Q77 extension to 147th Ave

[Q43LTD]

1 hour ago, N6 Limited said:

Open up the possibilities. Perhaps if the Q77 connected with the Q113 more riders would shop at or work at Costco (for example) or something. When a bus network fails to allow simple connections for easier/quicker travel, then somehow is alarmed that ridership is severely dropping in favor for other means of transportation, it's interesting to see. 

Look at the n43 on NICE. The N45 went from Roosevelt field, served NCC went down Uniondale Ave, and then over to Merrick LIRR Station.

NICE (Long Island Bus at the time) created the N43 to serve Roosevelt Field, NCC, Undiondale Ave, but then continue down to Freeport LIRR Station (on 45 min headway initially) and it immediately surpassed N45 ridership. The N45 has been eliminated since then.

Didn't the N45 go to Bellmore? I believe the N51 terminated at Merrick. 

[N6 Limited]

1 hour ago, Q43LTD said:

Didn't the N45 go to Bellmore? I believe the N51 terminated at Merrick. 

That's correct. Thanks

[Q43LTD]

26 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

That's correct. Thanks

If I remember correctly, they're both eliminated?

[N6 Limited]

30 minutes ago, Q43LTD said:

If I remember correctly, they're both eliminated?

Yep, they're both gone.

[bobtehpanda]

10 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Open up the possibilities. Perhaps if the Q77 connected with the Q113 more riders would shop at or work at Costco (for example) or something. When a bus network fails to allow simple connections for easier/quicker travel, then somehow is alarmed that ridership is severely dropping in favor for other means of transportation, it's interesting to see. 

Look at the n43 on NICE. The N45 went from Roosevelt field, served NCC went down Uniondale Ave, and then over to Merrick LIRR Station.

NICE (Long Island Bus at the time) created the N43 to serve Roosevelt Field, NCC, Undiondale Ave, but then continue down to Freeport LIRR Station (on 45 min headway initially) and it immediately surpassed N45 ridership. The N45 has been eliminated since then.

The ridership is dropping because bus speeds have been dropping and service hours have gone down the toilet. I don't even think we've technically restored the 2010 cuts.

Extending long, slow bus routes is going to make them longer, slower, and more unreliable, which is a great way of sinking ridership. 

[N6 Limited]

7 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

The ridership is dropping because bus speeds have been dropping and service hours have gone down the toilet. I don't even think we've technically restored the 2010 cuts.

Extending long, slow bus routes is going to make them longer, slower, and more unreliable, which is a great way of sinking ridership. 

Are they allowed to blame vision zero? or is that a no no?

[B35 via Church]

On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 2:04 AM, bobtehpanda said:

You know how many Lyfts it takes to even remotely fill a bus line?

The nice thing about Lyft is that it is door to door. No bus is ever going to beat that, that's why there hasn't been bus service running all the way from Flushing to QCC and then down to the Q5.

Thank you.

You have as many people that have completely done away with, or are taking mass transit at a decreased rate, due to the growing unreliability of the buses/trains, moreso than the lack of connections that aren't being made.... Those that were taking taxi's for the latter reason, were doing that to begin with..... The door to door argument is one of those pro-car arguments....

15 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Open up the possibilities. Perhaps if the Q77 connected with the Q113 more riders would shop at or work at Costco (for example) or something. When a bus network fails to allow simple connections for easier/quicker travel, then somehow is alarmed that ridership is severely dropping in favor for other means of transportation, it's interesting to see. 

Look at the n43 on NICE. The N45 went from Roosevelt field, served NCC went down Uniondale Ave, and then over to Merrick LIRR Station.

NICE (Long Island Bus at the time) created the N43 to serve Roosevelt Field, NCC, Undiondale Ave, but then continue down to Freeport LIRR Station (on 45 min headway initially) and it immediately surpassed N45 ridership. The N45 has been eliminated since then.

I get that you think that connection should be made, but to try to implicate that ridership is dropping on the Q77, in part, because of that, is farcical... That route's going to be crappy & infrequent (as you put it) regardless...

As for that N43/N45 example, that was a matter of serving one area vs. serving another; it wasn't a lack of connectivity issue .... Once the N45 turned off on Park, it became less useful.... To make some sort of a comparison to the N43 running down to Freeport (vs. Bellmore) , to the Q77 running down to 147th (instead of its current terminal) to support your point, is by far & large, over the top.....

[Future ENY OP]

I’m completely gonna be honest. I work in Springfield Gardens at the back of the airport. All the areas around the airport lack bus service which includes the Q3/Q6/Q7/Q77/Q111/Q113. 

Now for this extension to 147th Avenue. There’s 2 ways that this extension can possibly work but in order for the extension to work there has to be increased service to which right now Q77 lacks. The Springfield Gardens/Rosedale network is a complete mess and plus you have the airport and Green Acres and both areas lack bus service. 

If the 77 had great ridership numbers I’d push for an airport extension to stop at America Cargo or Queens Postal Fac or Term 5 with the Q3/Q10/B15. Currently there are NO Springfield Gardens/Rosedale connections. It’s the Q3 plus back tracking. Also, the 111/113 connection would be vidal for travel to Far Rockaway. 

[RES2773]

I know I'm late, but might as well throw in my two sense. Usually, regardless of headways, for a bus route to have consistent ridership at both ends of the route, the destinations either would need a few connections or be at a population center or attraction (such as a mall which has been discussed). From the very brief research, as I am only somewhat familiar with Springfield Gardens and the surrounding area, it doesn't seem large enough to support a terminus of a route with small enough headways to encourage ridership. Possibly just on principle it should be slightly extended to reach a connection.

At a larger scale, this route has always confused me. Seriously, go look at the Queens bus map. Just the sheer number of fairly frequent bus routes that extend from SE Queens along east-west corridors should fill the ridership needs to Jamaica of this area. Given this, I don't even see the point for the 77 to turn west when it reaches hillside avenue. This route could just be a north-south route, a function that it already fills, and its importance would remain. The same could kind of be said for the Q76 but to a lesser extent, as there are fewer routes that go from by that line more directly towards Jamaica, but the situation remains.

Why not just combine the Q76 and Q77 into one cross-borough route? There's more than enough supplemental routes that go directly to Jamaica if that's the end goal for a rider, and avoiding Hillside and the dreaded terminal could calm bus bunching and delays.

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

That route's going to be crappy & infrequent (as you put it) regardless...

To reiterate, I would just say on principle that connections should be made where they can. Not saying it will affect ridership, but it's good to have

9 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

The Springfield Gardens/Rosedale network is a complete mess and plus you have the airport and Green Acres and both areas lack bus service.

I would say this area could use a Staten Island Express Bus-style redesign, but before that can happen, simple route improvements will have to do I suppose.

Any thoughts on anything I put out?

 

 

[bobtehpanda]

9 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Are they allowed to blame vision zero? or is that a no no?

All vision zero did was lower the top speed by 10MPH. That actually doesn't lower total running speed by all that much, because the buses stop so often that they don't hit that top speed for long periods of time. And in many places that have been the slowest and slowing down for years, even general traffic does not reach 30MPH (Flushing, Jamaica etc.)

[IAlam]

8 hours ago, RES2773 said:

Why not just combine the Q76 and Q77 into one cross-borough route? There's more than enough supplemental routes that go directly to Jamaica if that's the end goal for a rider, and avoiding Hillside and the dreaded terminal could calm bus bunching and delays.

 

That would ultimately hurt both routes, without a subway connection, You'd have even fewer riders as the only people that would find the route useful would be students.

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, RES2773 said:

I know I'm late, but might as well throw in my two sense. Usually, regardless of headways, for a bus route to have consistent ridership at both ends of the route, the destinations either would need a few connections or be at a population center or attraction (such as a mall which has been discussed). From the very brief research, as I am only somewhat familiar with Springfield Gardens and the surrounding area, it doesn't seem large enough to support a terminus of a route with small enough headways to encourage ridership. Possibly just on principle it should be slightly extended to reach a connection.

At a larger scale, this route has always confused me. Seriously, go look at the Queens bus map. Just the sheer number of fairly frequent bus routes that extend from SE Queens along east-west corridors should fill the ridership needs to Jamaica of this area. Given this, I don't even see the point for the 77 to turn west when it reaches hillside avenue. This route could just be a north-south route, a function that it already fills, and its importance would remain. The same could kind of be said for the Q76 but to a lesser extent, as there are fewer routes that go from by that line more directly towards Jamaica, but the situation remains.

Why not just combine the Q76 and Q77 into one cross-borough route? There's more than enough supplemental routes that go directly to Jamaica if that's the end goal for a rider, and avoiding Hillside and the dreaded terminal could calm bus bunching and delays.

The Q77 is a Jamaica feeder route & is necessary for coverage along Francis Lewis.... Having it stop dead at Francis Lewis/Springfield (for example) would be a bit of a stub & having the Q27 cover the rest of Springfield that the Q77 does would be flat out overkill for that route - Hence, having the Q77 run along that part of Springfield.....

As for this seemingly never-ending Q76/Q77 combination suggestion.... Riders from either of those respective routes aren't going to benefit from such a route.... Nevermind the fact that it would result in a long-winded route for a second, such a suggestion promotes transfers for no good reason....

11 hours ago, RES2773 said:

To reiterate, I would just say on principle that connections should be made where they can. Not saying it will affect ridership, but it's good to have

Well I'll say this....

I don't think the Q53/Q70 should be extended to connect with the Q18....
I don't think the Corona spur of the Q38 should be extended to connect w/ the Q23 & the Q58....
I don't think the Q76 should be extended to connect w/ the Q25 out in College Point....
I don't think the Q28 should be extended to Ft. Totten to connect w/ the Q16...

That's just in Queens.... All within reasonable distances too.

I can't fully concur with the general notion that, just because some other route is nearby, that it should be connected to....

11 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

 The Springfield Gardens/Rosedale network is a complete mess.....

Yeah, because you have 2 completely separate feeder networks radiating out of Jamaica (the Jamaica Center feeders & the 165th feeders)...

[Gotham Bus Co.]

11 hours ago, RES2773 said:

Why not just combine the Q76 and Q77 into one cross-borough route? There's more than enough supplemental routes that go directly to Jamaica if that's the end goal for a rider, and avoiding Hillside and the dreaded terminal could calm bus bunching and delays.

 

IIRC, the late 1980s or early 1990s destination signs once had an allowance for a "Q78 Franny Lew Crosstown" from Whitestone to JFK Airport. It would have been an overlay on top of the Q76 and Q77, probably with a few trips "stolen" from each. 

[checkmatechamp13]

 

23 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

I don't think the Q53/Q70 should be extended to connect with the Q18....

1

Don't all those routes basically serve the Woodside subway/LIRR station?

[B35 via Church]

3 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Don't all those routes basically serve the Woodside subway/LIRR station?

Much of nobody's looking to connect b/w the Q18 & the Q53 or the Q70, is my point.

[N6 Limited]

On 6/28/2018 at 8:02 AM, B35 via Church said:

Thank you.

You have as many people that have completely done away with, or are taking mass transit at a decreased rate, due to the growing unreliability of the buses/trains, moreso than the lack of connections that aren't being made.... Those that were taking taxi's for the latter reason, were doing that to begin with..... The door to door argument is one of those pro-car arguments....

I get that you think that connection should be made, but to try to implicate that ridership is dropping on the Q77, in part, because of that, is farcical... That route's going to be crappy & infrequent (as you put it) regardless...

As for that N43/N45 example, that was a matter of serving one area vs. serving another; it wasn't a lack of connectivity issue .... Once the N45 turned off on Park, it became less useful.... To make some sort of a comparison to the N43 running down to Freeport (vs. Bellmore) , to the Q77 running down to 147th (instead of its current terminal) to support your point, is by far & large, over the top.....

What I was saying is that ridership is dropping because of a variety of reasons, one of which being lack of connections, in addition to being crappy and infrequent.  As for the N45, it became less useful because it turned off on Park, routes with lack of connections which would shorten travel time make them less useful, it's not that "over the top" to get the point.

[B35 via Church]

48 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

What I was saying is that ridership is dropping because of a variety of reasons, one of which being lack of connections, in addition to being crappy and infrequent.  As for the N45, it became less useful because it turned off on Park, routes with lack of connections which would shorten travel time make them less useful, it's not that "over the top" to get the point.

Your comparison was an embellishment of the point & didn't exactly help your case....