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KK 6 Ave Local

If you could completely redo the NYC subway system, what would you do?

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I know actually doing this in real life would be a big nonstarter, but if you could redo the entire NYC subway system, how would you redo it? What new lines would you make? Reply with your proposals, opinions on others' proposals, anything like that.

 

Challenge: Assume you only have $100,000,000,000 (100 billion)

 

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My question for you is why? The current layout of the system exists as it does due to over a century of shifting populations, trends, and to get passengers to the heart of the city. There's too many threads initiated by fantasy here IMO.

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I think it's a fun thought exercise. 

I'd keep the basic concept of four-track (with express) lines under major avenues in mid-town Manhattan. I'd have more of them, including every major avenue from 2nd Ave to 10th Ave. I'd also keep a four-track line under Broadway. 

That would be the core. Everything else would split off from that. 

I'd definitely ditch interlining. Each four-track line would split into two standard (non-express) two-track lines at some sensible point toward each end. Some splits would be within Manhattan, some further out. Some of these "branches" would accommodate crosstown movement. 

Residential areas on the outskirts not adequately served by this arrangement would be served by a network of light rail lines that feed into the subway lines. 

This considers covering an area the same as today. Thinking bigger, a truly ideal system would ignore state lines and serve NJ almost as much as it serves the outer boroughs. 

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I'll play:

Four track expresses on 2 Av and 10th Av that turn east or have spurs to serve Manhattan crosstown lines from the Hudson:

Three to the Bronx with the one on 125 St splitting to serve Co-Op City interlined with a duly extended (6) and the Fordham or 174 St line serving Soundview and joining with a Queens line to Nassau;

One additional Queens Latitudinal line splitting to serve Northern Bl to Nassau near Great Neck; and the other Metropolitan Av to St Albans, with a spur to serve JFK and the Rockaways.

Three latitudinal cross-Brooklyn lines from the shore to JFK and to Nassau;

Connecting Staten Island from St George to the BMT Broadway Line and continuing to Tottenville and to the Outerbridge and with a spur to Bayonne; and one latitudinal line that connects to Brooklyn and continues to JFK or Nassau; 

PATH would be (NYCT) controlled and connected to the Lex at Astor Pl (as originally planned); and

3 Av would have a intraborough subway from Bruckner Bl and the Deegan then curve east to join (2)(5) at 180 St to serve as the local while (2) and (5) are express to Wakefield and Dyre Av to cut down (2) runtime.

Edited by Deucey
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To cover outer boroughs I would finish the Archer ave subway as planned and finish the (F) extension to floral park, and research extending the (7) east from main Street 

2nd Ave subway would be built with express tracks and cross platform transfer at Grand Street built

I would rebuild subway service in the bronx on 3rd Ave with service from the 2nd Ave subway 

Contingent on repair of the Rogers junction the I would replace the (3) to new lots with the (5) 

I would commence construction on the Utica ave subway which would be the (4) phase 1 to Kings hwy and phase 2 to Kinga plaza

I also would commence extending the (2) from Brooklyn college to Kings plaza

The (3) would be extended down Nostrand to ave U

And I would connect Rockaway Beach Branch service to the subway to JFK airport

 

Edited by BreeddekalbL
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I'll jump in

I'd keep the existing system with a Program For Action-ish kinda thing. 

72 Street-2 Avenue Express tracks start. with the only other intermediate (express) stop being 116 Street then continuing to the Bronx to 3rd Avenue

Local SAS tracks go to Broadway, Express tracks Finish Second Avenue. 

Queens Blvd is 6 tracks instead of 4. 2 53 Street Local. 2 53 Street Express. 2 63 Street Super Express.  (track connections to Crosstown and Archer lines)

Archer Lines Completed as planned. 

(7) line is 4 tracks instead of 2-3.

White Plains Line. 4 tracks instead of 2. Local tracks ((2)) To Wakefield. 2 Express Tracks ((5)) to Dyre Avenue; 149 Street curve is fixed and 3 Av - 149 is an Express Stop.

Rogers Junction is fixed and limited to only Nostrand-7 Av and Lexington- New Lots. 

Jamaica Line. 4 tracks instead of 2, past Myrtle 6 tracks. 2 Local. 2 Express, 2 connecting to Second Avenue (F) express tracks

A slightly more foolish one but interesting one as well. 

(Instead of Fulton Line, The Canarsie (L) Line keeps its branch to Lefferts Blvd and the Atlantic Avenue is 4 tracks instead of 2 with the (A) (C) and (E) serving it)

Lower Manhattan is Re Arranged

if I had a map. I'd Show you

 

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5 hours ago, LGA Link N train said:

I'll jump in

I'd keep the existing system with a Program For Action-ish kinda thing. 

72 Street-2 Avenue Express tracks start. with the only other intermediate (express) stop being 116 Street then continuing to the Bronx to 3rd Avenue

Local SAS tracks go to Broadway, Express tracks Finish Second Avenue. 

Queens Blvd is 6 tracks instead of 4. 2 53 Street Local. 2 53 Street Express. 2 63 Street Super Express.  (track connections to Crosstown and Archer lines)

Archer Lines Completed as planned. 

(7) line is 4 tracks instead of 2-3.

White Plains Line. 4 tracks instead of 2. Local tracks ((2)) To Wakefield. 2 Express Tracks ((5)) to Dyre Avenue; 149 Street curve is fixed and 3 Av - 149 is an Express Stop.

Rogers Junction is fixed and limited to only Nostrand-7 Av and Lexington- New Lots. 

Jamaica Line. 4 tracks instead of 2, past Myrtle 6 tracks. 2 Local. 2 Express, 2 connecting to Second Avenue (F) express tracks

A slightly more foolish one but interesting one as well. 

(Instead of Fulton Line, The Canarsie (L) Line keeps its branch to Lefferts Blvd and the Atlantic Avenue is 4 tracks instead of 2 with the (A) (C) and (E) serving it)

Lower Manhattan is Re Arranged

if I had a map. I'd Show you

 

Could you possibly make a map?

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Crosstown Line links to Franklin shuttle and Lower Myrtle is never demolished.

53rd St is four tracks. There is no 63 St line. Fulton is four tracks.

Hoyt-Schemerhorn's hub is located at Atlantic. Queens Plaza is located at QBP.

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Here's my plan:

Second Avenue line (T)- replaces (B) on Brighton, (B) becomes Myrtle-6 Ave service along with rush hours only (M) 

(N) (Q) SAS Local 125 Street crosstown, (T) express on lower level to Third Avenue in Bronx

Second Avenue (V)(teal)- Bay Parkway to Queens Bypass (super-express line) and Archer

Sixth Avenue (H)(orange)- 86 Street and FH Parkway up the Culver Local tracks, then to Queens superexpress to Rockaway Beach 116th

(F) uses Culver express and 53 Street

53 Street layout:

(E)(F) on express tracks

(M) on local, connects with expanded (G) to QBL

(R) rerouted to Astoria, uses 36-39 yard

(N) rerouted to Second Avenue and 125 crosstown, I mentioned this before

(C)(D)(F) get more frequency

A line between the (1) and (4) in Bronx, just began to plan this line out so that's all I have

(4)(5) to Livonia, (2)(3) to Nostrand,  deinterlining Rogers

That's all

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Here's my go of it: 

-Make the Concourse line 4 tracks and have a (D) train extension to Eastchester. 

-The 2nd Avenue Subway has three lines. The (T) will act as the local with the (U) and (V) as expresses between Manhattan and Queens through 63rd Street. The express tracks would begin at 55th after they curve from the (F) and end after Chatham Square. The (T) would run under 3rd Avenue in the Bronx with a middle track for peak direction express service. Hannover Square would have 3-4 tracks to meet with capacity demands. I imagine the extension into Brooklyn has the 2nd Ave lines join existing routes or have it's own subway line under Atlantic Avenue (it would not use Court Street station; that stays as a museum). 

-Study the feasibility of a (7) train extension into College Point or Whitestone. Ruling out NJ because there isn't really any support for that right now...

-Reconstruct Roger's Junction.

-Late night (C) train service. 

That's it.

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52 minutes ago, KK 6 Ave Local said:

Here's my plan:

Second Avenue line (T)- replaces (B) on Brighton, (B) becomes Myrtle-6 Ave service along with rush hours only (M) 

(N) (Q) SAS Local 125 Street crosstown, (T) express on lower level to Third Avenue in Bronx

Second Avenue (V)(teal)- Bay Parkway to Queens Bypass (super-express line) and Archer

Sixth Avenue (H)(orange)- 86 Street and FH Parkway up the Culver Local tracks, then to Queens superexpress to Rockaway Beach 116th

(F) uses Culver express and 53 Street

53 Street layout:

(E)(F) on express tracks

(M) on local, connects with expanded (G) to QBL

(R) rerouted to Astoria, uses 36-39 yard

(N) rerouted to Second Avenue and 125 crosstown, I mentioned this before

(C)(D)(F) get more frequency

A line between the (1) and (4) in Bronx, just began to plan this line out so that's all I have

(4)(5) to Livonia, (2)(3) to Nostrand,  deinterlining Rogers

That's all

Also:

Archer and Hillside Avenue lines as planned, (E) (V) to Laurelton and (J)(Z) (V)to Queens Village and (F) to Springfield Blvd.

(7) to Whitestone and College point.

Edited by KK 6 Ave Local
Arthur's Fist

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Some more of my plans: Queens Parkway Line (this was a plan from the 20s that could benefit Queens and Williamsburg)

10th Avenue Line, with branches to a new Northern Blvd line and Webster Avenue in the Bronx 

A (D) train extension to Co-op City

(A) train extension to the Bronx

Hi-Speed Rail lines connecting the South Bronx, Jamaica, Flushing, Newark, Secaucus, Laurelton, and Queens Village and other points near the city limits in Queens, maybe even extending into Nassau

Edited by KK 6 Ave Local
why not xd

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Manhattan would have 5 north-south four-track trunk lines, independent of each other and further away from each other to have better geographic coverage.

  • One line completely under Broadway, basically the original plans for the very first subway. I expect this to be the busiest line in the entire system.
    • Entirely 4-track btwn Dyckman St and Whitehall St / South Ferry in Manhattan
      • All tracks continue into Brooklyn via the quad bore Montague St tunnel and become the Eastern Parkway Line
    • Local service continues north to Van Cordtlandt Park, express service continues to runs via Fordham Road to Co-op City
    • Lenox branch moved to 8 Ave (see below)
  • Lexington Ave, primary East Side trunk
    • Same route between 125 St and Spring St, but continues under Centre / Nassau / Broad Sts.
    • Four-track section continues into the Bronx along Grand Concourse
      • Local tracks terminate at Gun Hill Road, express tracks continue along Gun Hill Road to Co-op City
    • Four-track section continues into Brooklyn along Fulton St
  • 8 Ave / Hudson St, primary West Side trunk
    • 4-track section between 96 St and Houston St
    • Two northern branches
      • Frederick Douglass Blvd / University Ave to Lehman College
      • Lenox Ave / 149 St / Westchester Ave to Pelham Bay Park
    • Two southern branches
      • Express tracks divert under Canal St to the south side of the Manhattan Bridge
      • Local tracks continue to South Ferry and into Brooklyn via the Joralemon Tunnel
    • Both branches merge at Dekalb Ave and continue as the Fourth Ave trunk in Brooklyn
  • 2 Ave, East Side relief line
    • 4-track section between Grand St and 3 Ave / 163 St
    • 2 northern branches
      • Local tracks continue up 3 Ave to Fordham Plaza
      • Express tracks continue up Boston Road, becoming the WPR Line
    • 2 southern branches
      • Express tracks divert to the north side of the Manhattan Bridge and becomes the Brighton Line in Brooklyn
      • Local tracks continue down Water St to South Ferry
        • Provision for a tunnel to Governors Island and Red Hook
  • 6 Ave / QBL
    • Local trains terminate at South Ferry
    • Express tracks continue down 6 Ave, turn under Fulton St, and becomes the Culver Line in Brooklyn
    • Continues via quad-core 59 St tunnel into Queens and becomes the QBL
      • East River tunnel includes Roosevelt Island stop
      • No 63 St tunnel

Plus additional crosstown lines:

  • Houston St
    • Jamaica Line trains would terminate at Houston St / Hudson St, with provision for expansion into Brooklyn.
  • 14 St / 10 Ave
    • Same as today's (L) but extended up 10 Ave to 72 St - Broadway.
  • 34 St / Northern Blvd
    • Provision for expansion across the Hudson River to Weehawken
  • 42 St / Roosevelt Ave
    • Same as today's (7) with the Queensboro Plaza detour removed
    • Provision for expansion across the Hudson River to Union City
  • 50 St
    • Takes over the Port Washington Branch in Queens
    • Provision for expansion to Union City
  • 125 St
    • Continues as the Astoria Line in Queens and the Crosstown Line in Brooklyn

Lastly, some through-routing added to the mainline network:

  • Atlantic Ave 4-tracked and extended into Lower Manhattan, GCT turned into a through station, forming 3 new regional rail trunks
    • Atlantic Ave - Dtwn Brooklyn - Fulton St - Exchange Place - Secaucus - Hoboken Division Lines
    • Atlantic Ave - Dtwn Brooklyn - Fulton St - Union Sq - GCT - MNR Lines
    • Morris / Essex / Montclair Lines - Newark Broad St - Hoboken - Union Sq - GCT
  • All commuter trains through-routed through Penn Station
  • PATH replaced by mainline trains, expanded HBLR, and potentially new subway tunnels from Manhattan

 

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8 hours ago, Caelestor said:

Manhattan would have 5 north-south four-track trunk lines, independent of each other and further away from each other to have better geographic coverage.

  • One line completely under Broadway, basically the original plans for the very first subway. I expect this to be the busiest line in the entire system.
    • Entirely 4-track btwn Dyckman St and Whitehall St / South Ferry in Manhattan
      • All tracks continue into Brooklyn via the quad bore Montague St tunnel and become the Eastern Parkway Line
    • Local service continues north to Van Cordtlandt Park, express service continues to runs via Fordham Road to Co-op City
    • Lenox branch moved to 8 Ave (see below)
  • Lexington Ave, primary East Side trunk
    • Same route between 125 St and Spring St, but continues under Centre / Nassau / Broad Sts.
    • Four-track section continues into the Bronx along Grand Concourse
      • Local tracks terminate at Gun Hill Road, express tracks continue along Gun Hill Road to Co-op City
    • Four-track section continues into Brooklyn along Fulton St
  • 8 Ave / Hudson St, primary West Side trunk
    • 4-track section between 96 St and Houston St
    • Two northern branches
      • Frederick Douglass Blvd / University Ave to Lehman College
      • Lenox Ave / 149 St / Westchester Ave to Pelham Bay Park
    • Two southern branches
      • Express tracks divert under Canal St to the south side of the Manhattan Bridge
      • Local tracks continue to South Ferry and into Brooklyn via the Joralemon Tunnel
    • Both branches merge at Dekalb Ave and continue as the Fourth Ave trunk in Brooklyn
  • 2 Ave, East Side relief line
    • 4-track section between Grand St and 3 Ave / 163 St
    • 2 northern branches
      • Local tracks continue up 3 Ave to Fordham Plaza
      • Express tracks continue up Boston Road, becoming the WPR Line
    • 2 southern branches
      • Express tracks divert to the north side of the Manhattan Bridge and becomes the Brighton Line in Brooklyn
      • Local tracks continue down Water St to South Ferry
        • Provision for a tunnel to Governors Island and Red Hook
  • 6 Ave / QBL
    • Local trains terminate at South Ferry
    • Express tracks continue down 6 Ave, turn under Fulton St, and becomes the Culver Line in Brooklyn
    • Continues via quad-core 59 St tunnel into Queens and becomes the QBL
      • East River tunnel includes Roosevelt Island stop
      • No 63 St tunnel

Plus additional crosstown lines:

  • Houston St
    • Jamaica Line trains would terminate at Houston St / Hudson St, with provision for expansion into Brooklyn.
  • 14 St / 10 Ave
    • Same as today's (L) but extended up 10 Ave to 72 St - Broadway.
  • 34 St / Northern Blvd
    • Provision for expansion across the Hudson River to Weehawken
  • 42 St / Roosevelt Ave
    • Same as today's (7) with the Queensboro Plaza detour removed
    • Provision for expansion across the Hudson River to Union City
  • 50 St
    • Takes over the Port Washington Branch in Queens
    • Provision for expansion to Union City
  • 125 St
    • Continues as the Astoria Line in Queens and the Crosstown Line in Brooklyn

Lastly, some through-routing added to the mainline network:

  • Atlantic Ave 4-tracked and extended into Lower Manhattan, GCT turned into a through station, forming 3 new regional rail trunks
    • Atlantic Ave - Dtwn Brooklyn - Fulton St - Exchange Place - Secaucus - Hoboken Division Lines
    • Atlantic Ave - Dtwn Brooklyn - Fulton St - Union Sq - GCT - MNR Lines
    • Morris / Essex / Montclair Lines - Newark Broad St - Hoboken - Union Sq - GCT
  • All commuter trains through-routed through Penn Station
  • PATH replaced by mainline trains, expanded HBLR, and potentially new subway tunnels from Manhattan

 

You should totally make a map for this, I would love to see it.

On 6/4/2018 at 10:19 PM, tripleeye49 said:

That's an amazing map maker!

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Who was it again that mentioned keeping the Myrtle Avenue line south of Broadway then having it go over the Brooklyn Bridge then terminating at the Center tracks of Chambers Street? Because personally, I'd rather have that as the Current (brownM)

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