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Deucey

655am; Ferry leaves at 7. What does the S52 driver do at Bay/Slosson?

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7 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Damm. Staten Island b/o being ultra petty. SMDH.  I guess he didn’t mention the fact he was running hot and the dispatcher would chew him up once he arrived at St. George. 

What does it mean when a B/O "runs hot"? Does it mean they run far ahead of schedule?

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3 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

What does it mean when a B/O "runs hot"? Does it mean they run far ahead of schedule?

Running hot just means running early.

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8 hours ago, Deucey said:

(Won't get into the nonsense that (MTA) feels that it's smart scheduling to have the damn bus arrive at 7:02 am - two minutes after the ferry leaves...)
 

That trip is clearly meant to connect to the 7:15 boat.  The previous trip arrives at 6:52 for the 7:00 boat.

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2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It also seems as there are politics involved.  I've had B/Os literally shut off the bus and sit and tell us that they're running hot so we have to sit there, while others run hot by precisely the same amount of time.  It seems like if you're in with management, you get a pass, otherwise all B/Os would be doing the same thing.

Which is where the shitty management comes into play.

I'm ex-union - SEIU. Had managers that liked to write up for not ticking every box on the checklist, and some that let favorites get away with doing the same thing.

And I was hated because I forced them to apply rules uniformly and equally, while also making them look stupid for stupid rules and decisions.

Granted, I was frontline for non-medical patient care and later insurance care, but three principles apply to my situation then that apply to (MTA) staff now:

1) you're not gonna discount my judgment in performing my job

2) you're not gonna make nonsense rules and selectively apply them

3) when the rules prevent effective and efficient service, they gotta go.

In this case, you have a rule with justification - folks have milked the clock being late just cuz (I got a driver reassigned from S52/42 bc I documented his deliberate lateness vs other drivers over months), but you have it prohibiting effective and efficient service - since every other 52/42 is scheduled to arrive AFTER the ferry departs in AM rush. So either the rule needs to change, or the runtime assumptions AND scheduling need to be adjusted to accommodate the effective and efficient aspect of service delivery.

You also have the judgment aspect - if every person (based on BusTrack and MetroCard swipes) is getting on but not off - especially to a major transfer point like St George, why does it matter if the run ends at 7:02 and the bus arrives at 6:59? The other/main driver does it every day because of that efficient service aspect.

But even still - if (MTA) bases performance on terminal arrivals, you have incentivized doing whatever at the beginning of the run so long as it ends within the margin. A smarter way is measure based on mid-run timepoints - if this guy held at my stop, Hamilton/Egmont, no one would've tripped. But he got next to the end and pulled this stunt. Now people see they could've gotten to their destination sooner but now see they're delayed for an unjustified reason. And now they complain.

Someone's judgment is faulty - BO, Dispatch, Scheduling, all of the above.

So using S44 as a template (since it's the only bus I ride end-to-end), instead of tracking tardiness by when arriving at Yukon or St George, track arriving at:

Lafayette/Richmond

Post/Jewett

Richmond/Forest

Richmond/Rivington

They have BusTrack, so it's not that hard. Plus Waze for real-time traffic... People pay less attention in the middle of a run than the end of it because time can be made up/shit happens, whereas at the end, now they've been made late.

 

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1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

That trip is clearly meant to connect to the 7:15 boat.  The previous trip arrives at 6:52 for the 7:00 boat.

And yet, 3 out of 5 days all 13 of us are on the 7:00 boat.

But I'll let you explain how and why it makes sense to have buses arrive 2 minutes after a ferry departure it could easily make if drivers didn't deliberately drive 10mph below speed.

I'll wait.. 

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1 hour ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

That trip is clearly meant to connect to the 7:15 boat.  The previous trip arrives at 6:52 for the 7:00 boat.

That's what I thought as well

46 buses feed the 7am Ferry with as many as 3000 people plus a few hundred more on the train. You're pushing the limits of what older ships like the JFK (with a 3500 pax capacity) are capable of, so if you have 5-10 buses run hot and dump the 715's pax on the 700 things may get dicey if one of those little boats is out for the Rush.  I know getting parked sucks, but we can't complain about how the MTA isn't on time then criticize them for running to schedule.  Even if the bus does get in per usual at 658, can the average pax make the 7am boat doubtful. Is the 7am cast off time or doors closing time?





 

Edited by Jsunflyguy
edit for spelling

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Honestly, there should be less of a reprimand for running hot (within reason) & more of one for literally stalling at a stop to "make time"; never understood why that silly practice remains to be permissible.... Either way, you're early regardless (and there can be many reasons for it...), so (in this case) just drop the damn people off at the ferry & do away with these stupid shenanigans... And then wonder why public transportation usage in this city is on the decline as it is....

The very thought of fostering a culture where it's better to be late than early - Where you have millions of commuters utilizing these services to get to their jobs/classes early (and "reprimanded" for being late), is ironic as f***, to say the least.... I gotta tell you, as a manager, while the plight is understood, I'm quite frankly sick & tired of hearing about the damn n23 almost every morning from the same 3 people....

 

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17 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Honestly, there should be less of a reprimand for running hot (within reason) & more of one for literally stalling at a stop to "make time"; never understood why that silly practice remains to be permissible.... Either way, you're early regardless (and there can be many reasons for it...), so (in this case) just drop the damn people off at the ferry & do away with these stupid shenanigans... And then wonder why public transportation usage in this city is on the decline as it is....

The very thought of fostering a culture where it's better to be late than early - Where you have millions of commuters utilizing these services to get to their jobs/classes early (and "reprimanded" for being late), is ironic as f***, to say the least.... I gotta tell you, as a manager, while the plight is understood, I'm quite frankly sick & tired of hearing about the damn n23 almost every morning from the same 3 people....

 

LMAO. They're lucky they don't work for me. I don't tolerate tardiness, and I will dock you for it especially if I state in advance that I need you to be somewhere.

I agree with the rest of your statement. Too many drivers deliberately come late because they're so afraid to be early. I can see 5 minutes late, but anything after that when there's no traffic is excessive.

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5 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They have BusTime to give them real time information to adjust the schedules.  I don't know why they aren't using it.

How would you adjust a bus that's 2 mins ahead of schedule? Drivers drive a little slower so they can kill a light or two to make up those 2 mins.

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2 minutes ago, Statty said:

How would you adjust a bus that's 2 mins ahead of schedule? Drivers drive a little slower so they can kill a light or two to make up those 2 mins.

What do you mean how? They already do it on some routes. Shave off 2 minutes here and a minute there.

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4 hours ago, SevenEleven said:

They allow us 2 mins to be early and they are strict with schedule adherence in the AMs.

So that explains why bus service is marginally better in the mornings...

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7 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What do you mean how? They already do it on some routes. Shave off 2 minutes here and a minute there.

Sorry. I might've misunderstood what you stated about bustime and having them to adjust accordingly when the driver is 2-3 minutes hot. You believe that drivers shouldn't drive slower to make schedule, but to properly adjust the schedule to the driver? Itll be difficult imo because every driver drives differently.

Also.. if every driver were to gun the bus and run 'hot'. Schedules would be cut to adjusted and drivers would be 'shaved' of pay. It's just not worth it to gun it, especially if you're on time or just 2-3 mins behind.

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1 minute ago, Statty said:

Sorry. I might've misunderstood what you stated about bustime and having them to adjust accordingly when the driver is 2-3 minutes hot. You believe that drivers shouldn't drive slower to make schedule, but to properly adjust the schedule to the driver? Itll be difficult imo because every driver drives differently.

Also.. if every driver were to gun the bus and run 'hot'. Schedules would be cut to adjusted and drivers would be 'shaved' of pay. It's just not worth it to gun it, especially if you're on time or just 2-3 mins behind.

I'm saying in instances where buses are constantly hot, that means that the drivers have too much run time and adjustments should be made. There was a time when B/Os were able to make the schedules. It's only in the last few years that numerous drivers can't drive and stay on schedule. 

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13 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I'm saying in instances where buses are constantly hot, that means that the drivers have too much run time and adjustments should be made. There was a time when B/Os were able to make the schedules. It's only in the last few years that numerous drivers can't drive and stay on schedule. 

Dunno why that was misunderstood.

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Thats just unnecessary and disrespectful and shows no care for the paying passengers on the bus, and he probably doesn't even know the ferry schedule. I don't care if the ferry is frequent in the morning, should've watched your paddle the entire trip, to "stay on time" if it mattered that much. You're at the end of the line, who are you waiting for? Some of these B/Os are too robotic, they literally just drive, and some OPERATE. The thing with Staten Island buses, it's more commuter based, so everyone knows (even the dispatchers) about catching the ferry. Its not the end of the world if you get there 3-4 mins earlier than your scheduled time to catch the boat. Thats just the way the run is set up, if u get there after, people can't complain, if you catch the boat, people will thank you (in their heads). This is just a probation, extra list dude who doesn't want to risk anything he learned in training. As you said, for the regular B/O, she knows how to hold it down. In my opinion, this bus redesign needs to hurry up so all these paddles can be adjusted to 2018 standards such as making the ferry, etc. Trips should be based on arrivals heading towards the ferry, and based on starting points leaving the ferry. Same applies for the Bay Ridge buses in connection with the train.

 

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2 hours ago, Jsunflyguy said:

That's what I thought as well

46 buses feed the 7am Ferry with as many as 3000 people plus a few hundred more on the train. You're pushing the limits of what older ships like the JFK (with a 3500 pax capacity) are capable of, so if you have 5-10 buses run hot and dump the 715's pax on the 700 things may get dicey if one of those little boats is out for the Rush.  I know getting parked sucks, but we can't complain about how the MTA isn't on time then criticize them for running to schedule.  Even if the bus does get in per usual at 658, can the average pax make the 7am boat doubtful. Is the 7am cast off time or doors closing time?





 

7:30, 7:45 and 8am ferries tend to be SRO - especially if JFK is one of the vessel operating that trip.

I've stood on JFK, SoA, Molinari and Marchi when I had to ride at those times.[/b]

Mondays, 7am and 7:15 have empty seats - especially since those two yachts running are the Newhouse and Barberi.

So I don't get what you're saying, since for 7:30, 7:45 and 8am, EVERY bus route is SRO arriving - even the tandems s42/52, S40/90/44/94 arrive at the same time -along with multiple SIR locals and expresses.

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13 hours ago, bwwnyc123 said:

I know right I can't stand when some bus operators just sit at a bus stop for a period of time when riders have places to go on time. 

While I agree with the general idea that buses should be kept moving (so in other words, if this is a constant issue, the schedule should be adjusted accordingly). However, on the off-chance that you get a B/O who still manages to run a little hot on a tightly-cut schedule, I would prefer that they sit at a major stop (i.e. A place where a lot of people are getting on and off anyway, and maybe have some other options as far as a train or limited-stop bus that they can catch if they want to keep moving) for a few minutes, rather than drive slowly. 

Which is another thing, Zerega talks about safety, but at the same time, crawling down a major street impedes traffic. At least in the bus stop, the stop is generally (though not always) designed to keep the bus out of the way of the other cars.

12 hours ago, RailBus63 said:

If you have to catch the 7:00 a.m. ferry, why not just take the S52 trip that arrives at 6:52 and save yourself the rush?  

Why not just take Uber? Or drive or walk? Oh, wait, that's why ridership is declining, because the MTA thinks everybody can "just" leave earlier.

People who depend on the bus-ferry connection usually have a cushion built in to account for delays. Say you built in a 20 minute cushion, well 15 minutes of that just disappeared before you even got to the Manhattan end. Now you have to hope that everything runs well on the other end, whereas before, you could've relaxed, knowing you already made the ferry.

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

Which is where the shitty management comes into play.

I'm ex-union - SEIU. Had managers that liked to write up for not ticking every box on the checklist, and some that let favorites get away with doing the same thing.

And I was hated because I forced them to apply rules uniformly and equally, while also making them look stupid for stupid rules and decisions.

Granted, I was frontline for non-medical patient care and later insurance care, but three principles apply to my situation then that apply to (MTA) staff now:

1) you're not gonna discount my judgment in performing my job

2) you're not gonna make nonsense rules and selectively apply them

3) when the rules prevent effective and efficient service, they gotta go.

In this case, you have a rule with justification - folks have milked the clock being late just cuz (I got a driver reassigned from S52/42 bc I documented his deliberate lateness vs other drivers over months), but you have it prohibiting effective and efficient service - since every other 52/42 is scheduled to arrive AFTER the ferry departs in AM rush. So either the rule needs to change, or the runtime assumptions AND scheduling need to be adjusted to accommodate the effective and efficient aspect of service delivery.

You also have the judgment aspect - if every person (based on BusTrack and MetroCard swipes) is getting on but not off - especially to a major transfer point like St George, why does it matter if the run ends at 7:02 and the bus arrives at 6:59? The other/main driver does it every day because of that efficient service aspect.

But even still - if (MTA) bases performance on terminal arrivals, you have incentivized doing whatever at the beginning of the run so long as it ends within the margin. A smarter way is measure based on mid-run timepoints - if this guy held at my stop, Hamilton/Egmont, no one would've tripped. But he got next to the end and pulled this stunt. Now people see they could've gotten to their destination sooner but now see they're delayed for an unjustified reason. And now they complain.

Someone's judgment is faulty - BO, Dispatch, Scheduling, all of the above.

So using S44 as a template (since it's the only bus I ride end-to-end), instead of tracking tardiness by when arriving at Yukon or St George, track arriving at:

Lafayette/Richmond

Post/Jewett

Richmond/Forest

Richmond/Rivington

They have BusTrack, so it's not that hard. Plus Waze for real-time traffic... People pay less attention in the middle of a run than the end of it because time can be made up/shit happens, whereas at the end, now they've been made late.

As far as I know, if they're early, they're supposed to hold at the timepoint so that when management gathers their data, they can easily see where there's excess time built into the schedule, and adjust accordingly. The S52 schedule change was fairly recent, and while they added extra trips on both the S42 & S52, the crummy thing is that they increased the runtime unnecessarily. 

Me personally, I would've tried to make a run for it from Slosson Terrace to the ferry terminal if the driver made an instant announcement at 6:55am that he would be holding to try and keep time. 

2 hours ago, Jsunflyguy said:

That's what I thought as well

46 buses feed the 7am Ferry with as many as 3000 people plus a few hundred more on the train. You're pushing the limits of what older ships like the JFK (with a 3500 pax capacity) are capable of, so if you have 5-10 buses run hot and dump the 715's pax on the 700 things may get dicey if one of those little boats is out for the Rush.  I know getting parked sucks, but we can't complain about how the MTA isn't on time then criticize them for running to schedule.  Even if the bus does get in per usual at 658, can the average pax make the 7am boat doubtful. Is the 7am cast off time or doors closing time?

It's usually the doors-closing time. Usually, if a bus pulls in a minute before the scheduled departure the passengers are able to make it if they hustle. 

In any case, the MTA schedules its buses based on its own loading guidelines, not the ferry's loading guidelines. The fact that the bus was scheduled to just miss the ferry had more to do with trying to maintain 10 minute S52 headways than concern about overloading the ferry.

1 hour ago, Statty said:

Sorry. I might've misunderstood what you stated about bustime and having them to adjust accordingly when the driver is 2-3 minutes hot. You believe that drivers shouldn't drive slower to make schedule, but to properly adjust the schedule to the driver? Itll be difficult imo because every driver drives differently.

Also.. if every driver were to gun the bus and run 'hot'. Schedules would be cut to adjusted and drivers would be 'shaved' of pay. It's just not worth it to gun it, especially if you're on time or just 2-3 mins behind.

Not necessarily. It could be incorporated into the layover. (For example, if that B/O had a 7:15am return trip, whether he got there at 6:58am or 7:02am, it wouldn't have been enough to push him to do the 7:00am trip). Even if it did, there's always a need for more service somewhere (maybe after the final trip, instead of running out-of-service to the depot, they have extra time available to run in-service)

I'll give you an idea: The S46/96 schedule was adjusted a while back, so that the weekday evening buses left the West Shore Plaza at :15 and :45 instead of :20 and :50. This allowed buses to (on paper) make the ferry connections by 2 minutes instead of missing them by 3 minutes. On top of that, what they did was add an outbound S96 trip, using a bus that was formerly deadheading (they still have to deadhead from the West Shore Plaza so it's more expensive overall because they made the extra trip, but the ratio of deadhead:revenue miles (or hours) is lower overall, and the passengers get better service.

53 minutes ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

Thats just unnecessary and disrespectful and shows no care for the paying passengers on the bus, and he probably doesn't even know the ferry schedule. I don't care if the ferry is frequent in the morning, should've watched your paddle the entire trip, to "stay on time" if it mattered that much. You're at the end of the line, who are you waiting for? Some of these B/Os are too robotic, they literally just drive, and some OPERATE. The thing with Staten Island buses, it's more commuter based, so everyone knows (even the dispatchers) about catching the ferry. Its not the end of the world if you get there 3-4 mins earlier than your scheduled time to catch the boat. Thats just the way the run is set up, if u get there after, people can't complain, if you catch the boat, people will thank you (in their heads). This is just a probation, extra list dude who doesn't want to risk anything he learned in training. As you said, for the regular B/O, she knows how to hold it down. In my opinion, this bus redesign needs to hurry up so all these paddles can be adjusted to 2018 standards such as making the ferry, etc. Trips should be based on arrivals heading towards the ferry, and based on starting points leaving the ferry. Same applies for the Bay Ridge buses in connection with the train.

The Bay Ridge buses and (R) train are generally more frequent than the St. George buses and the ferry (well definitely the ferry). At most, maybe they can have holding lights late at night like with the B36/68 at Coney Island, but at that's about all I would do. With the constant stream of buses and trains arriving and departing, you just have to keep things moving.

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3 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Why not just take Uber? Or drive or walk? Oh, wait, that's why ridership is declining, because the MTA thinks everybody can "just" leave earlier.

i was going to address that as well.... Well it autosaved & this is what I said:

"What's to stop him from taking that 6:52 & be subjected to stalling at that same stop... for an even longer duration :lol:"

3 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Me personally, I would've tried to make a run for it from Slosson Terrace to the ferry terminal if the driver made an instant announcement at 6:55am that he would be holding to try and keep time.

Take advantage of that energy while you're still young... That goes for you & anyone else on here in your age range.

This is coming from someone that's rode many a bus in the tri-state area here (no surprise there), and here in 2018 - is basically throwing in the towel with all that running....

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36 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Me personally, I would've tried to make a run for it from Slosson Terrace to the ferry terminal if the driver made an instant announcement at 6:55am that he would be holding to try and keep time. 

This cat made no announcement. Turned off Slosson onto Bay and stopped at that temp stop before the post office. Still no announcement.

Didn't say a god-blessed thing until I piped up.

 

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32 minutes ago, Deucey said:

This cat made no announcement. Turned off Slosson onto Bay and stopped at that temp stop before the post office. Still no announcement.

Didn't say a god-blessed thing until I piped up.

 

That'another thing that's annoying. There are certain things that you won't be trained on that you should just do as common courtesy and as someone with half a brain. I guess he thought they aren't paying me to do XYZ, so why should I do it? Because you work with the public, that's why! Then you have B/Os that get upset when management reminds them of common sense things like pulling into the damn curb to pick-up and drop-off passengers. It took one driver I had several years and numerous complaints for him to finally get this concept (and I'm not joking either). At first I thought he was just being spiteful but then I noticed he was doing this at every stop. Like dude are you that dense that you don't understand the concept of pulling your bus to the curb so that people can board safely? I recorded him once stopping practically in the middle of 6th Avenue late at night to pick up passengers without any obstructions whatsoever. Just insane.

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2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That'another thing that's annoying. There are certain things that you won't be trained on that you should just do as common courtesy and as someone with half a brain. I guess he thought they aren't paying me to do XYZ, so why should I do it? Because you work with the public, that's why! Then you have B/Os that get upset when management reminds them of common sense things like pulling into the damn curb to pick-up and drop-off passengers. It took one driver I had several years and numerous complaints for him to finally get this concept (and I'm not joking either). At first I thought he was just being spiteful but then I noticed he was doing this at every stop. Like dude are you that dense that you don't understand the concept of pulling your bus to the curb so that people can board safely? I recorded him once stopping practically in the middle of 6th Avenue late at night to pick up passengers without any obstructions whatsoever. Just insane.

I feel like whenever you try to correct drivers mistakes they take it the wrong way and have an attitude with you. Happened to me numerous amount of times when I got on a Bx9 and it was signed in the wrong direction so I told the driver of the error and they would give me hell.

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8 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

I feel like whenever you try to correct drivers mistakes they take it the wrong way and have an attitude with you. Happened to me numerous amount of times when I got on a Bx9 and it was signed in the wrong direction so I told the driver of the error and they would give me hell.

Unless I know the driver I usually won't bother.  You have guys that are know-it-alls.  You signed up your bus with the wrong signage, a passenger is nice enough to tell you about it, and then you get attitude or respond sarcastically as if you knew it all along.  Sometimes depending on how the bus is signed up, the bus won't come up on BusTime.

One night I was heading to the City late, and I got one of my buddies. He was signed up as a BxM3 instead of a BxM2.  I told him about it, he changed it and we went about our usual conversation.  The problem is a lot of these guys feel like "they're under attack". They get it from management, then take it out on the public, and everyone is "the enemy".  My neighborhood is known as the one that B/Os hate driving through because they say that people complain about everything, filing complaints officially, and then they'll turn around and treat passengers like crap in areas where people don't complain because they think it's ok.

 Well you know what, when buses don't show up as scheduled, drivers come whenever or purposely sit in traffic when there are other ways to go, yes, people are going to complain because we have places to be.  For the last few weeks now, we've had several missing buses on the BxM1.  The driver either calls out sick or is off and is not replaced.  This morning there must've been two missing BxM1s (the one I was waiting for never came, nor did the one before that), so we're not supposed to say anything about having to wait 20-30 minutes for the next bus. 

Generally speaking I find that the more educated the driver, the more polite they are and use common sense.  There's a black Hispanic guy that I get that's really cool.  We've had long conversations about passengers, etc. He has no problem driving on any of the lines because he looks out for passengers who in turn look out for him.  As a young male, what I look for and pay attention to are drivers that deliberately discriminate against passengers because they're a male and/or young.  It's more prevalent on the express buses than the local ones.  If we're all paying the fare, then we should all get the same level of courtesy.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
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On 6/26/2018 at 10:37 AM, Future ENY OP said:

(i dunno the dispatch at St. George but I’m assuming the dispatch is from Yukon) 

The S52 is a Castleton route, so dispatch is from Castleton.

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44 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

The S52 is a Castleton route, so dispatch is from Castleton.

Are there more Castleton lines at St.George  than Yukon and Charleston??? 

And the dispatch that hangs out at St. George is usually from Castelton or Yukon. (Haven’t been in Staten Island in years).

Edited by Future ENY OP

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7 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Are there more Castleton lines at St.George more than Yukon and Charleston??? 

And the dispatch that hangs out at St. George is usually from Castelton or Yukon. (Haven’t been in Staten Island in years).

1

At St. George, There are;

- 8 Castleton routes (13 if you count the LTDs)

- 3 Yukon routes (6 if you count the LTDs)

- 2 Charleston routes (3 if you count the LTDs)

In total, 8/13 (13/22 if you count the LTDs) routes are Castleton, so there are more Castleton routes at St. George than Yukon and Charleston combined.

Edited by Lil 57

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