655am; Ferry leaves at 7. What does the S52 driver do at Bay/Slosson?

[bobtehpanda]

20 minutes ago, Lil 57 said:

Fine, then service must be cut. The looses over $200 million dollars each year because some people don't want to pay the fare. They pay or get out. If they don't get out then the cops are called and they handle it. The B/O just has to say "I'm not moving this bus until you pay the fare" and they would either pay or forced out by the cops/riders. Either that or the  punishes high fare beating routes with cuts and when they start to pay, then the service will be returned to normal levels.

People need to learn that the  doesn't provide service for free. If no action is taken, people will just keep on moving. I know in Russia, buses have turnstiles on them to combat farebeating.

The MTA already sort of does this, because their methods of counting passengers rely on Metrocard swipes.

This seems about as helpful as a four year old holding their breath til they get what they want. Do you have any evidence that anything like this is supposed to work? Because if it doesn't, you just stranded a bunch of poor people from medical appointments and their jobs, for what purpose exactly?

Edited July 7, 2019 by bobtehpanda

[Around the Horn]

57 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Lmao, why would this matter? B/Os don't make commission (and before anyone is stupid enough to suggest that, it's a f**king terrible idea)

The B/Os job is to drive the bus and (ideally) to get to the destination in a safe, timely, and consistent manner.

To add on to this, actual bus operators have said that they don't want to have to deal with enforcing the fare and possibly getting assaulted, injured or even worse, getting killed over the damn fare and that's one of the reasons why they prefer POP. 

If you want the fare to be enforced, the Eagle Team (gulp) is the answer here... Give them jurisdiction over the entire system, and for crying out loud, put them in plainclothes!

[Lil 57]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

The MTA already sort of does this, because their methods of counting passengers rely on Metrocard swipes.

Not really the B/Os press F5 for farebeating. So they are counting farebeaters.

Edited July 7, 2019 by Lil 57

[Lil 57]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Do you have any evidence that anything like this is supposed to work? 

Happens all the time on the express bus. Like I said before, they don't have protection but they still stop farebeaters.

[Trainmaster5]

I'm gonna put this out here and then you posters can have a go at it. I don't want to put current B/O s or RTO people on the spot but they are welcome to chime in. About 30 years ago some folks in management ( lower) explained to me and a few others that the MTA was losing money on every rider, especially the buses. In other words the fare box recovery wasn't enough even with the subsidies that the MTA received from various sources.  As my S.I. union friend has probably heard before elsewhere cuts must be made somewhere. In my department,  RTO,  a new system called ATS  was introduced.  Many frontline employees were reassigned or not replaced when they retired.  In the Station Department many booths were closed and the personnel reassigned to other duties. In the Surface Department along comes SBS. Subsidized at introduction by the feds. I think Deucey, DetSmart45,  B35, BrooklynBus,  and a few others have figured out the endgame already. A few years ago the MTA and much of the local media were on the warpath about the labor costs in the agency. Public outrage over some of the salaries and benefits.  Old time New Yorkers and union members have seen this show before. Let's rile up the public and pit them against the workforce. Did the new ATS system speed up the train service on the IRT  mainline ? No but it did allow us to shed some of the workforce.  In my old borough of Brooklyn did the original SBS  line, B44, make an appreciable difference in most people's commutes. Unless you traveled from Sheepshead Bay to Bridge Plaza I'd guess no. I still think some SBS service is nothing more than a Trojan horse to cut service in the long run.  With the way bus service on Staten Island seems to be operated according to many posters it appears that they want bus service to deteriorate while driving many folks to the Express bus or their own cars.  Guess what?  The MTA may lose ridership but they'll make it up with congestion pricing. Less local bus ridership will lead to service cuts and less B/O jobs in the long term. Less labor costs, health benefits and pensions. Increase disciplinary action against the B/O who runs hot and that will invariably make the others slow down. I can see the Surface mgt. increasing running time so that buses arrive at the ferry 5 minutes after the yacht departs Deucey,  I've been a union man for most of my life but in Transit I have seen some cozy relationships between some reps and management. I was lucky to have a rabbi whom everyone respected for his knowledge. He, in turn,  knew people in the upper levels of Transit and the MTA. As he often points out to me my  United States Senator and the Speaker of the New York State Assembly spoke to NYCTA before my employment.  Both gentlemen told my parents what day I was going to be appointed to the agency. One month before Transit  I never had to use the politicians names during my career because my rabbi and his people had the clout. Eventually the old guard retired and became consultants I don't have much faith in the newer people in the agency or the union because I don't think their priorities coincide with the ridership or the present workforce. When one hears statements from management lamenting how much they lose per rider or how much each worker costs my guard goes up. I can remember when my cousins started working as bank tellers. When the new ATM was going to make the banking experience better. Luckily they listened to our older generation and got civil service jobs. I think that's the ultimate goal of the MTA,  buses,  subways,  and railroads  Drive everyone to use their cars or the express bus and shame on those who don't have the luxury. I've become an old cynic.  Just my opinion.  Carry on

[XcelsiorBoii4888]

I'm not going to lie @Trainmaster5 I figured the MTA was doing that. I don't see this place getting better. I see service getting worst, more cars ending up on the road leading to more accidents, traffic, and congestion pricing. And with the subways, more delays, overcrowding, until it can't handle anymore. 

That's why I'm ready to move out, too corrupt and too much politics here. 

[Gotham Bus Co.]

1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

Not really the B/Os press F5 for farebeating. So they are counting farebeaters.

 

When they remember to press the button.

[DetSMART45]

15 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Lmao, why would this matter? B/Os don't make commission (and before anyone is stupid enough to suggest that, it's a f**king terrible idea)

The B/Os job is to drive the bus and (ideally) to get to the destination in a safe, timely, and consistent manner.

Since the DDOT 2015 contract, operators get a yearly commission from the farebox. First year, average commission was around $525, and the second year was above $600. This was a vital part of the DDOT/City of Detroit turnaround plan following the "lean years"/eventual bankruptcy.

Ridership figures went up significantly, and I can't tell you the last time I saw some character try the "sob story" in order to get a ride on a DDOT bus. Today, DDOT operators don't have to say hardly a word -- everybody gets on, pays fare, sits down and gets to where they want to go. On-time performance has also improved significantly city-wide.

The MTA is much too far gone to even attempt something similar. But I'll tell ya, it works out here in "flyover country" outside of the hoity-toity Northeast Corridor.

[Deucey]

On 7/7/2019 at 7:40 AM, DetSMART45 said:

True, but are the routes actually arriving to drop-off/pick-up at those scheduled times so that everything works like clockwork? Obviously not.

Having a "circulator" route similar to the Hudson Rail Link could relieve some of the issues, along with making the Limited routes truly limited from end-to-end (and operate in both directions during Peak). Local service would operate at all times, but wouldn't go directly to the Ferry during Peak, instead to the transfer areas for the circulator. (Also Limited routes would not pick-up/drop-off within a certain zone of the circulator coverage.) Oh, and throw in some artics on the Limited runs to help even out the loads, when necessary. (Circulator route could always be a free ride, if you already paid in the system.) You could get really wild and run this type of operation on weekends too.

Sound too pie-in-the-sky? Maybe. But not everyone on the Island is looking to get off it in the morning and return to it in the afternoon. (Look at Metro North reverse-commute numbers, as an example.) However, for those that do those travel patterns, give them a better alternative than what's available now.

Actually, a better solution would be to change cross island routes like S52/78/44 to have a short-line and full-route variant - the full route does non-stop until it gets below the Staten Island Expressway (and non-stop above the SIE to the Ferry), and the short-line just runs between the SIE and ferry.

That way, south and West shore residents get timely ferry service, and we North Shore folks don't miss boats because the s52 is stuck at Fingerboard Road.

[checkmatechamp13]

On 7/7/2019 at 7:41 PM, Lil 57 said:

Happens all the time on the express bus. Like I said before, they don't have protection but they still stop farebeaters.

As a general rule, you are much more likely to get a "ghetto" passenger on a local bus than on an express bus. There have been incidents where B/Os have been killed over the fare (and personally, even if I were an express bus B/O I wouldn't challenge anyone over the fare). 

On 7/7/2019 at 7:49 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

 Less labor costs, health benefits and pensions. Increase disciplinary action against the B/O who runs hot and that will invariably make the others slow down. I can see the Surface mgt. increasing running time so that buses arrive at the ferry 5 minutes after the yacht departs

Wouldn't that increase in runtime cost more money?

9 hours ago, Deucey said:

Actually, a better solution would be to change cross island routes like S52/78/44 to have a short-line and full-route variant - the full route does non-stop until it gets below the Staten Island Expressway (and non-stop above the SIE to the Ferry), and the short-line just runs between the SIE and ferry.

That way, south and West shore residents get timely ferry service, and we North Shore folks don't miss boats because the s52 is stuck at Fingerboard Road.

On the S44, not enough of the ferry-bound ridership comes from points south of the SIE (Trust me, I'd love to save money and take the ferry, but the express bus gets me to Manhattan in the time it takes a fast local bus driver to get me to the ferry....time is money and that is the one reason I stick with the express bus)

[Axis]

Is it really that hard to just reschedule buses to just legally leave/arrive earlier (regardless of run time)?

[DetSMART45]

4 minutes ago, Axis said:

Is it really that hard to just reschedule buses to just legally leave/arrive earlier (regardless of run time)?

Was going to reply with something really condescending to this, but the TRUTH of the matter with the MTA is:

YES

Anywhere (practically) outside the NYC region [since NJT isn't too spiffy, either], better shot at some type of "common sense."

[DetSMART45]

40 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

As a general rule, you are much more likely to get a "ghetto" passenger on a local bus than on an express bus. There have been incidents where B/Os have been killed over the fare (and personally, even if I were an express bus B/O I wouldn't challenge anyone over the fare). 

Not gonna really rip this apart (like I should in the "PC" world we live in), BUT .........

Back in "the day" (close to 30 yrs ago), two DDOT routes went through Detroit's largest Projects--Herman Gardens. North/south Route 46--Southfield, running through Detroit between two suburban shopping malls, 25-30 wk/30 Sat/60 Sun. Crosstown east/west Route 47--Tireman, wk/Sat Peak to/from Downtown, wk/Sat off-pk to/from Midtown (Medical Center), short-route early/mid-Sun. Headways for 47: 20 min all day wk/28 min Sat/50 min Sun, with Sat/Sun early shutdown before 7pm.

Rode the 46 multiple times (weekdays and Saturdays), and caught the 47 occasionally during both the Downtown and Midtown runs.

On both of these routes, NOT ONCE did I see a customer farebeat, even though there could be plenty of "excuses" that could be givenm especially for the "locale" served by these routes. (Oh, and the 47 also served the second-largest Project in Detroit, the Jeffries, on all trips.)

Just sayin'.

(Forgot to add, both of these Projects have been demolished, and the usual HUD "townhomes" constructed in their place. The routes have changed as well since, but no matter the status of your life, in DDOT-town, you pay or you don't ride. That has not changed.)

Edited July 9, 2019 by DetSMART45

[Trainmaster5]

18 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

 

Wouldn't that increase in runtime cost more money?

 

Let me overoversimplify the MTA way of thinking. Going back to the example Deucey gave where the bus could arrive at:58 but was scheduled to arrive later. Knowing how the MTA thinks if there were 5 trips scheduled in the preceding hour they would drop one of those runs and adjust the running time of the remaining four trips. The MTA logic is the same amount of ridership and fares would be there for one less run. One less B/O to hire.  Less benefits,  less pension costs  Do you actually believe that the MTA cares which yacht a rider boards ? The overcrowding of the remaining buses equates to the increased running time. What I've been trying to say in my last posts is that the riders perspective and the MTA perspective are not the same.  IMO therein lies the problem.  My opinion.  Carry on. 

[Deucey]

6 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Let me overoversimplify the MTA way of thinking. Going back to the example Deucey gave where the bus could arrive at:58 but was scheduled to arrive later. Knowing how the MTA thinks if there were 5 trips scheduled in the preceding hour they would drop one of those runs and adjust the running time of the remaining four trips. The MTA logic is the same amount of ridership and fares would be there for one less run. One less B/O to hire.  Less benefits,  less pension costs  Do you actually believe that the MTA cares which yacht a rider boards ? The overcrowding of the remaining buses equates to the increased running time. What I've been trying to say in my last posts is that the riders perspective and the MTA perspective are not the same.  IMO therein lies the problem.  My opinion.  Carry on. 

You know in LA, riders took the RTD/LACMTA to court over this, got a consent decree requiring that they add buses when crowding went over a certain threshold consistently, and not only did LACMTA/Metro create Rapid buses (the ones in Red livery), they got more riders and were able to both expand bus service and build more rail.

 isn’t doing better because we’re not forcing it nor NYC/NYS to do better.

To have so many on one bus that we’re not only standing in front of the front door - in contravention of Federal law, we’re now late because the bus can’t operate safely?

Only in NY will passenger safety be compromised because a bean counter needed to save pennies.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Deucey
Was still on my soapbox

[DetSMART45]

18 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Let me overoversimplify the MTA way of thinking. Going back to the example Deucey gave where the bus could arrive at:58 but was scheduled to arrive later. Knowing how the MTA thinks if there were 5 trips scheduled in the preceding hour they would drop one of those runs and adjust the running time of the remaining four trips. The MTA logic is the same amount of ridership and fares would be there for one less run. One less B/O to hire.  Less benefits,  less pension costs  Do you actually believe that the MTA cares which yacht a rider boards ? The overcrowding of the remaining buses equates to the increased running time. What I've been trying to say in my last posts is that the riders perspective and the MTA perspective are not the same.  IMO therein lies the problem.  My opinion.  Carry on. 

 

12 hours ago, Deucey said:

You know in LA, riders took the RTD/LACMTA to court over this, got a consent decree requiring that they add buses when crowding went over a certain threshold consistently, and not only did LACMTA/Metro create Rapid buses (the ones in Red livery), they got more riders and were able to both expand bus service and build more rail.

 isn’t doing better because we’re not forcing it nor NYC/NYS to do better.

To have so many on one bus that we’re not only standing in front of the front door - in contravention of Federal law, we’re now late because the bus can’t operate safely?

Only in NY will passenger safety be compromised because a bean counter needed to save pennies.

These scenarios are not really surprising to me, but very troubling when you consider highly-paid "experts" somehow lack common sense decision-making. (I think the real source of that is from THEM not even using the system they work for, thereby having on-the-ground experiences to guide them.)

This is why I just cannot fathom how, based on any type of measurement method, the MTA does its "all-or-nothing" approach to service delivery. Artics cannot be put onto routes unless the entire route is converted being the biggest head-scratcher to me. A real close second is, "Well, we can't do Limited-Stop because we don't meet this magic threshhold. But if we pack a few more buses consistently, we'll finally do something."

DDOT first brought artics into the fleet back in 1989 with the 14 Neoplans, and even though Wikipedia says they were officially retired in 2002, they weren't hitting the streets with any regularity past 1999-ish. Primary reason was eight routes were consolidated into four long ones: 90--Baker/Oakland, 93--Gratiot/Michigan, 96--Joy/Vernor and 97--Woodward/Jefferson. Out of those, the 93 and 97 were covering the busier streets, and also had supplemental short-turns. Since Woodward Av is the heaviest corridor, 40-footers were scheduled between the Fairgrounds and Downtown, while the artics did both Woodward Av and Jefferson Av. (40s were also used on the combined route, but the artics were there to do most of the work.) Now, on the 90 and 96, the artics were used to enable service to be provided, but at higher headways (also supplementing the use of 40s on the long routes).

In 1999, Mayor Archer split all of these routes back up, and the Neoplans were pretty much left to die from lack of maintenance (the fleet had been transitioning to all Nova RTS). Population had also started its downward trend, so lower ridership was also a factor in not needing to run the big belchers.

While ridership bottomed-out (due to not only loss of population, but the drastic service cuts -- which pretty much "encouraged" people to take on the expense of either their own car or use taxis/friends' cars for rides), the RTS sufficed. Once Mayor Duggan came in and started making changes the citizens (who stuck it out pre-/during-bankruptcy) were demanding of city services, DDOT was placed near the top of the list. 10 Flyer XD60s were brought in, and divvied up primarily along the three heaviest corridors: Woodward Av (#1), Gratiot Av (#2), and Grand River Av (#3) -- as all of those routes were to return to 24-hour service. All the XD60s were to do was supplement the weekday schedules -- evening out the loads (once again). [The XD60s and the 2014/2015 XD40s only operated weekdays and were almost meticulously maintained on weekends.]

Ridership responded upwards, and not only on those artic corridors. Today, the artics still work weekdays only, but are not limited to those three corridors. Because of overcrowding issues, they also do primarily afternoon runs on the two busiest crosstowns, 7--Seven Mile and 17--Eight Mile. However, both of those routes had headways adjusted steadily downwards (because of overcrowding), and the artic trips do what they're supposed to: even out the loads. More XD60s are on the horizon to help supplement service where they are needed, not to do a "total conversion" like what the MTA does to a route.

Back to New York and the subject of this thread:

The components of my previous "circulator" idea were: [a] Run Limited-Stop service in both directions during Peak almost specifically for customers wanting Ferry service, [no B due to shortcut] [c] Limited-Stop does not need to do the entire Local route, depending on load points, but should be Limited-Stop the entire route (once again, those customers wanting direct service will specifically choose those buses just like Express Bus customers choose theirs), [d] Local Service would still operate, but would not serve the Ferry directly, instead offering transfers to the circulator route, [e] Limited-Stop routes would not pick-up/drop-off between the Ferry and a circulator transfer point, even if traversing the same road(s), and [f] Circulator would operate a hybrid Local/Limited-Stop service (like a crosstown) hitting major transfer points and serve the Ferry, but would be structured such that Ferry customers be able to rely on a regular service in/out of the Ferry terminal (like the Airport shuttles for parking or rental car companies employ). Artics would be inserted to even the loads, not as an excuse to run less service.

Circulator service could be just limited to Peak times, but really something like SBS operating hours across all days. During non-Peak times, those Local routes could always do the short-turn for the circulator versus always serving the Ferry. Once again, you're still able to serve those customers who are Ferry-bound, yet if they miss those specific trips, they can still get there. But -- your Local routes are serving the other customers who are just going between the other points as well. Essentially, you're giving SIR service across the entire island.

Of course, proper execution would contribute to better on-time performance all around. Ferry-bound customers would be, for the most part, specifically served, while Local customers wouldn't "bog-down" service by going to the intermediate stops. But those Local customers would equally be served as well. Plus you'd curtail the "whichever bus shows up first" crowding we've all experienced that can vary sometimes day to day (which leads to irregular performance issues and bunching).

At the end of the day, if you actually had the MTA "planners" actually riding the buses, and they, themselves, having to make a certain connection or being SOL because of scheduling, more common-sense would rule and just maybe the MTA could win-back the customers THEY have forced to use anything-but the MTA.

Edited July 10, 2019 by DetSMART45

[Trainmaster5]

12 hours ago, Deucey said:

You know in LA, riders took the RTD/LACMTA to court over this, got a consent decree requiring that they add buses when crowding went over a certain threshold consistently, and not only did LACMTA/Metro create Rapid buses (the ones in Red livery), they got more riders and were able to both expand bus service and build more rail.

 isn’t doing better because we’re not forcing it nor NYC/NYS to do better.

To have so many on one bus that we’re not only standing in front of the front door - in contravention of Federal law, we’re now late because the bus can’t operate safely?

Only in NY will passenger safety be compromised because a bean counter needed to save pennies.

That's why I get so riled up about the transportation system in the downstate NY area.  The bean counters have absolutely  no expertise in transit issues per se.  I'm sure that their ledgers all add up at the end of the day but I doubt if they ever have thought about the correlation between their work and the real world. Numbers on a spreadsheet or a packed bus,  subway or rail car. I doubt that any bean counters can process that combination the same way a commuter would.  My opinion.  Carry on. 

[B35 via Church]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 8:40 PM, checkmatechamp13 said:

Wouldn't that increase in runtime cost more money?

Not if you have less drivers & less resources on the road, no....

The basis of your inquiry runs on the assumption that status quo would be maintained.

18 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

Let me overoversimplify the MTA way of thinking. Going back to the example Deucey gave where the bus could arrive at:58 but was scheduled to arrive later. Knowing how the MTA thinks if there were 5 trips scheduled in the preceding hour they would drop one of those runs and adjust the running time of the remaining four trips. The MTA logic is the same amount of ridership and fares would be there for one less run. One less B/O to hire.  Less benefits,  less pension costs  Do you actually believe that the MTA cares which yacht a rider boards ? The overcrowding of the remaining buses equates to the increased running time.

Expendability.

18 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

 What I've been trying to say in my last posts is that the riders perspective and the MTA perspective are not the same.....

Exactly why I've been, and will still continue to parrot on these parts, that the MTA does not care about the rider....

And they don't.

[FamousNYLover]

On 6/26/2018 at 7:05 AM, Deucey said:

 

Maybe this B/O properly came from NICE Bus possibility.

[Deucey]

3 hours ago, DetSMART45 said:

Today, the artics still work weekdays only, but are not limited to those three corridors. Because of overcrowding issues, they also do primarily afternoon runs on the two busiest crosstowns, 7--Seven Mile and 17--Eight Mile. However, both of those routes had headways adjusted steadily downwards (because of overcrowding), and the artic trips do what they're supposed to: even out the loads. More XD60s are on the horizon to help supplement service where they are needed, not to do a "total conversion" like what the MTA does to a route.

Of course here’s me being surprised that both the 7 Mile bus is busy when I remember before 2000 that you could three 22-Greenfield buses before one 7 Mile bus showed up, and that now there’s a bus on 8 Mile doing two-way service.

But I haven’t paid attention to a Detroit bus in almost two decades so...

[DetSMART45]

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

Of course here’s me being surprised that both the 7 Mile bus is busy when I remember before 2000 that you could three 22-Greenfield buses before one 7 Mile bus showed up, and that now there’s a bus on 8 Mile doing two-way service.

But I haven’t paid attention to a Detroit bus in almost two decades so...

7 Mile now is basically full from east side to west side, almost all runs except after 9 pm 'til about 5 am (weekends don't jump off until around 7am (Sat)/9am (Sun)). Back in those days, the route was split at Ponchartrain (45-7 Mile East and 23-Hamilton). Even after 7 Mile was consolidated into one route, Hamilton was still coming from the park and going via 7 Mile to Northland (bit of overlap). Now that overlap's gone with the Hamilton going via McNichols/John R/Fairgrounds/Meijer 8 Mile. (7 Mile is 24 hour now also.)

8 Mile is SOOOO much better today than it was for decades. Now, bus can be full (with standees) going east from Evergreen and that's with a good 10-12 consistently getting on at Lahser, and it stays full to Gratiot; westbound, you'll have a 2/3 full bus just between St. John Hospital and Gratiot. Weekday headways are 15 AM/25 mid/15 PM/45 eve/50 overnight, and weekends are 25 Sat/35 Sun. And also now operates 24 hours. Weekends are full as well -- totally shocked me a load of 30 on at the Fairgrounds at 7 am on a Saturday.

Was waiting at the Fairgrounds one afternoon, and heard a few customers waiting for the 8 Mile breathe a sigh of relief when an artic pulled in, saying they'll finally get a seat. And a few westbound customers waiting not too pleased that it wasn't theirs.

Even as busy as these have gotten, most of the time they're running on-time. But that's because the road supervisors are out timing (and writing operators up), and severely late/MIAs have become a rarity.

[Deucey]

2 hours ago, DetSMART45 said:

7 Mile now is basically full from east side to west side, almost all runs except after 9 pm 'til about 5 am (weekends don't jump off until around 7am (Sat)/9am (Sun)). Back in those days, the route was split at Ponchartrain (45-7 Mile East and 23-Hamilton). Even after 7 Mile was consolidated into one route, Hamilton was still coming from the park and going via 7 Mile to Northland (bit of overlap). Now that overlap's gone with the Hamilton going via McNichols/John R/Fairgrounds/Meijer 8 Mile. (7 Mile is 24 hour now also.)

8 Mile is SOOOO much better today than it was for decades. Now, bus can be full (with standees) going east from Evergreen and that's with a good 10-12 consistently getting on at Lahser, and it stays full to Gratiot; westbound, you'll have a 2/3 full bus just between St. John Hospital and Gratiot. Weekday headways are 15 AM/25 mid/15 PM/45 eve/50 overnight, and weekends are 25 Sat/35 Sun. And also now operates 24 hours. Weekends are full as well -- totally shocked me a load of 30 on at the Fairgrounds at 7 am on a Saturday.

Was waiting at the Fairgrounds one afternoon, and heard a few customers waiting for the 8 Mile breathe a sigh of relief when an artic pulled in, saying they'll finally get a seat. And a few westbound customers waiting not too pleased that it wasn't theirs.

Even as busy as these have gotten, most of the time they're running on-time. But that's because the road supervisors are out timing (and writing operators up), and severely late/MIAs have become a rarity.

Now what did they do with the transfer center on JL Hudson - since Northland shut down?

[Deucey]

7 hours ago, FamousNYLover said:

Maybe this B/O properly came from NICE Bus possibility.

Maybe. At the time I wasn’t aware  had that stupid arrival window rule, so I do feel bad pointing out his control number.

But thanks to this post, I cannot blame drivers for messing up my commute when it’s their bosses and their bosses bosses imposing stupid anti-customer policies.

But that’s how management in a union environment in a bureaucratic and liability-fearing organization works - instead of trusting union members’ judgment to do the job well, they micromanage to the point their bonus or annual review is what determines the customer experience instead of the other way round.

That’s why  is the way it is.

[DetSMART45]

13 hours ago, Deucey said:

Now what did they do with the transfer center on JL Hudson - since Northland shut down?

After Northland was effectively mothballed, the City of Southfield bought the entire property (Northland Dr to JL Hudson Dr and Lodge/Northwestern Hwy to Greenfield). Prior to fencing everything off, they completely re-did Northland Dr (which the transit center loop area was off of), and got SMART and DDOT to split the routes between two transit centers: Northland Dr (10, 16, 17, 415 and 420 loop through) and JL Hudson (16, 400, 405 terminal; 415 loop through; 10 terminal now at Providence Hospital), with the 46 terminal at OCC Southfield (runs weekday Peak only now). Now, since they're doing work on JL Hudson, 16 terminal is moved to the Northland Dr area (people are NOT happy about that), same with SMART 400 and 405. 60-Evergreen now stays on Evergreen to 10 Mile/Northwestern.

Don't usually go through there as much now, so no idea if the city has started bulldozing the mall. However, I have seen on some trips out to Pontiac that Summit Place Mall is no more. The developer/owner told Waterford demolition was going to (finally) happen, and it did -- practically everything is gone except for cleanup of the rubble -- end to end. And that started around April 30, so just a couple months time.

And since they demolished Wonderland Mall and Livonia Mall in Livonia, DDOT no longer goes down 7 Mile -- it goes to the Meijer at Grand River/McNichols via Lahser. The only DDOT routes that go into "suburbia" now are the 38 to Middlebelt/Schoolcraft via Plymouth Rd, and the 60 to Southfield. The 41 still goes through Dearborn/River Rouge to the water plant on Jefferson (but not north of 8 Mile to 13/Woodward) and the old 14 (now 8) still serves Dearborn, but now ends at Telegraph at all times.