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Lil 57

If you could create/change any bus line in NYC what would it be?

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Truncate the Q2 and Q110 to the Queens Village LIRR station instead of having them terminate at Cross Island and Hempstead Turnpike.

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Posted (edited)

* Splitting the B82...
* Running the B83 straight along Penn....

I've been consistent/steadfast/vociferous on those two ideas for a very long time....

Edited by B35 via Church
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Off the top of my head - with no real research, I'd split Manhattan into three or four zones (roughly 60-80 blocks) and no bus going longitudinal can go further than 10 blocks into another zone unless it's an SBS. So I'd have zones like: 

Broadway Bridge to 168th

168th to 86/96th

86th/96th to 14th

14th to South Ferry 

All non-SBS buses begin/end at at least one subway station, and can't go more than 10-15 blocks into another zone.

SBSes make no more than 3-5 stops in each zone and run 24/7.

But we'd need more subway capacity to make that viable.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/27/2018 at 3:57 PM, Lil 57 said:

If you could create/change any bus line in NYC what would it be and why? 

In no particular order: 

*B47 split route. North (B47), South (B78) 

B47: St. John’s Place to Williamsburg Bridge via Ralph 

B78: Sutter/Rutland to Kings Plaza via Ralph. Part time service to Canarsie via East 80th to Seaview and East 108th. 

*B82. Split 

*B83 direct via Penn Avenue to Van Sideren- Broadway- East New York  

*Fix East New York routes B20, B84 and create 2 new routes to serve Spring Creek, East New York and possibly Canarsie. 

Got a few more. But right now these are most that i could come up with. 

PS: New York City could use a numbering scheme. 

Edited by Future ENY OP
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Posted (edited)
On 5/27/2018 at 6:02 PM, NY1635 said:

Truncate the Q2 and Q110 to the Queens Village LIRR station instead of having them terminate at Cross Island and Hempstead Turnpike.

Truncate? 

I'd prefer that they serve the station for accessibility but end at their existing terminals, or swap one of them with the Q36 via Springfield Blvd (Or Hempstead Ave/Jamaica Ave split) to accomplish that. 

Edited by N6 Limited

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14 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

...PS: New York City could use a numbering scheme. 

You mean like LA:

1-99 - service to downtown LA

100-199 - east-west service that doesn't go to Downtown LA

200-299 - north-south service that doesn't go to downtown LA

300-399 - limited stop

400-499 - express/freeway service to downtown LA

500-599 - express/freeway that doesn't go to downtown LA

600-699 - special shuttles

700-799 - MetroRapid/super-limited service

=====

I think the borough prefix is smart here. I just wish that there was more interborough local bus, and that limited stop and SBS didn't use local bus numbers.

I'd also wish there was a scheme where - like the interstate highways - you could look at a route number's first or last digit and know if it was a east-west crosstown or a north-south route.

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14 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

PS: New York City could use a numbering scheme. 

Like Staten Island.

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I think that Brooklyn and Queens should have their prefixes combined given that they share a land border and many routes from each side head to the other. It would help more I think with identification as you wouldn't need to check the lines in Queens and Brooklyn to see which routes pass from where one lives. I would only support this given that there was a numbering scheme though to help make it easier to find which routes go where.

 

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1 hour ago, Deucey said:

You mean like LA:

1-99 - service to downtown LA

100-199 - east-west service that doesn't go to Downtown LA

200-299 - north-south service that doesn't go to downtown LA

300-399 - limited stop

400-499 - express/freeway service to downtown LA

500-599 - express/freeway that doesn't go to downtown LA

600-699 - special shuttles

700-799 - MetroRapid/super-limited service

=====

I think the borough prefix is smart here. I just wish that there was more interborough local bus, and that limited stop and SBS didn't use local bus numbers.

I'd also wish there was a scheme where - like the interstate highways - you could look at a route number's first or last digit and know if it was a east-west crosstown or a north-south route.

I think the numbering is confusing. Every bourough is like it’s own city so trying to treat nyc as one whole wouldn’t work. The borough prefixes is smart and simple. 

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7 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

I think that Brooklyn and Queens should have their prefixes combined given that they share a land border and many routes from each side head to the other. It would help more I think with identification as you wouldn't need to check the lines in Queens and Brooklyn to see which routes pass from where one lives. I would only support this given that there was a numbering scheme though to help make it easier to find which routes go where.

I'd want no part of combining the bus route identifiers for Brooklyn (Kings) & Queens... Regardless if they're are on the same land mass, they're still two separate counties..... There are more individual intraborough Brooklyn routes & more individual intraborough Queens routes, than there are interborough routes that serve both Brooklyn & Queens in some facet.....

I wouldn't be on board with it either way, but it'd make a little more sense if you were just talking about the Brooklyn-Queens interborough routes... To have all of Brooklyn's & Queens' local routes have one unified prefix though? I don't see where it's remotely worth it.....

I'm much more concerned with futurizing/de-antiquating (lol) the bus network, than anything nomenclature related.....

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On 5/31/2018 at 5:27 PM, N6 Limited said:

Truncate? 

I'd prefer that they serve the station for accessibility but end at their existing terminals, or swap one of them with the Q36 via Springfield Blvd (Or Hempstead Ave/Jamaica Ave split) to accomplish that. 

There was a plan to send the Q110 to Floral Park and the Q36 to Belmont Park during the DOT days

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13 hours ago, Q43LTD said:

There was a plan to send the Q110 to Floral Park and the Q36 to Belmont Park during the DOT days

They might do that with the bus restructuring if they want certain main roads to have non diverging service. The only thing is that the Q2 and Q110 give Belmont Racetrack access to Jamaica Center and Hillside Ave.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/31/2018 at 12:18 AM, Deucey said:

Off the top of my head - with no real research, I'd split Manhattan into three or four zones (roughly 60-80 blocks) and no bus going longitudinal can go further than 10 blocks into another zone unless it's an SBS. So I'd have zones like: 

Broadway Bridge to 168th

168th to 86/96th

86th/96th to 14th

14th to South Ferry 

All non-SBS buses begin/end at at least one subway station, and can't go more than 10-15 blocks into another zone.

SBSes make no more than 3-5 stops in each zone and run 24/7.

But we'd need more subway capacity to make that viable.

I can't agree with those zone restrictions. Any bus contained in that last zone would perform horribly. I mean, look at the current routes running only south of 14 Street, and how their ridership levels are. Imagine truncating the M55 to 14 Street or 29th Street. Having a long route itself isn't the problem. It's the wide range of traffic conditions and passenger loads which can make a long route increasingly unreliable. Super long routes for the sake of it are a problem, though. Look no further than M101 for that.  The M101 has too much on its plate, but splitting it into 3 routes is too much. One split would be fine.

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I can't agree with those zone restrictions. Any bus contained in that last zone would perform horribly. I mean, look at the current routes running only south of 14 Street, and how their ridership levels are. Imagine truncating the M55 to 14 Street or 29th Street. Having a long route itself isn't the problem. It's the wide range of traffic conditions and passenger loads which can make a long route increasingly unreliable. Super long routes for the sake of it are a problem, though. Look no further than M101 for that.  The M101 has too much on its plate, but splitting it into 3 routes is too much. One split would be fine.

The backbone of the idea is funnelling people who are doing north-south journeys onto trains while orienting bus service to predominantly crosstown runs or neighborhood circulators.

But more subway capacity is needed for this to work, along with a daily pass for cash payers or implementation of a three-legged transfer system (bus-train-bus, like most municipal transit systems (used to) do), as well as more north-south SBS spanning at least half the island.

So unless CBTC is done completely in Manhattan, along with ADA compliance in full, and possibly SAS to Hanover Square (or, IMO, to Montague and to Red Hook), it's either:

1) going to create as many problems as it solves;

2) going to need more bus lanes with physical barriers from mixed traffic from South Ferry to 125th at least (there really needs to be a Westside SBS); or

3) going to need to beimplemented with introduction of longitudinal SBS lines to pick up the riders that do need surface long haul bus rides.

Having ridden the old M5 and M55 (and M20) to the ferry, there aren't many riders getting on before 14th St going past Canal St (and I used to do it to waste time when I rented rooms while SI apartment hunting), so it could work and work well - and with an SBS on the Westside that can get out of Battery Park and WTC quickly, it could relieve SI-related crowding on the IRT and BMT.

Gotta think differently since the old paradigms of bus and rail service aren't sufficient now.

 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Deucey said:

The backbone of the idea is funnelling people who are doing north-south journeys onto trains while orienting bus service to predominantly crosstown runs or neighborhood circulators.

But more subway capacity is needed for this to work, along with a daily pass for cash payers or implementation of a three-legged transfer system (bus-train-bus, like most municipal transit systems (used to) do), as well as more north-south SBS spanning at least half the island.

So unless CBTC is done completely in Manhattan, along with ADA compliance in full, and possibly SAS to Hanover Square (or, IMO, to Montague and to Red Hook), it's either:

1) going to create as many problems as it solves;

2) going to need more bus lanes with physical barriers from mixed traffic from South Ferry to 125th at least (there really needs to be a Westside SBS); or

3) going to need to beimplemented with introduction of longitudinal SBS lines to pick up the riders that do need surface long haul bus rides.

Having ridden the old M5 and M55 (and M20) to the ferry, there aren't many riders getting on before 14th St going past Canal St (and I used to do it to waste time when I rented rooms while SI apartment hunting), so it could work and work well - and with an SBS on the Westside that can get out of Battery Park and WTC quickly, it could relieve SI-related crowding on the IRT and BMT.

Gotta think differently since the old paradigms of bus and rail service aren't sufficient now.

 

That's why I can't jump on to this.  I don't think we need to add more people onto the subway, even with signal and capacity improvements. In fact, I think we need to be adding more people onto the buses. The subway will always have its place in this city, whether buses exist or not. However, for so long, the MTA has been able to get away with chopping bus service and just letting bus service run poorly. At some point, even with capacity improvements, we'll be back to square one with trying to add more capacity. 

This is the same reason why all the transplants coming into New York don't use the buses like the former native residents used to. Nobody wants to get serious about bus service, and that's why you have continuous decreases in ridership and service, while only focusing on the subways. Creating zones and restricting bus routes to run within certain zones will without a doubt, destroy ridership faster than NICE bus. 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven
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23 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

That's why I can't jump on to this.  I don't think we need to add more people onto the subway, even with signal and capacity improvements. In fact, I think we need to be adding more people onto the buses. The subway will always have its place in this city, whether buses exist or not. However, for so long, the MTA has been able to get away with chopping bus service and just letting bus service run poorly. At some point, even with capacity improvements, we'll be back to square one with trying to add more capacity. 

This is the same reason why all the transplants coming into New York don't use the buses like the former native residents used to. Nobody wants to get serious about bus service, and that's why you have continuous decreases in ridership and service, while only focusing on the subways. Creating zones and restricting bus routes to run within certain zones will without a doubt, destroy ridership faster than NICE bus. 

Even in places where there isn't "much" gentrification, the bus networks are being realigned and reimagined in response to the ridership fall.

And because more people are looking to walkability and transit access as important factors in where they move to, it's a missed opportunity for transit to stick with long haul routes for "efficiency" versus neighborhood shuttling for ridership.

You're not gonna see masses ride from BPC to 14th St on a bus when they can take (1)(A)(C)(E)(R)(W). But you might see them hop on a bus from WTC to South Street Seaport for lunch meetings versus Uber if it could get them there in 10 minutes and you knew it'd actually arrive.

Same neighborhood, why take M20 to Chambers St when there's no guarantee it'll actually show up close to on time because it's leaving Whitehall Street 30 minutes late after bogged down in traffic on 7th and 23rd? Why even take the train when you already ordered the Uber to get you to the theater?

Or if you're uptown and avoiding (A)(C)(B)(D) and just want to go from B-way/155th to 135th YMCA, you can take Bx6 to M2 and walk, but if M2 was held up down Madison and is now 20 minutes late, you've now missed karate. But that Uber or gypsy cab gets you there in 10 minutes for $10 bucks.

Hence the problem in Manhattan - because the system is set up for north-south travel crosstown trips are arduous. And north-south local buses are effectively redundant with subways stopping every 8-12 blocks. But if you retool the buses to facilitate crosstown travel and supplement the trains, and SBS it like the M15 to do that north-south run, you just might make a system effective and resilient.

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33 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Even in places where there isn't "much" gentrification, the bus networks are being realigned and reimagined in response to the ridership fall.

And because more people are looking to walkability and transit access as important factors in where they move to, it's a missed opportunity for transit to stick with long haul routes for "efficiency" versus neighborhood shuttling for ridership.

You're not gonna see masses ride from BPC to 14th St on a bus when they can take (1)(A)(C)(E)(R)(W). But you might see them hop on a bus from WTC to South Street Seaport for lunch meetings versus Uber if it could get them there in 10 minutes and you knew it'd actually arrive.

Same neighborhood, why take M20 to Chambers St when there's no guarantee it'll actually show up close to on time because it's leaving Whitehall Street 30 minutes late after bogged down in traffic on 7th and 23rd? Why even take the train when you already ordered the Uber to get you to the theater?

Or if you're uptown and avoiding (A)(C)(B)(D) and just want to go from B-way/155th to 135th YMCA, you can take Bx6 to M2 and walk, but if M2 was held up down Madison and is now 20 minutes late, you've now missed karate. But that Uber or gypsy cab gets you there in 10 minutes for $10 bucks.

Hence the problem in Manhattan - because the system is set up for north-south travel crosstown trips are arduous. And north-south local buses are effectively redundant with subways stopping every 8-12 blocks. But if you retool the buses to facilitate crosstown travel and supplement the trains, and SBS it like the M15 to do that north-south run, you just might make a system effective and resilient.

Actually BPC is a perfect example of the horrondeous bus service the (MTA) runs. The Downtown Connection bus is frequent, free and PACKED. I usually get it from Whole Foods to make my way to my meetings in BPC and I usually wind up getting that before an M9 comes. The M20 isn't much better.

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You're gonna have a hard time convincig people to use the buses downtown. They're absolutely horrible: slow, infrequent, very unreliable. I had to wait 30 minutes for an m9 just to get to the lower east side from the whole foods stop (back before the construction)... and most of the people who got on at that stop were just elementary school kids and their babysitters.

The m20 hardly carries and the vast majority of the riders are off by 23 street, considering that north of 14 street, you're better off just walking.... I hardly ever see any get on to ride southbound.

The m22 picks up a few along Chambers but frankly it's just not popular. And I've met and occasionally beaten m22s walking from north end avenue to city hall...

The m5 and m55 from what I notice carry air. That said i hardly ride that route...

The M103 can get decent loads northbound though.

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54 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Actually BPC is a perfect example of the horrondeous bus service the (MTA) runs. The Downtown Connection bus is frequent, free and PACKED. I usually get it from Whole Foods to make my way to my meetings in BPC and I usually wind up getting that before an M9 comes. The M20 isn't much better.

That's why I think creating zones and orienting service east-west in Manhattan, and fully making them operate like circulators like the Downtown Connection, would not only increase ridership, it'd make connectivity better and neighborhoods more livable and visitable.

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Posted (edited)

 

Quote

Or if you're uptown and avoiding (A)(C)(B)(D) and just want to go from B-way/155th to 135th YMCA, you can take Bx6 to M2 and walk, but if M2 was held up down Madison and is now 20 minutes late, you've now missed karate. But that Uber or gypsy cab gets you there in 10 minutes for $10 bucks.

Hence the problem in Manhattan - because the system is set up for north-south travel crosstown trips are arduous. And north-south local buses are effectively redundant with subways stopping every 8-12 blocks. But if you retool the buses to facilitate crosstown travel and supplement the trains, and SBS it like the M15 to do that north-south run, you just might make a system effective and resilient.

How exactly are you measuring redundancy? If you're saying its redundant just because the subway runs below it or near it, then that's not being redundant. It would be redundant if they had low ridership, but that's not the case.

Just look at how many people use the M101/M102/M103. Seniors are not the only ones using those buses. Same thing goes for the 5th Avenue routes. Buses have decent loads throughout the day, and can get packed during the rush hour and evenings. The M15 had the 2nd highest ridership in the entire system. On what subway lines are those 14 million riders on the M15 going to fit on? Where are the other people from the other north-south routes going to fit?

 

Also, I'm not  what you mean by the system is set-up for north-south travel. There are multiple crosstown routes in Manhattan. In fact, some of the same north-south routes are also providing crosstown service as well.

You can have neighborhood shuttles in a network. Trying to make the entire network neighborhood shuttles though, is not the way to go. 

Edited by BM5 via Woodhaven

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Deucey said:

That's why I think creating zones and orienting service east-west in Manhattan, and fully making them operate like circulators like the Downtown Connection, would not only increase ridership, it'd make connectivity better and neighborhoods more livable and visitable.

Unfortunately I have to disagree. What we're getting is more people moving here that will do anything to not take a bus and will just jump in a cab. I see it regularly on the SBS lines that go crosstown. We need a bus network that compliments the subway. You also seem to forget how many neighorhoods don't have subway access and have disabled populations that would vehemently oppose such a set up. In fact when the (MTA) has moved to eliminate bus service, elected officials have moved to threaten with lawsuits, citing the need for such buses. The X27 still exists in Bay Ridge for this very reason because it serves a part of Bay Ridge FAR from the subway with a large elderly population. It pains the (MTA) to run the X27 and X28. They have tried numerous times to eliminate both lines over the years, and each time the communities have vehemently fought back and forced them to restore service. You can't run such a set up when so many subway stations STILL aren't accessible. 

If anything, we need to restructure more routes to run similar lengths where possible with fewer stops so that buses move but aren't curtailed to serve those who need them most.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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33 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Unfortunately I have to disagree. What we're getting is more people moving here that will do anything to not take a bus and will just jump in a cab. I see it regularly on the SBS lines that go crosstown. We need a bus network that compliments the subway. You also seem to forget how many neighorhoods don't have subway access and have disabled populations that would vehemently oppose such a set up. In fact when the (MTA) has moved to eliminate bus service, elected officials have moved to threaten with lawsuits, citing the need for such buses. The X27 still exists in Bay Ridge for this very reason because it serves a part of Bay Ridge FAR from the subway with a large elderly population. It pains the (MTA) to run the X27 and X28. They have tried numerous times to eliminate both lines over the years, and each time the communities have vehemently fought back and forced them to restore service. You can't run such a set up when so many subway stations STILL aren't accessible. 

If anything, we need to restructure more routes to run similar lengths where possible with fewer stops so that buses move but aren't curtailed to serve those who need them most.

I'm only referring to Manhattan. Not even touching other boroughs in this since aside from Bx12 and Bx15, the only problems I have outerboro is related to poor dispatching and horrible traffic management by DOT:

4 hours ago, Deucey said:

So unless CBTC is done completely in Manhattan, along with ADA compliance in full, and possibly SAS to Hanover Square (or, IMO, to Montague and to Red Hook), it's either:

1) going to create as many problems as it solves;

2) going to need more bus lanes with physical barriers from mixed traffic from South Ferry to 125th at least (there really needs to be a Westside SBS); or

3) going to need to beimplemented with introduction of longitudinal SBS lines to pick up the riders that do need surface long haul bus rides.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I'm only referring to Manhattan. Not even touching other boroughs in this since aside from Bx12 and Bx15, the only problems I have outerboro is related to poor dispatching and horrible traffic management by DOT:

 

Manhattan is no different. Plenty of handicapped and elderly people that need bus service with inaccesible subways. When I had a blood clot in my leg earlier this year with bronchitis, I could barely walk to and from. The buses were Godsend and the subways with no escalator or elevator were brutal. I remember getting off the subway in Times Square and having to walk to the express bus. It was all I could do to muster up the energy after all of those subway stairs. I literally had to catch my breath before boarding the bus and that was with it kneeled. lol

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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One route that I would change is The Bx39. The route will have 2 variants One local and limited.Local buses follow the pre 2010. Clason Pt to Gun hill rd.

The limited operates full route.It be only local north of Gun hill rd.  The Limited runs on Weekdays only from 6AM-9PM.The local will operate the full route On nights,weekends and the addition of 24 hr service. It a rough idea I had some few years ago.

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