails. The other response is that they cannot evaluate suggestions from the public."

You could join advocacy groups and help try and make a change seems way more effective than sending an email to the MTA. Seems like groups like Riders Alliance and Bus Turn Around is helping make strides for bus riders.   

"Bus ridership is declining because the routes are not up to date and service reliability  sucks."

Everyone agrees with this but ever time they try and do something or propose something its met with nothing but negative feedback. So how can anything look prosperous when everything is being shut down. 

"You blame everyone but the MTA. You don't think the MTA is corrupt? They lied about the causes of subway delays. They claimed to have fixed signals in the past and it was revealed that the inspections were never done and the paperwork was fraudulent. The MTA isn't as innocent as you make them out to be."

I don't blame everyone but the MTA. I'm just very disgusted with the negativity on this forum. Anything could be done from the littlest thing and someone is going to be negative about it. Nothing constructive, no better solutions, and or suggestions just pure negativity. The people who are making the positive changes are those who are in the advocacy groups trying to make things better. I saw a mini documentary about a woman who helped advocate to get SBS on the Q52/53 because she knew how much her community needed it. I watched another short video about how Houston redesigned their network and the people involved. But what are you guys doing here? Complaining as usual and even about things that have yet to happen or is just at a workshop. We need to stop that and see what our bus system needs. Right now others cities like Seattle have a way more better system than we do. Some others took things like grid like bus systems, updating bus routes, eliminating underused bus stops to change. We as in NYC haven't done much. Lets put bus lanes to help buses carrying thousands of people each day not get stuck in traffic then someone is going to complain about loss of business or congestion. Lets put sbs on the busiest routes someone is going to complain about service cuts. Lets redesign the bus network then someone complains about what have you not. The list goes on.  

I know the MTA can be shitty but god damn you cannot be skeptical every time they give attention to the buses because its greatly needed. I could understand your fear of service cuts but literally if our buses were kept the same it might as well be a constant service cut because nothing has changed. Its going to keep being that way if we just sit here and complain about things and do nothing. Take part in open houses, join groups, and try and make a difference in a positive way, hell take to twitter and use hashtags and talk to NYCTbus on there. Make your voice heard. 

I joined this forum to try and help discuss about our bus system but I see I was wrong. 

I'm an MTA apologist. 

Okay good one. 

Yes. They released a general bus plan with no specifics. They promised it will be more aggressive than past plans, but if history is a guide it won't be anything good. It will be like the much maligned 2010 cutbacks but disguised as route improvements. Many cuts issued at the same time so it will be impossible to protest all of them, so a few are guaranteed to go through and the system is further eroded. 

B35 via Church hit the nail on the head. Not all change is good change and general solutions can't be applied everywhere. There is no such thing as one size fits all. 

I have been a member of the Committee for Better Transit and the Queens Public Transit Committee. They are very limited in what they can accomplish and meaningful change takes decades. The former was responsible getting air conditioned trains and articulated buses amongst other things. The latter is fighting for reactivation of the LIRR Rockaway Branch. Riders Alliance is a community activist group without any transportation experience so they don't really know the needs. Most of what they do is complaining. I attended one of their meetings and when I expressed disagreement with the ideas they projected, they told me that I wasn't invited to their next meeting and would not be let in. That is not how advocacy groups should be run. I have also attended many Open Houses and witnessed all suggestions for change being ignored. Changes are only made if petitions of a thousand signatures are submitted and a team of elected officials ban together to demand change. Individuals are IGNORED. An Avenue R bus stop was proposed at every B44 SBS workshop and was refused. One mile between two SBS bus stops in a densely populated area is ridiculous. 

Solutions aren't as simple as putting bus lanes everywhere, setting up grid systems, and eliminating bus stops. Many bus lanes are proposed where they are not needed and are doing more harm than good. While generally grid systems may make things easier, in some places they can make things worse. Each situation needs specific study and the MTA has shown they are too lazy to undertake proper analyses to make good proposals. 

You ask why there is so much negativity to what the MTA proposes. That is because much of what they propose is shit. Sure, there will always be someone who is unhappy when changes are proposed, but if the changes are good, there is little objection and much support. THERE IS A REASON WHY MTA PROPOSALS MEET STIFF OPPOSITION. 

Look at my massive 1978 southern Brooklyn proposals that created the B1 and changed 10 other routes when I was at the Department of City Planning. We went to six community Boards and not a single board voted against any one of the proposals. Three voted for all of them and three abstained from being for or against. IT'S BECAUSE THOSE PROPOSALS WERE BENEFICIAL TO MOST EVERYONE. A four bus trip became a two bus trip and would been a one bus trip if the entire proposal was accepted. When has the MTA done anything else like that? And you don't know how much trouble they gave us in making those improvements. It took a lawsuit to make it reality. Only one single written complaint was received. So why do most Boards vote against every MTA proposal. A least half the Boards opposed the Woodhaven SBS. Think about that for awhile. But everything I tell you seems to go in one ear and out the other. You are not here to discuss anything. You are here to advance your views which you are not willing to change. 

9 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

If the Q22 and Q35 were combined, this would allow for a one seat ride between Brooklyn destinations like Kings Plaza and areas east of 116th Street, eliminating or reducing the need to transfer at Beach 169th Street. What’s wrong with that?

in addition, do you even realize that getting between Brooklyn and the Rockaways is very difficult by public transit. The only option is the Q35, which only goes to the IRT Nostrand Avenue services at Flatbush Avenue. Thus, if there were bus services going between the Rockaway Peninsula and the Brighton Line at Sheepshead Bay, then new connections would open up between those neighborhoods, a new corridor would be served (Knapp Street), an alternative subway line to the IRT can be utilized for travel to and from the peninsula can be used, and bus ridership would increase. This is the IMPROVED CONNECTIVITY we need.

I am not saying I agree with you about combining the routes, but there definitely needs to be a bus route between Sheepshead Bay and Rockaway. It should not take at least three buses. It is ridiculous that as I write this, I have a clear view of Rockaway but to get there can be a two-hour bus trip, but the MTA has no desire to improve neighborhood connectivity or increase bus service. 

[JeremiahC99]

31 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

I am not saying I agree with you about combining the routes, but there definitely needs to be a bus route between Sheepshead Bay and Rockaway. It should not take at least three buses. It is ridiculous that as I write this, I have a clear view of Rockaway but to get there can be a two-hour bus trip, but the MTA has no desire to improve neighborhood connectivity or increase bus service. 

You are right about needing a bus service between Sheepshead bay and the Rockaways. The fact that the only route between Brooklyn and the Rockaways goes to only one subway line is ridiculous. Let’s say that there is an incident at Flatbush Avenue station. As a result, there would be no train service between Church Avenue and Flatbush Avenue. If you are coming from Manhattan to Belle Harbor or Jacob Riis Park, how else would you get there aside from the roundabout A train?

My idea solves that problem by allowing people to take an alternate service (the Brighton Line), and transferring to the new bus route at Sheepshead Bay. This adds an extra alternative for Brooklyn-Rockaway travel and would avoid any potential train problems at Flatbush Avenue.

Another side effect of this proposal is that it would serve Knapp Street, another corridor needing transit service,thus improving connectivity significantly.

Also, that idea of combining the routes is not new. This was proposed in 2004 in the NYCDOT Bus Analysis for the then-privately operated routes. However, the proposals were never implemented by the DOT due to the MTA takeover of the routes, although some proposals were implemented since then (ie, Q10 articulated conversion, Q113/Q114 restructuring, etc), although I still wish your Committee for Better Transit bus proposals were implemented.

Do you have any other ideas in how to improve service within the Rockaways and Between Brooklyn and the Rockaways.

[BrooklynBus]

57 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

You are right about needing a bus service between Sheepshead bay and the Rockaways. The fact that the only route between Brooklyn and the Rockaways goes to only one subway line is ridiculous. Let’s say that there is an incident at Flatbush Avenue station. As a result, there would be no train service between Church Avenue and Flatbush Avenue. If you are coming from Manhattan to Belle Harbor or Jacob Riis Park, how else would you get there aside from the roundabout A train?

My idea solves that problem by allowing people to take an alternate service (the Brighton Line), and transferring to the new bus route at Sheepshead Bay. This adds an extra alternative for Brooklyn-Rockaway travel and would avoid any potential train problems at Flatbush Avenue.

Another side effect of this proposal is that it would serve Knapp Street, another corridor needing transit service,thus improving connectivity significantly.

Also, that idea of combining the routes is not new. This was proposed in 2004 in the NYCDOT Bus Analysis for the then-privately operated routes. However, the proposals were never implemented by the DOT due to the MTA takeover of the routes, although some proposals were implemented since then (ie, Q10 articulated conversion, Q113/Q114 restructuring, etc), although I still wish your Committee for Better Transit bus proposals were implemented.

Do you have any other ideas in how to improve service within the Rockaways and Between Brooklyn and the Rockaways.

I have really not studied how to improve service within the Rockaways and I believe I first proposed a route from Sheepshead Bay Station to the Rockaways via the Belt Parkway or Knapp Street. I also threw out the idea of extending the B2. And it's not only Brooklyn Rockaway travel that needs to be looked at but all interborough travel. There is a reason why private and illegal routes between places like Sunset Park and Flushing are successful. There are neighborhoods that need better connections and the MTA has shown zero interest in expanding the bus system, insisting that any service addition must be balanced by a service cutback elsewhere. 

[BrooklynBus]

Here is last year's article from the Rockaway Wave detailing each stop to be eliminated or relocated. Why wasn't this information included in the Open House notice?

 

Destined To Fail

CB14 rejects MTA’s bus stop reduction plan
 

The Wave | on October 12, 2017

By Ralph Mancini
 

The Metropolitan Transit Authority wants to eliminate bus stops as part of a plan to provide increased service in Rockaway.

At the Community Board 14 monthly meeting, however, board members unanimously voted to oppose the controversial proposal.

MTA Assistant Director of Community Relations Simone Price was among the agency representatives on hand at the Knights of Columbus on Tuesday, Oct. 10 to promote a plan to improve bus speed and service reliability in the eastern part of the peninsula by short turning the Q22’s westbound route at Beach 116th Street on every other trip.

Straphangers headed toward Jacob Riis Park, according to the recommendation, would then board the Q35, whose travel path would undergo a revision by moving its route from Newport Avenue to Rockaway Beach Boulevard.

A study conducted by the MTA and the Department of Transportation (DOT), Price explained, would theoretically save buses nine minutes westbound and 11 minutes eastbound in an effort to serve commuters with more frequent service.

But those in attendance were also told that 15 eastbound bus stops along the Q22 route would be discontinued in order to make the conversion viable. The stops include Beach 34th Street, Beach 38th Street, Beach 49th Street, Beach 75th Street, Beach 77th Street and Beach 86th Street.

Beach 27th Street and Beach 73rd Street, on the other hand, would get relocated to Camp Road and Beach 74th Street respectively.

Furthermore, the elimination of 10 more bus stops would also be slated for the western side, including Beach 106th Street, Beach 118th Street, Beach 124th Street, Beach 131st Street, Beach 137th Street and Beach 141st Street.

Beach 77th Street is the one stop that would relocate to Beach 79th Street.

“If we can short turn every other trip,” reasoned MTA Principal Transportation Planner Warren Berry, “we can get the necessary buses back to the east side, which is about 80 percent of our total ridership.”

CB14 Chairperson Dolores Orr wasn’t buying the grand-scale alterations and voiced her concern about the added congestion that would result from shifting the Q35 on the Q22’s daily path.

She estimated that 200 buses would end up traveling up and down Beach 116th Street with district police cars crowding the area along with fire engines pulling in and out of the local firehouse on the same road.

When questioned by Orr on how long would it take someone headed to Beach 120th Street to board a new bus after being dropped off at Beach 116th Street, the MTA employees responded that they didn’t know and that the schedule of a new route pattern hadn’t yet been executed.

Fellow board member Annette Lord-Cohen took issue with the proposed eradication of the bus stops at Beach 34th Street, Beach 38th Street and Beach 49th Street informing the speakers of the impact it would have on the elderly and infirm, many of whom depend on walkers to get around.

“There’s a church on Beach 37th Street and Beach Channel Drive. That’s a ridership,” said Lord-Cohen. “You have a community center in the 40s that they use.”

“The guidelines need to be changed because if you went down to city planning, you would know that on Beach 36th and Beach Channel Drive, they are putting up senior housing. There’s major development going on. So, what you are saying to me now is that you’re going to eliminate [the bus stops], only to [return] and bring them back?”

Price countered by assuring the board that the MTA never decides to make changes “arbitrarily” and added that senior commuters have other transportation options, such as Access-A-Ride.

The suggestion was met with scorn as CB14 Parks and Public Safety Chair Jose Velez spoke about how Access-A-Ride often forces his mother to wait for hours to get the service she needs and shouldn’t be considered an option.

The agency’s plan, he maintained, is only making students, the elderly and working people alike walk or even run a little further every day to catch the bus.

“I’m disappointed because I don’t think you’re taking people into account; you’re just taking guidelines into account,” stated Velez.

Several of the board members, including Noreen Ellis, griped about Rockaway Beach Boulevard being a narrow and congested corridor that isn’t suited to handle any additional bus routes.

“You’re going to have three buses on a short, narrow street. It’s just destined to fail,” said Ellis. “We’re isolated, desolated and neglected by the MTA and now you’re asking us to have faith in this conceptual idea? I ask you to relook at your numbers and come back when you can service our community.”

The proposal failed to generate any level of support or positive feedback from the local audience.

Sonia Moise implored the MTA liaisons to pay attention to the numerous complaints communicated by her colleagues on the board considering that her group is a representation of the entire Rockaway area from one end of the peninsula to the other.

“I hope to God you’re listening to us,” she said. “You said this was a proposal, but we don’t like it.”

 

[BrooklynBus]

17 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

 

The only way for the stop spacing increase to add a quarter mile to the walking distance in and of itself (i.e. Ignoring the fact that buses won't be available on Newport) is if the stop spacing is every half mile. If that's the case, then that's rather unreasonable considering that the subway stop spacing is every half mile as well. If they're increasing the stop spacing to every quarter mile, then the average increase in the walking distance is 1/16 of a mile. (Remember that once you're on the street the bus runs down, in a worse-case scenario, you only have to walk half the stop spacing. So the bus stops every quarter mile, you only walk 1/8 of a mile).

Then you also have to consider that (assuming that the activity density is uniform around the route and ridership per stop is roughly the same) that if you eliminate half the stops, half of the riders are still unaffected. So the average walking distance increases by half the maximum walking distance. (Half the riders walk the maximum extra, and half continue to use their same stop). In practice, though, the ridership isn't evenly distributed, so the busiest stops usually get kept (for example, on Staten Island, they kept around half the stops, which served about 70% of existing riders). So the average additional walking distance decreases slightly (though the maximum remains the same)

But you can't ignore that buses will no longer run on Newport Avenue. You have to look at the totality of the plan. That means some living on or near Beach Channel Drive will have a half-mile walk to the bus. 

See the Rockaway Wave article from last year to see which stops are being elminated. 

[MysteriousBtrain]

19 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

But you can't ignore that buses will no longer run on Newport Avenue. You have to look at the totality of the plan. That means some living on or near Beach Channel Drive will have a half-mile walk to the bus. 

Ouch. A half mile in an area where few live. Honestly anyone even the elderly can either drive or walk that.

 

Not every single change that involves cuts is going to do harm to a majority.

[Future ENY OP]

3 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

Here is last year's article from the Rockaway Wave detailing each stop to be eliminated or relocated. Why wasn't this information included in the Open House notice?

 

Destined To Fail

CB14 rejects MTA’s bus stop reduction plan
 

The Wave | on October 12, 2017

By Ralph Mancini
 

The Metropolitan Transit Authority wants to eliminate bus stops as part of a plan to provide increased service in Rockaway.

At the Community Board 14 monthly meeting, however, board members unanimously voted to oppose the controversial proposal.

MTA Assistant Director of Community Relations Simone Price was among the agency representatives on hand at the Knights of Columbus on Tuesday, Oct. 10 to promote a plan to improve bus speed and service reliability in the eastern part of the peninsula by short turning the Q22’s westbound route at Beach 116th Street on every other trip.

Straphangers headed toward Jacob Riis Park, according to the recommendation, would then board the Q35, whose travel path would undergo a revision by moving its route from Newport Avenue to Rockaway Beach Boulevard. (Why the reroute? What's not broken doesn't need to be fixed)

A study conducted by the MTA and the Department of Transportation (DOT), Price explained, would theoretically save buses nine minutes westbound and 11 minutes eastbound in an effort to serve commuters with more frequent service.

But those in attendance were also told that 15 eastbound bus stops along the Q22 route would be discontinued in order to make the conversion viable. The stops include Beach 34th Street, Beach 38th Street, Beach 49th Street, Beach 75th Street, Beach 77th Street and Beach 86th Street. (This all equals to service cuts)

Beach 27th Street and Beach 73rd Street, on the other hand, would get relocated to Camp Road and Beach 74th Street respectively.

Furthermore, the elimination of 10 more bus stops would also be slated for the western side, including Beach 106th Street, Beach 118th Street, Beach 124th Street, Beach 131st Street, Beach 137th Street and Beach 141st Street. (Forcing more work for the Q35).

Beach 77th Street is the one stop that would relocate to Beach 79th Street.

“If we can short turn every other trip,” reasoned MTA Principal Transportation Planner Warren Berry, “we can get the necessary buses back to the east side, which is about 80 percent of our total ridership.” (BULLS*IT)

CB14 Chairperson Dolores Orr wasn’t buying the grand-scale alterations and voiced her concern about the added congestion that would result from shifting the Q35 on the Q22’s daily path.

She estimated that 200 buses would end up traveling up and down Beach 116th Street with district police cars crowding the area along with fire engines pulling in and out of the local firehouse on the same road. (Just equals to more congestion)

When questioned by Orr on how long would it take someone headed to Beach 120th Street to board a new bus after being dropped off at Beach 116th Street, the MTA employees responded that they didn’t know and that the schedule of a new route pattern hadn’t yet been executed.

Fellow board member Annette Lord-Cohen took issue with the proposed eradication of the bus stops at Beach 34th Street, Beach 38th Street and Beach 49th Street informing the speakers of the impact it would have on the elderly and infirm, many of whom depend on walkers to get around.

“There’s a church on Beach 37th Street and Beach Channel Drive. That’s a ridership,” said Lord-Cohen. “You have a community center in the 40s that they use.”

“The guidelines need to be changed because if you went down to city planning, you would know that on Beach 36th and Beach Channel Drive, they are putting up senior housing. There’s major development going on. So, what you are saying to me now is that you’re going to eliminate [the bus stops], only to [return] and bring them back?” (The has no compassion for it's customers)

Price countered by assuring the board that the MTA never decides to make changes “arbitrarily” and added that senior commuters have other transportation options, such as Access-A-Ride. (Access-A-Ride is a complete JOKE!)

The suggestion was met with scorn as CB14 Parks and Public Safety Chair Jose Velez spoke about how Access-A-Ride often forces his mother to wait for hours to get the service she needs and shouldn’t be considered an option.

The agency’s plan, he maintained, is only making students, the elderly and working people alike walk or even run a little further every day to catch the bus.

“I’m disappointed because I don’t think you’re taking people into account; you’re just taking guidelines into account,” stated Velez.

Several of the board members, including Noreen Ellis, griped about Rockaway Beach Boulevard being a narrow and congested corridor that isn’t suited to handle any additional bus routes.

“You’re going to have three buses on a short, narrow street. It’s just destined to fail,” said Ellis. “We’re isolated, desolated and neglected by the MTA and now you’re asking us to have faith in this conceptual idea? I ask you to relook at your numbers and come back when you can service our community.”

The proposal failed to generate any level of support or positive feedback from the local audience.

Sonia Moise implored the MTA liaisons to pay attention to the numerous complaints communicated by her colleagues on the board considering that her group is a representation of the entire Rockaway area from one end of the peninsula to the other.

“I hope to God you’re listening to us,” she said. “You said this was a proposal, but we don’t like it.”

 

Responses in red on top

This is what I don't understand. With all these new buses we have right now plus pending orders within the next 3-5 years the would think to create new routes instead of service cuts and forcing one route to work more than the other. This logic I don't understand. I may not be from Queens. However, traveling in QUEENS is already hell by its self. Now you are forcing Far Rockaway, Arverne, Belle Harbor, Roxbury to bare service cuts just as everyone else in the mainland of Brooklyn/Queens. The Rockaways need every bus service possible to get to the mainland. If anything, a new bus route should run alongside the Q22 which is already the workhorse of the Rockaways. You are not going to force existing service on the Q52/Q53, Q111, 113 or 114 to service Rockaway Beach. Why put the pressure for the Q35 and Q22.

I hope CB14 shuts this idea down again...

[BrooklynBus]

35 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Responses in red on top

This is what I don't understand. With all these new buses we have right now plus pending orders within the next 3-5 years the would think to create new routes instead of service cuts and forcing one route to work more than the other. This logic I don't understand. I may not be from Queens. However, traveling in QUEENS is already hell by its self. Now you are forcing Far Rockaway, Arverne, Belle Harbor, Roxbury to bare service cuts just as everyone else in the mainland of Brooklyn/Queens. The Rockaways need every bus service possible to get to the mainland. If anything, a new bus route should run alongside the Q22 which is already the workhorse of the Rockaways. You are not going to force existing service on the Q52/Q53, Q111, 113 or 114 to service Rockaway Beach. Why put the pressure for the Q35 and Q22.

I hope CB14 shuts this idea down again...

The reason for the rerouted is for the combined headway so they can turn more Q22s at B116 St. 

Q35 bus stops will also be eliminated, I believe. 

It doesn't matter that CB 14 hated it. They doing it anyway even though they said they don't make changes arbitrarily. Only if there is a massive protest by all elected officials is there a chance thus will be stopped. 

3 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Ouch. A half mile in an area where few live. Honestly anyone even the elderly can either drive or walk that.

 

Not every single change that involves cuts is going to do harm to a majority.

So it is quite alright if 49% (a minority) are hurt? Are you nuts? Why does anyone have to be hurt?

if the guideline is a quarter mile, you shouldn't have to walk a half mile which makes the guideline useless. Have you tried to walk a half mile on crutches? Some elderly can only walk a couple of blocks.

[checkmatechamp13]

9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

But you can't ignore that buses will no longer run on Newport Avenue. You have to look at the totality of the plan. That means some living on or near Beach Channel Drive will have a half-mile walk to the bus. 

See the Rockaway Wave article from last year to see which stops are being elminated. 

I'm referring to this statement you made:

Like B35 via Church said, it's the elimination of bus stops that is more of a concern than moving both routes to Rockaway Beach Boulevard.

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Responses in red on top

This is what I don't understand. With all these new buses we have right now plus pending orders within the next 3-5 years the would think to create new routes instead of service cuts and forcing one route to work more than the other. This logic I don't understand. I may not be from Queens. However, traveling in QUEENS is already hell by its self. Now you are forcing Far Rockaway, Arverne, Belle Harbor, Roxbury to bare service cuts just as everyone else in the mainland of Brooklyn/Queens. The Rockaways need every bus service possible to get to the mainland. If anything, a new bus route should run alongside the Q22 which is already the workhorse of the Rockaways. You are not going to force existing service on the Q52/Q53, Q111, 113 or 114 to service Rockaway Beach. Why put the pressure for the Q35 and Q22.

I hope CB14 shuts this idea down again...

I'm not understanding your "pressure" argument for the Q22 & Q35.....

Looks like they want to try to streamline bus service west of B. 116th to have the Q35 run on Rockaway Beach Blvd. instead of Newport (and have it make less stops than the current amt. of Q22 stops along that stretch)..... As for the Q22, either way, they're looking to a] decrease the number of overall stops buses will be making from end to end & b] short turn more Q22's at B. 116th itself...... The extra "work" that'll end up being done, will be of some passenger{s} taking longer walks to get a stop.... Buses won't be doing anymore work; matter fact, they'd be doing less of it.... More passengers per stop (increased dwell time per stop) over less stops, I don't see as adding more pressure/work for the Q22/Q35.....

[Union Tpke]

On 5/11/2018 at 9:28 PM, BrooklynBus said:

Have you seen The NY Times article the other day how the subways have been deliberately slowed down and how that has caused the massive delays we have today that the MTA has blamed on overcrowding when in fact subway ridership has not been increasing? 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/05/09/nyregion/subway-crisis-mta-decisions-signals-rules.html

That is because the MTA is cheap and won't install additional insulated rail joints.

[BrooklynBus]

6 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I'm referring to this statement you made:

Like B35 via Church said, it's the elimination of bus stops that is more of a concern than moving both routes to Rockaway Beach Boulevard.

I believe in having schedules fitting demand. So if in fact the bulk of ridership is east if B116 Street, it may make sense to short turn more Q22s at B116 Street provided street space is available for buses to layover. It may also make sense to move Q35s to Rockaway Beach Boulevard for a combined headway so those additional short turns can be made depending on travel patterns, if maximum walking distances remain near the guidelines.

However when you factor in the elimination of bus stops that increases the walking distance for some to twice the guidelines, then the plan is unacceptable.

In any case, I would still oppose the bus stop elimination because the stops are lightly used and the buses will not be traveling any faster. People will just be walking longer to a bus stop with a greater chance of missing a bus and adding up to 20 minutes to their trip. 

[NewFlyer 230]

I feel like the  is trying to reduce the Q22 to a supplementary route to the Q35 and eventually the Q52.

I never used the Q22 but I’ve used the Q35 and it usually only stops no more than twice maybe three times between Brooklyn and B.116st. If stops are lightly used I wouldn’t bother getting rid of them. So it is obvious of what the MTA’s intentions are with the Q22 and local service in general. See Woodhaven Blvd with the Q11. I still stand by my opinion that the Q11 and Q53 should have been the sole Woodhaven Blvd routes. Instead we have the overall decrease and unattractiveness of local service and the Q52 and Q53 being .

Also I feel like the Q52 will be extended to Far Rockaway eventually. It is only a matter of time before the MTA pulls the trigger on that. Of course that will hurt the Q22 overal but we all know how the MTA treats Select Bus Service like it is the answer to everything. 

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

I feel like the  is trying to reduce the Q22 to a supplementary route to the Q35 and eventually the Q52.

I never used the Q22 but I’ve used the Q35 and it usually only stops no more than twice maybe three times between Brooklyn and B.116st. If stops are lightly used I wouldn’t bother getting rid of them. So it is obvious of what the MTA’s intentions are with the Q22 and local service in general. See Woodhaven Blvd with the Q11. I still stand by my opinion that the Q11 and Q53 should have been the sole Woodhaven Blvd routes. Instead we have the overall decrease and unattractiveness of local service and the Q52 and Q53 being .

Also I feel like the Q52 will be extended to Far Rockaway eventually. It is only a matter of time before the MTA pulls the trigger on that. Of course that will hurt the Q22 overal but we all know how the MTA treats Select Bus Service like it is the answer to everything. 

Yeah, but the Q35 doesn't usually only make no more than 2 or 3 stops between Brooklyn & B. 116th..... That's just downright false.

What you're describing with that is the Q35 within Queens....

[NewFlyer 230]

3 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, but the Q35 doesn't usually only make no more than 2 or 3 stops between Brooklyn & B. 116th..... That's just downright false.

What you're describing with that is the Q35 within Queens....

Yes I was referring to the route in Queens but I should have been more specific. In Brooklyn it does pick up more since the B41 does have reliability problems.