Fastest and most reliable route from West Hempstead to Hunter College?

[67thAve]

I'm going to be attending Hunter College starting in the fall. I will be taking train #907 (arrives at 8:29 to Penn, it's the only direct of the day) in, and am considering various routes via the subway to get from the railroad to Hunter. As I am not a regular subway rider (though I will be, come this fall), I am aware that other members on this forum will have much more knowledge about reliability and speed than I do. The options I am considering are:

1) LIRR to Forest Hills >>> walk to 71st/Continental >>> F to Lexington/63rd >>> walk to Hunter College

The biggest appeal of this route is that I don't need to transfer between subway services. I may also be able to grab a seat at either 71st or when people get off at Roosevelt to transfer to the 7. However, the F, from what I hear, is very delay-prone, and I will have to walk a few blocks from Lex/63rd to Hunter, which may be a bit irritating in inclement weather.

2) LIRR to Woodside >>> 7 express to Queensboro Plaza >>> N/W to Lex/59th >>> 6 to 68th/Hunter College

This route has the benefit of being nearly as direct distance-wise as option #1, and also happens to avoid the walk from Lex/63rd to campus. However, this option requires two transfers. If I can pull of the transfers with minimal wait (which I doubt is possible, thanks to the current state of the subway), then could it possibly be faster than option #1?

3) LIRR to Penn Station >>> E to 53rd/Lex >>> 6 to 68th/Hunter College

This option requires backtracking across Manhattan, but it only requires one transfer. This is the least appealing to me, not just due to the longer distance, but also due to the fact that transferring at 53rd/Lex can be cumbersome due to the crowds and narrow escalators. However, I could easily be wrong.

Out of these three, which one would likely be the best option? If anyone has any routes I have not considered, you are welcome to reply with those.

[DailyDose]

2 minutes ago, 67thAve said:

I'm going to be attending Hunter College starting in the fall. I will be taking train #907 (arrives at 8:29 to Penn, it's the only direct of the day) in, and am considering various routes via the subway to get from the railroad to Hunter. As I am not a regular subway rider (though I will be, come this fall), I am aware that other members on this forum will have much more knowledge about reliability and speed than I do. The options I am considering are:

1) LIRR to Forest Hills >>> walk to 71st/Continental >>> F to Lexington/63rd >>> walk to Hunter College

 The biggest appeal of this route is that I don't need to transfer between subway services. I may also be able to grab a seat at either 71st or when people get off at Roosevelt to transfer to the 7. However, the F, from what I hear, is very delay-prone, and I will have to walk a few blocks from Lex/63rd to Hunter, which may be a bit irritating in inclement weather.

2) LIRR to Woodside >>> 7 express to Queensboro Plaza >>> N/W to Lex/59th >>> 6 to 68th/Hunter College

 This route has the benefit of being nearly as direct distance-wise as option #1, and also happens to avoid the walk from Lex/63rd to campus. However, this option requires two transfers. If I can pull of the transfers with minimal wait (which I doubt is possible, thanks to the current state of the subway), then could it possibly be faster than option #1?

 3) LIRR to Penn Station >>> E to 53rd/Lex >>> 6 to 68th/Hunter College

 This option requires backtracking across Manhattan, but it only requires one transfer. This is the least appealing to me, not just due to the longer distance, but also due to the fact that transferring at 53rd/Lex can be cumbersome due to the crowds and narrow escalators. However, I could easily be wrong.

 Out of these three, which one would likely be the best option? If anyone has any routes I have not considered, you are welcome to reply with those.

I would so go with Option 1. I daily commute to school as well, and I would hate to have to make so many transfers as I want time to rest or study or something else on the train. Not only is it a great option because you have the F, you can use the R or the E if something goes wrong. A 5 block walk really isn't bad, trust me.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I would stick to the 2nd one for the most part. Yes the is express, but delays occur rather easily on the QBL. Also, if you're not getting on before Kew Gardens, good luck getting a seat. More people get on than leave the train at Roosevelt Avenue.

 

Depending on whether something unexpected happens, you can use option 1 or 3 as backups. Option 3 to me is least favorable. All I will say is make sure to check the MTA website while you're on the train at Jamaica. Should something arise, you can figure out what to do.

[checkmatechamp13]

How about transferring at Jamaica to the train to Hunterspoint Avenue, and then catching the  to the there? The passageway is a little bit crowded, but it's more direct than the passageway at Lexington/53rd. Also, a lot of the crowds on the  tend to get off at QBP for the  though of course, the still has its share of riders west of that point. 

When I'm on the express bus, I check the MTA service status page (and SubwayTime) to see if there's any major issues, and plan my commute according to that. So at Jamaica, I would make my choice based on that.

[RtrainBlues]

Why not just take the N6 bus to the F train at 179th?  So much cheaper!!  The N6 is the most frequent bus in Nassau County.  40-45 min ride on the bus, then 30 min on the F.  Use the extra few minutes to study on the bus/train, and with the HUNDREDS of dollars a month you save, you'll have tons of extra spending money!

[67thAve]

17 minutes ago, RtrainBlues said:

Why not just take the N6 bus to the F train at 179th?  So much cheaper!!  The N6 is the most frequent bus in Nassau County.  40-45 min ride on the bus, then 30 min on the F.  Use the extra few minutes to study on the bus/train, and with the HUNDREDS of dollars a month you save, you'll have tons of extra spending money!

The N6 is on the opposite side of town from me, and despite it's frequency, it's excruciatingly slow, even if it's cheaper. NICE is also not very reliable (I commuted via NICE to NCC two years in a row, and would rather not step foot on a NICE bus again).

21 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

How about transferring at Jamaica to the train to Hunterspoint Avenue, and then catching the  to the there? The passageway is a little bit crowded, but it's more direct than the passageway at Lexington/53rd. Also, a lot of the crowds on the  tend to get off at QBP for the  though of course, the still has its share of riders west of that point. 

When I'm on the express bus, I check the MTA service status page (and SubwayTime) to see if there's any major issues, and plan my commute according to that. So at Jamaica, I would make my choice based on that.

That may not be a bad option, though it would be tight (the Hunterspoint train arrives at 829 and my classes start at 910).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I personally would take the LIRR to Forest Hills then transfer to a QM express bus that goes via 3rd Avenue like the QM42. Take that to 55th or as far north as it goes and just walk to 68th and Lex. Really not that bad. I walk from Le Pain Quotidien on 65th and Lex to the QM2 at Lex and 59th and used to walk from there to the QM15 at 3rd and 57th regularly.

You can nap or read in peace on the express bus and have a civilized ride. No people hanging into you, no subway stairs.

[checkmatechamp13]

7 minutes ago, 67thAve said:

The N6 is on the opposite side of town from me, and despite it's frequency, it's excruciatingly slow, even if it's cheaper. NICE is also not very reliable (I commuted via NICE to NCC two years in a row, and would rather not step foot on a NICE bus again).

That may not be a bad option, though it would be tight (the Hunterspoint train arrives at 829 and my classes start at 910).

I mean, your train is scheduled to arrive in Penn Station at 8:29am anyway, so it's no worse than taking the from Penn Station at that time anyway (and if anything, it's probably a little more reliable). I mean, if your train gets to Woodside at 8:17am, and you take the  from there, I think it's a wash. (You either come down on the LIRR and come straight through on 42nd, or come down on the  and use the to come down through 59th Street).   

But yeah, 40 minutes from LIC to Hunter College should be plenty of time. Whenever I commute from Grand Central to Hunterspoint Avenue, it takes maybe 10 minutes or so, and then another 10 minutes on the Lexington Avenue Line, and then you still have a cushion for delays. (Of course, this assumes the LIRR is fairly reliable). I mean, worse-case scenario, it's about a 25 minute walk from Grand Central to Hunter College, so as long as you get onto the East Side of Manhattan, you should be good.

[Deucey]

Can you just ride to Hunterspoint and switch to  then  at Grand Central?

When I’d fly in from California, I did that to get to the Bronx vs dealing with delays on  from Jamaica.

[QM1to6Ave]

I imagine your class schedule will change each semester, so you dont need to be married to one option. In fact, if you can get a later start in other semesters, there will be less traffic. 

[67thAve]

8 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

I mean, your train is scheduled to arrive in Penn Station at 8:29am anyway, so it's no worse than taking the from Penn Station at that time anyway (and if anything, it's probably a little more reliable). I mean, if your train gets to Woodside at 8:17am, and you take the  from there, I think it's a wash. (You either come down on the LIRR and come straight through on 42nd, or come down on the  and use the to come down through 59th Street).   

But yeah, 40 minutes from LIC to Hunter College should be plenty of time. Whenever I commute from Grand Central to Hunterspoint Avenue, it takes maybe 10 minutes or so, and then another 10 minutes on the Lexington Avenue Line, and then you still have a cushion for delays. (Of course, this assumes the LIRR is fairly reliable). I mean, worse-case scenario, it's about a 25 minute walk from Grand Central to Hunter College, so as long as you get onto the East Side of Manhattan, you should be good.

I could always try that out for a few days, and then see if it works. It seems well worth considering.

 

6 hours ago, QM1to6Ave said:

I imagine your class schedule will change each semester, so you dont need to be married to one option. In fact, if you can get a later start in other semesters, there will be less traffic. 

It certainly will. I'm stuck with five days a week this semester, since there were issues with my transcript getting mailed, so I didn't get accepted until April 30th, meaning that I couldn't register for classes until very late.

[B35 via Church]

Barring inclement weather, If I were in that situation, I'd do option #2 - without that xfer to the (6)... I'd hoof it from 59th/Lex without hesitation.

You'll find you won't be in any significant minority doing that either.

 

[NY1635]

The fastest and reliable way to Hunter College is to ride the n15 south to Rockville Center, catch the LIRR to Penn Station, connect to the (E) at 34th Street and then go thru Times Square to catch the (Q) for 72nd Street. Get off at the 69th Street exit of the 72nd St station and just hoof it west to Hunter.

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

36 minutes ago, NY1635 said:

The fastest and reliable way to Hunter College is to ride the n15 south to Rockville Center, catch the LIRR to Penn Station, connect to the at 34th Street and then go thru Times Square to catch the for 72nd Street. Get off at the 69th Street exit of the 72nd St station and just hoof it west to Hunter.

 

I don't see how any of these are fast with a gazillion transfers. Seriously, they need to get East Side Access done already. I only recommended the express bus because it would give him a relaxing commute and cut down on the transfers. With all of the transfers and up and down I'd be exhausted before I started with class. I gotta say this guy is crazy for attending Hunter with that commute. Should've went somewhere closer. Hunter is great as a City College, but coming from Long Island... It's just absurd to do that five days a week.

[NewFlyer 230]

Being someone who currently attends Hunter College I think it would be best to stick to the LIRR to Penn Station to the  and the  at Lexington just because the Queens Blvd Lines can be rather unpredictable nowadays. My stop is Forest Hills 71st but I have experienced times (in the evening around 9:30ish) where it took 2 hours just to get to my stop from Lexington Ave when construction was going on and the  and  were all running local. You may end up taking a late class eventually, especially if you need to take a language class like Spanish. Trust me I would just go ahead and take the LIRR. It would be faster for you, more comfortable and you won’t have to deal with the nonsense that happens with the subway. 

[B35 via Church]

40 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

....Seriously, they need to get East Side Access done already. I only recommended the express bus because it would give him a relaxing commute and cut down on the transfers. With all of the transfers and up and down I'd be exhausted before I started with class. I gotta say this guy is crazy for attending Hunter with that commute. Should've went somewhere closer. Hunter is great as a City College, but coming from Long Island... It's just absurd to do that five days a week.

....Then my family friend was crazier... After having left UNC (North Carolina), she attended Stony Brook.... Thing is though, IDK if she had someone drop her off, or if she took public transportation... What I can tell you is that (also) having commuted from East Flatbush to Stony Brook on a daily basis, is just as much fun, to say the least.... Lol.... Difference for me though was, I worked out there, while she was a student..... Pay was well worth it, so I stuck with it before the assignment eventually ended...... Most people put up with the LIRR to Huntington, then the xfer for the diesels to Stony Brook.... I, OTOH, took the Ronkonkoma line straight to Brenthood (as TrainMaster5 would dub it) for the bus (3d) through the campus... Something about that walk from LIRR Stony Brook I never cared for; nothing safety related, but just...meh....

God help this dude for having to put up w/ that branch (W. Hempstead) on a regular basis... Or the LIRR, period, for that matter.... IDGAS if it's Nowakowski (sp?) or this new guy Eng running the show; it aint nearly enough to get me back to taking the LIRR to work everyday

11 minutes ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Being someone who currently attends Hunter College I think it would be best to stick to the LIRR to Penn Station to the  and the  at Lexington just because the Queens Blvd Lines can be rather unpredictable nowadays. My stop is Forest Hills 71st but I have experienced times (in the evening around 9:30ish) where it took 2 hours just to get to my stop from Lexington Ave when construction was going on and the  and  were all running local. You may end up taking a late class eventually, especially if you need to take a language class like Spanish. Trust me I would just go ahead and take the LIRR. It would be faster for you, more comfortable and you won’t have to deal with the nonsense that happens with the subway. 

I wouldn't recommend the QB line to anybody these days either, but he'd still have to put up w/ the crap that's plaguing the subways regardless.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

....Then my family friend was crazier... After having left UNC (North Carolina), she attended Stony Brook.... Thing is though, IDK if she had someone drop her off, or if she took public transportation... What I can tell you is that (also) having commuted from East Flatbush to Stony Brook on a daily basis, is just as much fun, to say the least.... Lol.... Difference for me though was, I worked out there, while she was a student..... Pay was well worth it, so I stuck with it before the assignment eventually ended...... Most people put up with the LIRR to Huntington, then the xfer for the diesels to Stony Brook.... I, OTOH, took the Ronkonkoma line straight to Brenthood (as TrainMaster5 would dub it) for the bus (3d) through the campus... Something about LIRR Stony Brook I never cared for; nothing safety related, but just...ughk....

God help this dude for having to put up w/ that branch (W. Hempstead) on a regular basis... Or the LIRR, period, for that matter.... IDGAS if it's Nowakowski (sp?) or this new guy Eng running the show; it aint nearly enough to get me back to taking the LIRR to work everyday

Even when I lived overseas, my university was a 15 minute walk tops from my apartment.  If I wasn't so busy having snacks along the way, easily a 10 minute commute. More power to him if he can do this commute 5 days a week, but it takes a toll on you after a while. On days when he's delayed (because we both know he will be), that'll be fun, either going to or coming home with less time, trying to study and then getting back at it again. I've taken a hard stance to this whole super commuting BS.  I've had job offers in New Jersey and elsewhere. I've turned them down. I'm not interested in any commute where I've gotta be making that many transfers. I'd rather make less money than deal with that and keep my sanity.

[NY1635]

48 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I don't see how any of these are fast with a gazillion transfers. Seriously, they need to get East Side Access done already. I only recommended the express bus because it would give him a relaxing commute and cut down on the transfers. With all of the transfers and up and down I'd be exhausted before I started with class. I gotta say this guy is crazy for attending Hunter with that commute. Should've went somewhere closer. Hunter is great as a City College, but coming from Long Island... It's just absurd to do that five days a week.

The Babylon Branch is the fastest and reliable Line on the LIRR. It takes roughly 40 minutes to get from RVC to Penn by railroad, and another 15-20 minutes to get from Penn Station to 68th Street using the   and .  The passageways for the   at Lexington/53rd are long and the trains tend to be delayed in some way.

Ironically, the fastest route with least amount of transfers is taking the n6 to 179th for the (F), take the subway to Lex/63rd and walk to Hunter From there. Without traffic, it takes roughly 30-35 minutes for the n6 to get to 179th from West Hempstead around 5am-6am, and 40 minutes for the   to get from 179th to Lexington/63rd. I've seen lots of people at Elmont and Hempstead use the n6 around 4am-6am to the subway, some of them hoofing it over to the Turnpike to catch the bus.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, NY1635 said:

The Babylon Branch is the fastest and reliable Line on the LIRR. It takes roughly 40 minutes to get from RVC to Penn by railroad, and another 15-20 minutes to get from Penn Station to 68th Street using the   and .  The passageways for the   at Lexington/53rd are long and the trains tend to be delayed in some way.

Ironically, the fastest route with least amount of transfers is taking the n6 to 179th for the (F), take the subway to Lex/63rd and walk to Hunter From there. Without traffic, it takes roughly 30-35 minutes for the n6 to get to 179th from West Hempstead around 5am-6am, and 40 minutes for the   to get from 179th to Lexington/63rd. I've seen many people at Elmont and Hempstead use the n6 if they're not taking the LIRR from the Terminal.

I would have a similar commute from Riverdale by train (subway) and I've done it.  All of the stairs, the back and forth with the transfers. It's annoying.  That's why my commute at times is longer with the express bus but it's one bus and then I can just huff to where ever I need to go regardless of what bus I take. I just take one bus to where I need to go and walk the rest of the way.  The more transfers that you have to make, the more likely you are to get screwed over. I learned that quickly living on Staten Island.  Yes, when everything works right it's fine, but one thing doesn't work, and your commute is now over two hours one way.  No fun.  Sounds great when you're 17 or 18, but I got sick of it quickly even at that age. 

When I would go to work in the summers I was miserable and annoyed when things were screwed up and I was usually traveling off-peak.  

[Brillant93]

15 hours ago, 67thAve said:

I'm going to be attending Hunter College starting in the fall. I will be taking train #907 (arrives at 8:29 to Penn, it's the only direct of the day) in, and am considering various routes via the subway to get from the railroad to Hunter. As I am not a regular subway rider (though I will be, come this fall), I am aware that other members on this forum will have much more knowledge about reliability and speed than I do. The options I am considering are:

1) LIRR to Forest Hills >>> walk to 71st/Continental >>> F to Lexington/63rd >>> walk to Hunter College

The biggest appeal of this route is that I don't need to transfer between subway services. I may also be able to grab a seat at either 71st or when people get off at Roosevelt to transfer to the 7. However, the F, from what I hear, is very delay-prone, and I will have to walk a few blocks from Lex/63rd to Hunter, which may be a bit irritating in inclement weather.

2) LIRR to Woodside >>> 7 express to Queensboro Plaza >>> N/W to Lex/59th >>> 6 to 68th/Hunter College

This route has the benefit of being nearly as direct distance-wise as option #1, and also happens to avoid the walk from Lex/63rd to campus. However, this option requires two transfers. If I can pull of the transfers with minimal wait (which I doubt is possible, thanks to the current state of the subway), then could it possibly be faster than option #1?

3) LIRR to Penn Station >>> E to 53rd/Lex >>> 6 to 68th/Hunter College

This option requires backtracking across Manhattan, but it only requires one transfer. This is the least appealing to me, not just due to the longer distance, but also due to the fact that transferring at 53rd/Lex can be cumbersome due to the crowds and narrow escalators. However, I could easily be wrong.

Out of these three, which one would likely be the best option? If anyone has any routes I have not considered, you are welcome to reply with those.

To bad east side access isn’t complete because that would have shed a lot of commute time for you. But I would go with the third option. 

[N6 Limited]

2 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I wouldn't recommend the QB line to anybody these days either, but he'd still have to put up w/ the crap that's plaguing the subways regardless.....

I've been avoiding the QB Line, I think I've used it twice this year. Yes, he'd still have to deal with the subway crap once he's in Manhattan, but there are tons of options there. When you're on the QBL you're held hostage for the most part. Sometimes the issues don't manifest until you're away from alternatives (and stations!).

 

3 hours ago, NY1635 said:

The fastest and reliable way to Hunter College is to ride the n15 south to Rockville Center, catch the LIRR to Penn Station, connect to the at 34th Street and then go thru Times Square to catch the for 72nd Street. Get off at the 69th Street exit of the 72nd St station and just hoof it west to Hunter.

 

Why go through the transfer tunnel at 42nd street from the  , when he can just get on the  at Penn Station and make an easier transfer to the  at Times Square?

[B35 via Church]

33 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

I've been avoiding the QB Line, I think I've used it twice this year. Yes, he'd still have to deal with the subway crap once he's in Manhattan, but there are tons of options there. When you're on the QBL you're held hostage for the most part. Sometimes the issues don't manifest until you're away from alternatives (and stations!).

How are you telling somebody that they won't have to deal w/ the nonsense in the subway, when you just got through suggesting the  & the  to the guy..... That was my point with that...

As for your reply, sure there's options available, but it isn't like you're going to get to where you're going unscathed, delay-free/bullshit-free - Especially dealing with the chaos that entails the AM commute within the subway system in Midtown/E. Midtown (of all places)......

42 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Why go through the transfer tunnel at 42nd street from the  , when he can just get on the  at Penn Station and make an easier transfer to the  at Times Square?

I can't tell if the dude is trolling or serious......

[N6 Limited]

4 hours ago, NewFlyer 230 said:

Being someone who currently attends Hunter College I think it would be best to stick to the LIRR to Penn Station to the  and the  at Lexington just because the Queens Blvd Lines can be rather unpredictable nowadays. My stop is Forest Hills 71st but I have experienced times (in the evening around 9:30ish) where it took 2 hours just to get to my stop from Lexington Ave when construction was going on and the  and  were all running local. You may end up taking a late class eventually, especially if you need to take a language class like Spanish. Trust me I would just go ahead and take the LIRR. It would be faster for you, more comfortable and you won’t have to deal with the nonsense that happens with the subway. 

Folks, This is NOT an exaggeration, the delays are insane. One night it took me over 2.5 hours to get home , ( still had to transfer to a bus after).  And they're concerned about extending the  to 179th St because of costs? 

 

39 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

I can't tell if the dude is trolling or serious......

  I'm serious. The  is frequent and the to 72nd st is usually fine. The 8th Ave line is give or take. There are random gaps in service and midday trackwork delays. (for his return trip or afternoon classes) and the Queens Blvd Issues can work it's way back to the 53rd street line if not more. Where the  and  are seemingly fine along 8th Ave but then the  splits, you reach 50th street or 7th Ave and there are issues.

Many Times I've taken the LIRR to Penn Station, then I check 8th Ave service service since I'm going downtown , and it's like "DELAYS - Service has resumed on the Queens Blvd Line after an issue at (insert station here)  there are delays on the   , allow additional Travel time"

Sometimes multiple transfers can get you to your location quicker (especially during the rush when frequencies are higher)

I've even been on an uptown that started experiencing Queens Blvd delays at 23rd street. I got off at 42nd Street, took  to 74th/Broadway to bypass most of the congestion.

 

Basically, there is nothing set in stone and his best course of action is to check service status while on the LIRR to determine which route to take.

[W4ST]

I have one other option you could consider: taking the LIRR to Penn Station, then walking to Herald Square, where you could take the  or  . You would have to walk more, but you would only have one transfer, and a few options from it. You also would not have to worry about traffic as much because most people would be travelling the other way, most likely.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

3 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Folks, This is NOT an exaggeration, the delays are insane. One night it took me over 2.5 hours to get home , ( still had to transfer to a bus after).  And they're concerned about extending the  to 179th St because of costs? 

 

  I'm serious. The  is frequent and the to 72nd st is usually fine. The 8th Ave line is give or take. There are random gaps in service and midday trackwork delays. (for his return trip or afternoon classes) and the Queens Blvd Issues can work it's way back to the 53rd street line if not more. Where the  and  are seemingly fine along 8th Ave but then the  splits, you reach 50th street or 7th Ave and there are issues.

Many Times I've taken the LIRR to Penn Station, then I check 8th Ave service service since I'm going downtown , and it's like "DELAYS - Service has resumed on the Queens Blvd Line after an issue at (insert station here)  there are delays on the   , allow additional Travel time"

Sometimes multiple transfers can get you to your location quicker (especially during the rush when frequencies are higher)

I've even been on an uptown that started experiencing Queens Blvd delays at 23rd street. I got off at 42nd Street, took  to 74th/Broadway to bypass most of the congestion.

 

Basically, there is nothing set in stone and his best course of action is to check service status while on the LIRR to determine which route to take.

Yeah, relying on a QBL service, or a 6 Avenue service is basically playing a game of Russian roulette. Relying on QBL/6 Avenue service? Unless you're destination is on the  between Metropolitan to Essex, good luck. That's why I didn't suggest option 1, and instead suggested option 2 (despite the transfers). Thank god I'm no longer using the QBL in the mornings (but I still need to catch the  in the LES).