MTA’s bus action plan should focus on neighborhoods with no subway stops, pols say

[Deucey]

17 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

You say this like it stops people.

 

Keep in mind that data science is only as good as the data you have.

A big black hole right now, for example, is Uber and Lyft data; they're not required to disclose O/D data in detail the way yellow and green cabs are. That's one vital piece of info that I think we're missing for starters.

I forgot what it was called, but the 2010 Census includes some statistical assumption based on density, reported housing units, run rate for single and married parents based on number of children in school, etc, to make the population and funding estimates when people wouldn't return their census forms or answer the door.

 has MetroCard, and based on a lot of the aforementioned metrics, T&LC registrations, historical ridership data and trends, and other demographic devices, could make a pretty good approximation of an areas population and usage tendencies to adjust routings and frequencies.

So it's less about how good the data is and more about how good the person's dealing with the data are.

[B35 via Church]

40 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

They would look at populations and density and origins/destinations.

 

To use one corridor as a simplified example, there probably will still be a bus running along, say, Williamsbridge Road once everything is said and done. Its north terminal may or may not be at 225th & WPR. Its south terminal may or may not be Locust Point. It may or may not be called Bx8. But, no matter how you slice it, something will have to serve Williamsbridge Road and it will have to go to and from somewhere, presumably places where people on Williamsbridge say they want to go.

Got all that.

 

What I'm not understanding, was why you got all animated earlier about keeping routes as they are, at all costs, this & that....

Hell, let's run w/ the Bx8 as an example... Just what is the difference between:

- their declaration of redrawing the network & when all is said and done, there'll end up being a route with the exact routing of the current Bx8 anyway, and...
- their declaration of redrawing the network & working around the current Bx8 (without even considering making any changes to it)....

IDK man, what I'm getting from your posts is that you're of the ilk that believes that [every route has to be somehow changed in a network], or [none of the routes that existed in that network should remain] upon a redrawing of that network.....

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, B35 via Church said:

Got all that.

 

What I'm not understanding, was why you got all animated earlier about keeping routes as they are, at all costs, this & that....

Hell, let's run w/ the Bx8 as an example... Just what is the difference between:

- their declaration of redrawing the network & when all is said and done, there'll end up being a route with the exact routing of the current Bx8 anyway, and...
- their declaration of redrawing the network & working around the current Bx8 (without even considering making any changes to it)....

IDK man, what I'm getting from your posts is that you're of the ilk that believes that [every route has to be somehow changed in a network], or [none of the routes that existed in that network should remain] upon a redrawing of that network.....

 

Which certainly is not the case. There are some routes that are actually fine.  They're just being bogged down in traffic, so the congestion angle needs to be examined.

[B35 via Church]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Which certainly is not the case. There are some routes that are actually fine.  They're just being bogged down in traffic, so the congestion angle needs to be examined.

That's exactly my point.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

53 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

IDK man, what I'm getting from your posts is that you're of the ilk that believes that [every route has to be somehow changed in a network], or [none of the routes that existed in that network should remain] upon a redrawing of that network.....

I never said either of those things. My (rather obvious) point is that the, by definition, the "blank slate" approach necessarily means that every current route has some non-zero probability of being changed in some way. This doesn't mean that every route "will" or "must" be changed, only that every route can be changed.

[B35 via Church]

32 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

I never said either of those things. My (rather obvious) point is that the, by definition, the "blank slate" approach necessarily means that every current route has some non-zero probability of being changed in some way. This doesn't mean that every route "will" or "must" be changed, only that every route can be changed.

The definition of a blank slate approach isn't the issue..... The issue is what you went on to saying afterwards, which was:

Quote

It's silly to announce that you're redesigning the whole network from scratch, but you have to keep some routes exactly as they are, no matter what, just to preserve a funding mechanism.

Quote

Those redesigns covered the WHOLE system and (probably) didn't include keeping some routes unchanged at all costs. That probably will be the case here.

("Rework everything, but leave my bus alone.")

You are clearly exuding some sort of issue of keeping routes the same....

If I'm an advocate of adopting a "blank slate" approach, and I realize that every route doesn't have to be changed in a network redrawn from scratch, then I wouldn't take issue with routes being left alone, exactly as they are....

 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

The definition of a blank slate approach isn't the issue..... The issue is what you went on to saying afterwards, which was:

You are clearly exuding some sort of issue of keeping routes the same....

If I'm an advocate of adopting a "blank slate" approach, and I realize that every route doesn't have to be changed in a network redrawn from scratch, then I wouldn't take issue with routes being left alone, exactly as they are....

 

 

It's one thing if the combined planning/data collection/public outreach process genuinely results in some routes being left alone.  That's always a possibility.

 

It's quite another thing to start with an absolute decree that certain specific routes are sacred cows which can never be changed under any circumstances. That would undermine the whole process system-wide.

[GreatOne2k]

24 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

It's one thing if the combined planning/data collection/public outreach process genuinely results in some routes being left alone.  That's always a possibility.

 

It's quite another thing to start with an absolute decree that certain specific routes are sacred cows which can never be changed under any circumstances. That would undermine the whole process system-wide.

 

SBS routes would be a bit harder to change (look at all those machines that would have to be moved around)

[MysteriousBtrain]

1 minute ago, GreatOne2k said:

 

SBS routes would be a bit harder to change (look at all those machines that would have to be moved around)

If anything it would be the local variants that would be changed. I already see the splitting the Bx12 local somehow.

[Deucey]

28 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

If anything it would be the local variants that would be changed. I already see the splitting the Bx12 local somehow.

Should split the SBS somewhere near Jacobi Hospital since the damn things run in bunches because of crowding.

[paulrivera]

41 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Should split the SBS somewhere near Jacobi Hospital since the damn things run in bunches because of crowding.

Oh dear God no, that would be a disaster. Too many people go to Bay Plaza from Fordham for that to even work.

They have to do SOMETHING about the Bx12 Local/SBS tho. The SBS carries too many people and the local does a bad job relieving the SBS. That and a couple of school trippers on the Pelham Parkway end. Nothing like seeing literally 70 school kids trying to cram onto the same damn bus with another 80 people already on it at 4pm.

[B35 via Church]

2 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

It's one thing if the combined planning/data collection/public outreach process genuinely results in some routes being left alone.  That's always a possibility.

It's quite another thing to start with an absolute decree that certain specific routes are sacred cows which can never be changed under any circumstances. That would undermine the whole process system-wide.

In terms of the actual route{s} that would end up remaining unaltered either way, it makes zero difference if the MTA [derived by those same route{s} using cold hard data, etc.], or if the MTA [resorted to some iniquitous methodology of having those routes exempt from being analyzed to begin with].....

You can still redraw a network from scratch & still maintain some routes as skeletons for that network..... You went on to define what a "blank slate" entailed, you state that it was obvious - but yet you still have this issue about routes being left alone...... All this nonsense about [sacred cows] & [reworking everything, but leave my bus route alone], is much ado about nothing.... It's one thing to be cynical, but this narrative you're running with here, leaves much to be desired.....

What's funny about the whole undermining bit, is the MTA's baby (as I dub it) a.k.a. SBS in & of itself.... It would be an embarrassment if they were to redraw any of those routes .... I don't believe the MTA is that far gone to create so much double-work in somehow undoing so much of what they've done to have all these SBS routes running as they are.... So I guess right off the bat, the concept of redrawing the network from scratch is marred or somehow tainted huh.....

Furthermore, why does it have to be this rarity that some route{s} genuinely, under a redrawn network, ends up being the same, before & after the fact....

 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

6 hours ago, GreatOne2k said:

SBS routes would be a bit harder to change (look at all those machines that would have to be moved around)

A tap-based fare collection system would make off-board fare payment obsolete anyway.

[B35 via Church]

Anything to try to justify routes not being left as they are in a redrawn network.....

Yeah, let's uproot all of the TVM's currently installed throughout the city, due to the advent of smart technology.....

Interesting how the token got phased out as an accepted form of payment well over a decade ago & the same damn turnstiles are implanted throughout the subway system

[Lawrence St]

11 hours ago, paulrivera said:

Oh dear God no, that would be a disaster. Too many people go to Bay Plaza from Fordham for that to even work.

They have to do SOMETHING about the Bx12 Local/SBS tho. The SBS carries too many people and the local does a bad job relieving the SBS. That and a couple of school trippers on the Pelham Parkway end. Nothing like seeing literally 70 school kids trying to cram onto the same damn bus with another 80 people already on it at 4pm.

Fordham is hell as it is already. Splitting the Bx12 local would cause so much crowding it would be like all the riders from the  crammed into one place.

What they need to do about the Bx12 is stop having it short turn when the SBS is running. The only reason why the SBS is so crowded is because that's the only line that takes you directly from Inwood to Bay Plaza where as the Bx12 Local does not. I guarantee you if we were to test this service pattern for a week, the loads on the SBS would go low since both the SBS and LCL share the same end points. 

[GreatOne2k]

7 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Fordham is hell as it is already. Splitting the Bx12 local would cause so much crowding it would be like all the riders from the  crammed into one place.

What they need to do about the Bx12 is stop having it short turn when the SBS is running. The only reason why the SBS is so crowded is because that's the only line that takes you directly from Inwood to Bay Plaza where as the Bx12 Local does not. I guarantee you if we were to test this service pattern for a week, the loads on the SBS would go low since both the SBS and LCL share the same end points. 

 

Is the SBS just as crowded on summer weekends when the local goes to Inwood (and Bay Plaza after Orchard Beach service ends)? 

The SBS and local on Saturday evening after 10pm both run the full route for about 30 minutes, on summer weekends after 8-9pm, the local and SBS run the same route (for the most part, on Sunday buses go to/from Edson Avenue until around 9:00pm). 

[paulrivera]

1 hour ago, GreatOne2k said:

Is the SBS just as crowded on summer weekends when the local goes to Inwood (and Bay Plaza after Orchard Beach service ends)? 

Pretty much, yea.

Not every local goes to Inwood during the Summer tho. Some still terminate at Sedgwick, and the ones that do go to Inwood during the day use a different (unmarked) stand to terminate.

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

Pretty much, yea.

Not every local goes to Inwood during the Summer tho. Some still terminate at Sedgwick, and the ones that do go to Inwood during the day use a different (unmarked) stand to terminate.

Which is dumb tbh. The local is meant to RELIEVE the crowding not throw it all onto the SBS.

[R68OnBroadway]

On 5/21/2018 at 6:11 PM, GreatOne2k said:

Can't combine NYCT and MTA Bus completely, MTA Bus still has the blank check, thus will still be treated a bit differently.

Sorry for bumping this thread, but what exactly do you mean by "blank check"? Is it because the city funds it while the state funds NYCT Bus?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

33 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Sorry for bumping this thread, but what exactly do you mean by "blank check"? Is it because the city funds it while the state funds NYCT Bus?

Previously the City gave funding to run bus routes that were run by private companies in order to provide adequate service to areas without subways. When Bus took over the private routes, the agreement was that the  would do so and the City would continue to provide the funding. It isn't completely a blank check because service is still cut, but there tends to be less cuts and service is a bit more reasonable. There are definitely some lines that would be rush hour only if they weren't under Bus.