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2017 Subway Ridership

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1 hour ago, R68OnBroadway said:

It's probably lower because a good portion of the people there transfer, and turnstile jumping is maybe also a factor given that it is in East New York.

The catchment area around the station is low-density (cemetery, industrial areas, etc) so you mostly have people coming off buses, plus the people who live within a few blocks west of the station. Also like you said, people transferring don't count.

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4 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The catchment area around the station is low-density (cemetery, industrial areas, etc) so you mostly have people coming off buses, plus the people who live within a few blocks west of the station. Also like you said, people transferring don't count.

Bus transfers are counted in turnstile movements, though. That's why Jamaica Center, Sutphin/Archer, and Jamaica-179 rank so highly.

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7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The catchment area around the station is low-density (cemetery, industrial areas, etc) so you mostly have people coming off buses, plus the people who live within a few blocks west of the station. Also like you said, people transferring don't count.

The area is being redeveloped after a rezoning.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/planning/plans/east-new-york/east-new-york-1.page

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11 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

The catchment area around the station is low-density (cemetery, industrial areas, etc) so you mostly have people coming off buses, plus the people who live within a few blocks west of the station. Also like you said, people transferring don't count.

That's the exact reason why many knowledgeable people don't rely on the " top 10" lists as the sole source of ridership at all locations. 

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2 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

That's the exact reason why many knowledgeable people don't rely on the " top 10" lists as the sole source of ridership at all locations. 

Hopefully the information situation will improve in a few years.

IIRC TfL now uses the movements of devices detected by wifi to guesstimate station pedestrian flow and usage; most people generally around carry the same amount of devices, so it provides better information than we have now with random samples collected manually.

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2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Hopefully the information situation will improve in a few years.

IIRC TfL now uses the movements of devices detected by wifi to guesstimate station pedestrian flow and usage; most people generally around carry the same amount of devices, so it provides better information than we have now with random samples collected manually.

That's the main reason why I've always taken those lists with a jaundiced eye. A person who entered the system at  Jamaica Center,  Sutphin-LIRR (J) or Rockaway Parkway (L) and passes through Broadway- East New York is not counted there although that person takes up as much space as someone who has entered the system at that station. I've always preferred to refer to the usage metric when discussing this with the folks in schoolcar or in Operations and Planning that I knew personally. I actually picked up that habit of observation many years ago as a public school student with a free bus and subway pass and from my older NYPD family members. That way of thinking was the reason why my schoolcar instructor stopped me in the hallway at 370 Jay Street one day and took me to meet the Chief Trainmaster and the Desk Trainmasters on duty that morning. I actually told them what I just posted about usage and observation as a schoolkids and then as a provisional Railroad Porter and it impressed them. That and the fact that I'd worked the stations on the old Myrtle line across the street from 370 Jay, 168th on the Jamaica,  Gunhill upper and lower, Bowery and Essex station and the tower. Best advice I got that day was " keep your eyes open and your nose clean kid and you'll be okay down here". I still do that observation thing however I travel. I was surprised that some people working in the RCC didn't know about the Summer ridership situation on Wednesdays on the Bronx (2) and (5) lines. Been that way for at least 30 years 😁. Sorry for the long post. Carry on .

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10 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

That's the main reason why I've always taken those lists with a jaundiced eye. A person who entered the system at  Jamaica Center,  Sutphin-LIRR (J) or Rockaway Parkway (L) and passes through Broadway- East New York is not counted there although that person takes up as much space as someone who has entered the system at that station. I've always preferred to refer to the usage metric when discussing this with the folks in schoolcar or in Operations and Planning that I knew personally. I actually picked up that habit of observation many years ago as a public school student with a free bus and subway pass and from my older NYPD family members. That way of thinking was the reason why my schoolcar instructor stopped me in the hallway at 370 Jay Street one day and took me to meet the Chief Trainmaster and the Desk Trainmasters on duty that morning. I actually told them what I just posted about usage and observation as a schoolkids and then as a provisional Railroad Porter and it impressed them. That and the fact that I'd worked the stations on the old Myrtle line across the street from 370 Jay, 168th on the Jamaica,  Gunhill upper and lower, Bowery and Essex station and the tower. Best advice I got that day was " keep your eyes open and your nose clean kid and you'll be okay down here". I still do that observation thing however I travel. I was surprised that some people working in the RCC didn't know about the Summer ridership situation on Wednesdays on the Bronx (2) and (5) lines. Been that way for at least 30 years 😁. Sorry for the long post. Carry on .

By that logic, most of the top 10 list consists of subway to subway transfers or subway to mainline rail stations, so are the latter type of stations even more crowded than the stats suggest? Based on personal experience my answer to that is yes.

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I don't think these numbers are cause for too much alarm. Clearly poor service has played a part in the decline, but no matter how you look at the data there is still an increase from 2012. The system was buckling at capacity in 2015 and it's not possible to sustain the level of ridership growth given the current infrastructure situation. There will probably be another decrease in 2018, albeit less drastic.

 

Graphs

https://imgur.com/a/RVJ4SQS

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4 hours ago, Caelestor said:

By that logic, most of the top 10 list consists of subway to subway transfers or subway to mainline rail stations, so are the latter type of stations even more crowded than the stats suggest? Based on personal experience my answer to that is yes.

Subway to mainline stations are counted in the current statistics, since mainline platforms are not behind the subway turnstile gates.

The only thing it's really bad at is subway to subway, and good luck trying to figure out if one passageway is more heavily utilized than the other.

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12 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

Subway to mainline stations are counted in the current statistics, since mainline platforms are not behind the subway turnstile gates.

The only thing it's really bad at is subway to subway, and good luck trying to figure out if one passageway is more heavily utilized than the other.

Sorry I meant the former, good catch. 

On the topic of transfers, there's a difference between long transfers and same-platform transfers, and same-platform transfers can have different crowding levels depending on the width of the platform.

 

14 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

I don't think these numbers are cause for too much alarm. Clearly poor service has played a part in the decline, but no matter how you look at the data there is still an increase from 2012. The system was buckling at capacity in 2015 and it's not possible to sustain the level of ridership growth given the current infrastructure situation. There will probably be another decrease in 2018, albeit less drastic.

 

Graphs

https://imgur.com/a/RVJ4SQS

I think ridership in Manhattan is fine, but the outer borough ridership is getting hurt because of ridesharing competition and service degradation, especially on weekends. I think subway closures have to be planned and communicated better so that a one-seat ride doesn't turn into a three-seat+ journey with 20+ minutes added on.

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There also needs to be an end point to these service changes. What I mean is that riders need to know how long a particular maintenance project will take so it doesn't feel like they're doing the same work forever.

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On 7/16/2018 at 6:53 PM, Caelestor said:

Sorry I meant the former, good catch. 

On the topic of transfers, there's a difference between long transfers and same-platform transfers, and same-platform transfers can have different crowding levels depending on the width of the platform.

 

I think ridership in Manhattan is fine, but the outer borough ridership is getting hurt because of ridesharing competition and service degradation, especially on weekends. I think subway closures have to be planned and communicated better so that a one-seat ride doesn't turn into a three-seat+ journey with 20+ minutes added on.

20 minutes added on... Please. More than that. The subways have been HORRIBLE this week. I got stuck on the (6) train the other night because of some sort of delay at 125th street.  Track work every night... Worst of all this track work starts now at 20:30 on a weeknight!  Ridiculous...

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1 hour ago, Lance said:

There also needs to be an end point to these service changes. What I mean is that riders need to know how long a particular maintenance project will take so it doesn't feel like they're doing the same work forever.

Exactly. The corollary to "get it done" is to "get it right."

I remember them closing the stairs at my subway stop for a long period of time to redo them, only to redo them again shortly later because they had boosted the flooding requirements post-Sandy.

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On 7/16/2018 at 3:53 PM, Caelestor said:

Sorry I meant the former, good catch. 

On the topic of transfers, there's a difference between long transfers and same-platform transfers, and same-platform transfers can have different crowding levels depending on the width of the platform.

 

I think ridership in Manhattan is fine, but the outer borough ridership is getting hurt because of ridesharing competition and service degradation, especially on weekends. I think subway closures have to be planned and communicated better so that a one-seat ride doesn't turn into a three-seat+ journey with 20+ minutes added on.

It's not just ridesharing. With all the service changes, bikes are now much more popular than they were, the added lanes have made it safer to use them, and on top of that with a bicycle you're not at the beck and call of the schedule that the buses might be adhering to. If biking were safer in the outer outer boroughs (bike lanes that could get you across the Cross Island, more bike parking spots) you would probably see bus ridership completely collapse.

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On 7/15/2018 at 4:56 PM, bobtehpanda said:

Bus transfers are counted in turnstile movements, though. That's why Jamaica Center, Sutphin/Archer, and Jamaica-179 rank so highly.

Right, but at the same time, Broadway Junction isn't a bus hub on the  same level as Flushing or Jamaica. Coming from Eastern Queens, the first subway station you hit will be one of those stations. By comparison, with Broadway Junction, you can take the Q24/56 to connect to the (A)(C)(L) or you can take the (J) train. You can take the B20/83 to reach Broadway Junction, or you can get off at Livonia Avenue. Depending on your exact location in ENY, you can take the B6 or B14 over to the (L) or the B13 over to the (A)(C) as opposed to riding a bus all the way down to the northwest corner of the neighborhood to catch those lines.

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