Mayor and City Council Reach Deal To Provide Discounted Metrocards for the Poor

[MHV9218]

Just now, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's not unfounded. People already receive free Metrocards and sell them.  It's a known fact. 

Employees of companies that give them company cards, when they have an alternate mode of transport, sometimes sell them. The emphasis is on the lack of options these folks receiving them will have. It's a lousy comparison. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Employees of companies that give them company cards, when they have an alternate mode of transport, sometimes sell them. The emphasis is on the lack of options these folks receiving them will have. It's a lousy comparison. 

I wasn't thinking about employees of companies. I was thinking specifically about poor people that receive free Metrocards for appointments that sell them. It's not a lousy comparison. It's a very good example that you're going to dismiss because it doesn't fit your agenda of robbing working people to give to the poor.  You're right these people don't have alternatives, but that doesn't mean they're going to use these cards for what they're meant for. They will sell them for cash and use the cash for whatever and still jump the turnstiles.

It's like the people on Food stamps. They'd sell their Food stamps for cash, then go to a soup kitchen for free food. 

[MHV9218]

5 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I wasn't thinking about employees of companies. I was thinking specifically about poor people that receive free Metrocards for appointments that sell them. It's not a lousy comparison. It's a very good example that you're going to dismiss because it doesn't fit your agenda of robbing working people to give to the poor.  You're right these people don't have alternatives, but that doesn't mean they're going to use these cards for what they're meant for. They will sell them for cash and use the cash for whatever and still jump the turnstiles.

It's like the people on Food stamps. They'd sell their Food stamps for cash, then go to a soup kitchen for free food. 

Your cynicism is anecdotal and inhumane. Theft in this country occurs on a white-collar level every day, and yet we lose our minds when people in projects have refrigerators of amenities. It's your agenda that you think this paranoid obsession with the working poor is even productive or worthwhile. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

Your cynicism is anecdotal and inhumane. Theft in this country occurs on a white-collar level every day, and yet we lose our minds when people in projects have refrigerators of amenities. It's your agenda that you think this paranoid obsession with the working poor is even productive or worthwhile. 

Theft in this country should be stopped at every level. First you tried to deny that theft under this program would happen, which is what the topic is about, not white collar theft, and now you're trying to excuse it because white collar theft occurs.  You're a funny one.  Anything to push such an asinine agenda.

[MHV9218]

3 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Theft in this country should be stopped at every level. First you tried to deny that theft under this program would happen, which is what the topic is about, not white collar theft, and now you're trying to excuse it because white collar theft occurs.  You're a funny one.  Anything to push such an asinine agenda.

My point, which you missed on purpose, is that any theft would be on an incredibly minute level to the point of irrelevancy, and the fact that you even focus on it as a reason to deprive good working people of a deeply helpful program reveals your startling lack of empathy and social awareness. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, MHV9218 said:

My point, which you missed on purpose, is that any theft would be on an incredibly minute level to the point of irrelevancy, and the fact that you even focus on it as a reason to deprive good working people of a deeply helpful program reveals your startling lack of empathy and social awareness. 

That's right, taxpayers should excuse any level of theft because despite us working for our money, we should just give it away.  What's another $100 million here and another $100 million there?  As I said earlier, there are so many other things that this money would be better suited for.  This is something that the CIty has admitted it can't afford and that it should be taking up with the State if anything.  It's fiscally irresponsible of this mayor to fund this program when he has stated on the record that the City doesn't have the monies for it.  We have a homeless crisis in this City, tons of people walking around with mental issues... This money could go to address these problems, but I'm sure you're very socially aware of all of this.   Instead we have a City Council trying to play Robin Hood with taxpayer dollars.

[MHV9218]

How do you think homelessness happens? Not being able to afford to train to job opportunities and employment is a good start. You're missing the forest for the trees. This is a mediocre argument, not continuing.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 minutes ago, MHV9218 said:

How do you think homelessness happens? Not being able to afford to train to job opportunities and employment is a good start. You're missing the forest for the trees. This is a mediocre argument, not continuing.

That's right.  All of these people are outstanding citizens that just need yet another helping hand.  I'm sorry but working at Mc Donald's or some other low end job, you're never going to be able to afford anything in this City, no matter how much the City props you up, and that's the problem with this program and so many others.   They won't end the cycle of poverty.  More handouts beget more handouts, and thus it's throwing good money after bad down the black abyss.  What other freebies should we hand out instead of getting people to become independent and personally responsible for once?  The City is already spending a FORTUNE giving these same people monies to pay their arrears, which they of course never pay back, free food stamps and all sorts of other goodies.  It's very enticing not to become independent when you have someone fulfilling all of your needs.  How about we spend this money in providing high paying jobs and training for people so that they can actually afford the rents and expenses in this City? Working some dead-end service job isn't going to cut it.    I'd much rather monies for that so that these people can contribute instead of constantly taking.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

10 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's right.  All of these people are outstanding citizens that just need yet another helping hand.  I'm sorry but working at Mc Donald's or some other low end job, you're never going to be able to afford anything in this City, no matter how much the City props you up, and that's the problem with this program and so many others.   They won't end the cycle of poverty.  More handouts beget more handouts, and thus it's throwing good money after bad down the black abyss.  What other freebies should we hand out instead of getting people to become independent and personally responsible for once?  The City is already spending a FORTUNE giving these same people monies to pay their arrears, which they of course never pay back, free food stamps and all sorts of other goodies.  It's very enticing not to become independent when you have someone fulfilling all of your needs.  How about we spend this money in providing high paying jobs and training for people so that they can actually afford the rents and expenses in this City? Working some dead-end service job isn't going to cut it.    I'd much rather monies for that so that these people can contribute instead of constantly taking.

I'm glad you think it's funny, but the reality is this mayor has increased spending since he took office by a good 30% with very little to show for it.  

[Deucey]

On 6/15/2018 at 2:52 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's like the people on Food stamps. They'd sell their Food stamps for cash, then go to a soup kitchen for free food. 

That's actually two separate issues: 1) doing away with cash assistance while scheduling what foods people on the program can buy, and 2) overpayment on food stamps/EBT so recipients have more credit than they need - due to the funding/needs formula.

Instead of fixing the latter, the feds tinkered with the former and made the "problem" worse.

[WestFarms36]

On 6/15/2018 at 3:36 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm glad you think it's funny, but the reality is this mayor has increased spending since he took office by a good 30% with very little to show for it.  

One word describes this mayor...

Boastful

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 hours ago, Deucey said:

That's actually two separate issues: 1) doing away with cash assistance while scheduling what foods people on the program can buy, and 2) overpayment on food stamps/EBT so recipients have more credit than they need - due to the funding/needs formula.

Instead of fixing the latter, the feds tinkered with the former and made the "problem" worse.

I've actually been in Whole Foods and have seen people with full carts. I'm like how are they shopping here on food stamps? Prices are reasonable there for the basics, but not for specialty items.

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I've actually been in Whole Foods and have seen people with full carts. I'm like how are they shopping here on food stamps? Prices are reasonable there for the basics, but not for specialty items.

It's all scheduled for what can/can't be bought. And because you can't carry the balance over, and SNAP at the Fed and state levels won't reduce the benefit if you don't use it, people either buy more than what they need; sell the excess or spend more than necessary.

Kinda the problem with a) block grants like SNAP and b) legislating via faux outrage. On the latter, "Entitlement hawks" mad about people buying shrimp and steak scheduled food then added money just to "assuage" accusations of the reform being punitive - thinking it'd save money by non-use of the excess (since that's what happens with the Military's food allowance for enlisted personnel), but by moving the cash portion to Food Benefits, they created a black market. (Like NYC did with tobacco taxes.)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 minutes ago, Deucey said:

It's all scheduled for what can/can't be bought. And because you can't carry the balance over, and SNAP at the Fed and state levels won't reduce the benefit if you don't use it, people either buy more than what they need; sell the excess or spend more than necessary.

Kinda the problem with a) block grants like SNAP and b) legislating via faux outrage. On the latter, "Entitlement hawks" mad about people buying shrimp and steak scheduled food then added money just to "assuage" accusations of the reform being punitive - thinking it'd save money by non-use of the excess (since that's what happens with the Military's food allowance for enlisted personnel), but by moving the cash portion to Food Benefits, they created a black market. (Like NYC did with tobacco taxes.)

It's crazy. I go in with some sort of budget, though I admit that I don't go crazy looking for sales, but I have a rough idea of what I'm spending before I checkout and I'm only buying for myself most of the time. I know even with two to three bags worth of groceries I'm spending about $80.00-120.00 per trip and that's about twice a week, maybe more depending on what I need, so I'd say $600-700 a month, but that also includes non-food items too. With the carts that I see, they must spend hundreds of dollars per trip. I mean when I hear that these people have it so hard and don't have enough of the basics, I question why they're shopping in a place like Whole Foods. That's usually somewhere where single professionals with no kids go, or a family with disposable income. In my mind it's mismanagement. I mean I'm all for healthy eating (I buy strictly organic or GMO and it costs more so I budget for it), but it's like someone having access to the subway and instead spending their allotted monies or vouchers on Metro-North and then not having enough for transportation for the month.

[Deucey]

11 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's crazy. I go in with some sort of budget, though I admit that I don't go crazy looking for sales, but I have a rough idea of what I'm spending before I checkout and I'm only buying for myself most of the time. I know even with two to three bags worth of groceries I'm spending about $80.00-120.00 per trip and that's about twice a week, maybe more depending on what I need, so I'd say $600-700 a month, but that also includes non-food items too. With the carts that I see, they must spend hundreds of dollars per trip. I mean when I hear that these people have it so hard and don't have enough of the basics, I question why they're shopping in a place like Whole Foods. That's usually somewhere where single professionals with no kids go, or a family with disposable income. In my mind it's mismanagement. I mean I'm all for healthy eating (I buy strictly organic or GMO and it costs more so I budget for it), but it's like someone having access to the subway and instead spending their allotted monies or vouchers on Metro-North and then not having enough for transportation for the month.

But folks with SNAP/EBT can't redirect the money. They can't use the excess funds for food on MetroCards or ConEd. And because assistance programs are not based on need and usage, they're based on income qualifications, you have folks who don't need much getting too much, and folks who actually need because of circumstances not qualifying because their W-2 income is too high.

But no one's proposing means testing; nor are they going to allow these unused funds to be redirected to where the recipients need it to go nor allow recipients to use their discretion.

Hence why now we have another discount program for MetroCards.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 minutes ago, Deucey said:

But folks with SNAP/EBT can't redirect the money. They can't use the excess funds for food on MetroCards or ConEd. And because assistance programs are not based on need and usage, they're based on income qualifications, you have folks who don't need much getting too much, and folks who actually need because of circumstances not qualifying because their W-2 income is too high.

But no one's proposing means testing; nor are they going to allow these unused funds to be redirected to where the recipients need it to go nor allow recipients to use their discretion.

Hence why now we have another discount program for MetroCards.

My point was that supposedly some people on food stamps supposedly don't get enough so they still go to soup kitchens, so that's why it's bizzarre to see these people in Whole Foods. I think even with this program it'll be the same thing. I have seen people at subway stations filling up Metrocards with just enough for the $2.75 fare. Will half fare Meteocards really make a difference? I don't know. I still don't think it'll matter. Easier to just not pay...

[Deucey]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

My point was that.supposedly some people on Foodstamps supposedly don't get enough so they still go to soup kitchens, so thats why it's bizzarre to see these people in Whole Foods. I think even with this program it'lo ne the same thing. I have seen people at subway stations filling up Metrocards with just enough for the $2.75 fare. Will half fare really make a difference? I don't know. I still don't think it'lo matter. Easier to just not pay...

That's where the income based part comes in. If you have a family of 5 and make 110% of FPL, you may need more food, but you might only get $200 in Food Stamps because you're expected to use part of your $60k income for food. Whereas if you have a family of 4 and make 150% of FPL, you get $600 because your expected contribution is lower.

And usually that 150% FPL will get you vouchers for housing - Sec 8 or whatever, so all the needs are taken care of, and they now end up with higher purchasing power (despite fewer living options). But that family at 110% FPL is struggling to get that food and the metro card and susceptible to that 5% rent increase.

That's the completely unfair part - we're not testing means, we're offering assistance based on numbers that Washington dictates that doesn't help NY, Chi or LA and SF, but makes OKC and Topeka people rich enough (relatively speaking) to pay a $200/month car note for a Toyota Corolla and complain about entitlements since everyone else is gaming the system while Topekans "Need help."

I'd so love to be a pol and actually get a real welfare system reform done...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, Deucey said:

That's where the income based part comes in. If you have a family of 5 and make 110% of FPL, you may need more food, but you might only get $200 in Food Stamps because you're expected to use part of your $60k income for food. Whereas if you have a family of 4 and make 150% of FPL, you get $600 because your expected contribution is lower.

And usually that 150% FPL will get you vouchers for housing - Sec 8 or whatever, so all the needs are taken care of, and they now end up with higher purchasing power (despite fewer living options). But that family at 110% FPL is struggling to get that food and the metro card and susceptible to that 5% rent increase.

That's the completely unfair part - we're not testing means, we're offering assistance based on numbers that Washington dictates that doesn't help NY, Chi or LA and SF, but makes OKC and Topeka people rich enough (relatively speaking) to pay a $200/month car note for a Toyota Corolla and complain about entitlements since everyone else is gaming the system while Topekans "Need help."

I'd so love to be a pol and actually get a real welfare system reform done...

I definitely feel like a fool when I see those people in Whole Foods, that much I do know. I'm like here I am working my @ss off and these folks are strolling around with that EBT card or whatever they call it while i'm paying with a debit or credit card for my purchase. Smh

[kosciusko]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I definitely feel like a fool when I see those people in Whole Foods, that much I do know. I'm like here I am working my @ss off and these folks are strolling around with that EBT card or whatever they call it while i'm paying with a debit or credit card for my purchase. Smh

If having EBT and living off welfare is so easy, then why don't you just quit your job?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

11 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

If having EBT and living off welfare is so easy, then why don't you just quit your job?

Because I was raised to work for what you want and be independent. I'd be embarrassed to take such handouts. I just find it funny that you're the social justice warrior living comfortably in SoHo, one of the most expensive areas of the City. You folks trip me out. I can say proudly that I came from a middle class family that worked hard and didn't have a silver spoon in my mouth, so I know about hard work. I don't think you do though.

[Deucey]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I definitely feel like a fool when I see those people in Whole Foods, that much I do know. I'm like here I am working my @ss off and these folks are strolling around with that EBT card or whatever they call it while i'm paying with a debit or credit card for my purchase. Smh

Meh. I don't let it bother me.

But in my insurance career, it was my job to tell folks about these programs when they were in a bad way (and sometimes convince folks too proud to apply to do so since they needed help, and that's what it's there for).

Like you, I get mad seeing folks abuse that system, but I also get mad seeing elites do the same. Until someone comes up with a system that reduces the already low frequency of abuse, it'll always happen.

But to do that, we'd need to really redo the assumptions behind how social programs and labor/commerce are constructed in this economy.

[R68OnBroadway]

My view on SNAP is that have it only work for healthy foods but make it so that it cannot exceed a certain price. Having people buying sugary sh*t or super-expensive organic crap isn't great.

A side note: am I the only person who wonders why these people have kids? You live below or near the poverty line, often hold a poor-paying dead-end job, and can barely get by yourself. That trip to the pharmacy for birth control or to a clinic for an abortion is going to be a lot easier than trying to raise a kid or multiple of them on your own in a terrible environment, and they might end up stuck on or mooching off the system later on for who knows how long.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

9 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

My view on SNAP is that have it only work for healthy foods but make it so that it cannot exceed a certain price. Having people buying sugary sh*t or super-expensive organic crap isn't great.

A side note: am I the only person who wonders why these people have kids? You live below or near the poverty line, often hold a poor-paying dead-end job, and can barely get by yourself. That trip to the pharmacy for birth control or to a clinic for an abortion is going to be a lot easier than trying to raise a kid or multiple of them on your own in a terrible environment, and they might end up stuck on or mooching off the system later on for who knows how long.

Actually buying organic is good. Better than drinking Kool-Aid with a mountain of sugar in it. Healthy eating AND drinking should be encouraged, but yes, super expensive organic things aren't a must. These days many store brands have their own organic line and it's damn good. Growing up, you would hesitate to buy store brands, but often times these supermarkets source their goods from some of the same organic farmers as others do and just slap their name on it, so the quality is almost identical. Veggies... I can buy all organic, local and store brand from Whole Foods. Very good quality. Then you buy some specialty items that are either hard to find or just really good, and things like organic meat costs but you can simply add more veggies and less meat to fill up.

[RailRunRob]

12 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Because I was raised to work for what you want and be independent. I'd be embarrassed to take such handouts. I just find it funny that you're the social justice warrior living comfortably in SoHo, one of the most expensive areas of the City. You folks trip me out. I can say proudly that I came from a middle class family that worked hard and didn't have a silver spoon in my mouth, so I know about hard work. I don't think you do though.

Be grateful you had that upbringing not everyone learned those values or had access to that information. Im with Ducey on this we need to understand the social programs and better understand the bigger picture then work on reform. So many Irish and Italian families benefited from social programs like the GI bill, SS and MC part of my family included. Upward mobility came in the form of help from the government for them. So who are we to turn our noses up now? 

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

16 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Be grateful you had that upbringing not everyone learned those values or had access to that information. Im with Ducey on this we need to understand the social programs and better understand the bigger picture then work on reform. So many Irish and Italian families benefited from social programs like the GI bill, SS and MC part of my family included. Upward mobility came in the form of help from the government for them. So who are we to turn our noses up now? 

 

Well you can speak for yourself.  My family's roots are primarily from Sicily.  They have always worked for what they had and have not looked for handouts. I should add that plenty of poor families do the same of far worse circumstances, so I don't buy the excuses being made. In any event, the real issue with these programs is not that they exist, but that we see endless cycles with these people remaining on them for generations. It's costly to maintain such programs in the first place, and then continue them as the population grows.  It's simple economics.  We can talk about turning noses up and morality 'til the end of time, but essentially we all need to be responsible for ourselves, and put into the system.  That's why I have no problem with things that social security, where people EARN the monies they receive in retirement.