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JFK Depot

Flipping the Northern Terminals for the B and C

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1 hour ago, paulrivera said:

8 minute headways are not feasible in a subway system with constant weekend GO's. As it is they cut the (C) and (D) to 12 minute headways and the (A) to 10 just to fit them all thru CPW.

 

1 hour ago, officiallyliam said:

Right, but if our flagging rules weren't so primitive, and the trip down the express on CPW wasn't kneecapped by timers, you'd be able to run more frequent weekend service on more of the subway. Most improvements to service (such as a better weekend (C)) are very much tied to changing many poor operational practices.

Exactly. And now the agency is waking up to track barriers, so we don't even have to have the hard conversations with the union. 

See page 45

http://web.mta.info/mta/news/books/pdf/180521_1245_Finance.pdf

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4 hours ago, officiallyliam said:

First of all, the (C) doesn't really have a length problem: it's 40 stops and has a 1h10 scheduled runtime on the weekends, which is pretty average. Yes, you're right that weekend (C) service is pretty dismal and often unreliable, but why can't we start just by fixing that? The (C) is a popular route on the weekends (I'd hazard it's more popular than a weekend (B)) and if it was operated well on an 8-minute headway it would do just fine. Running the (B) won't actually solve this problem, so much as put a Band-Aid over it; plus, the (C) has a better routing for weekend service, running from PABT and Penn Station where people are coming in to the city, to Central Park West and Lower Manhattan where those people are going. I'd also add that more service at Fulton local stops is probably needed more than a weekend express on Brighton, where increasing (Q) service would do more for more people than running the (B).

When the (M) is needed 24/7 on 6th Avenue - which is certainly going to happen - run it to Queens Plaza or Forest Hills, not somewhere totally out of its normal route (yes, this includes 96th Street). It's much easier to say, "the (B) doesn't run on weekends, take this train which normally parallels it instead," than it is to try to get people to understand, "there's no (B) today, but the (M) goes to Harlem (or the Upper East Side) instead of Queens just to make up for that."

Ideally, I WOULD run the (M) 24/7 to 71st-Continental because that DOES make the most sense, however, as you know, with CBTC work going on and other work on QB much of the time that is not possible.  That's another reason why on weekends assuming that is still the case after the (L) is shut down I would have the (M) late nights and weekends run to 145, combining the (M) with the (B) at a time when having more LOCAL service on 6th Avenue and CPW is more important than any additional express service.  

Main purpose is to give Broadway-Brooklyn riders 6th Avenue service.  Sending the (M) to CPW late nights and weekends if you can't send it to 71-Continental helps with the UWS.

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9 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Ideally, I WOULD run the (M) 24/7 to 71st-Continental because that DOES make the most sense, however, as you know, with CBTC work going on and other work on QB much of the time that is not possible.  That's another reason why on weekends assuming that is still the case after the (L) is shut down I would have the (M) late nights and weekends run to 145, combining the (M) with the (B) at a time when having more LOCAL service on 6th Avenue and CPW is more important than any additional express service.  

Main purpose is to give Broadway-Brooklyn riders 6th Avenue service.  Sending the (M) to CPW late nights and weekends if you can't send it to 71-Continental helps with the UWS.

Keep the weekend (M) at Essex. When CBTC is done, send it to Queens on weekends.

Run the (A) and (C) at 7.5 tph (8 minute intervals) during the weekend. Without (or with faster) flagging the (A)(C) and (D) on one track is 22.5 tph; I think we can handle that, and anyway, weekend work on CPW isn't permanent.

Do the same on the (Q) - 8 minute headways.

Keep the (B) in the yard and the (M) off of CPW. Everyone's happy, and nobody's confused because they were trying to get to East 53rd and ended up at West 103rd.

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28 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

Keep the weekend (M) at Essex. When CBTC is done, send it to Queens on weekends.

Run the (A) and (C) at 7.5 tph (8 minute intervals) during the weekend. Without (or with faster) flagging the (A)(C) and (D) on one track is 22.5 tph; I think we can handle that, and anyway, weekend work on CPW isn't permanent.

Do the same on the (Q) - 8 minute headways.

Keep the (B) in the yard and the (M) off of CPW. Everyone's happy, and nobody's confused because they were trying to get to East 53rd and ended up at West 103rd.

Do you really think people are THAT stupid?  If the signs make clear where the lines go on weekends, people won't get on the wrong line (and besides, most looking for East 53rd in that scenario would otherwise have to transfer to the (E) anyway).    Most would have a clue and just get the (E) at 7th Avenue. 

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4 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Do you really think people are THAT stupid? 

Yes. When was the last time you saw someone look at a sign in the subway?

35 minutes ago, officiallyliam said:

Keep the weekend (M) at Essex. When CBTC is done, send it to Queens on weekends.

Or, if you need a better weekend (M) (that doesn't go to 96), Chambers and Broad are there. 

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7 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Yes. When was the last time you saw someone look at a sign in the subway?

Or, if you need a better weekend (M) (that doesn't go to 96), Chambers and Broad are there. 

Then I would run the (M) to West 4th or 42nd and have the (D) and (F) both go local.  Given it's weekend service, you can get away with that.

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19 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Do you really think people are THAT stupid?

People don't even pay attention to modern day G.O.s. 

As in you can go online and look for ways to travel this weekend and see if your trip can be affected. Not to even mention all the posters in stations.

Edited by MysteriousBtrain
Just in case I get a certain counterargument from Mr. Wallyhorse.

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On 7/17/2018 at 8:24 PM, RR503 said:

I'm gonna bold the important part of that sentence for ya. I think rereading what you posted and then looking at a map of NYC should show just how much shorter the (C) is. 

Beyond the issues @Caelestor brings up, there's the fact that there simply wouldn't be space for the (B) most weekends. CPW often has some work going on, which usually requires single tracking, and always means flagging -- facts which limit corridor capacity to 15tph/direction on most weekends. Unless you want four services running on sixteen minute headways, I'd recommend you limit yourself to three lines per corridor on weekends. 

They ran the (A), (B), (C) and (D) on CPW on weekends from 1998 to 2001 (the (B) turned at 145th). They had weekend work projects going on. How did they manage it then?

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5 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

They ran the (A), (B), (C) and (D) on CPW on weekends from 1998 to 2001 (the (B) turned at 145th). They had weekend work projects going on. How did they manage it then?

Remember adjacent track flagging has only been a thing since the mid 2000s. There were those workers killed around then — their deaths triggered the creation of the Track Safety Task Force, which recommended the implementation of flagging on tracks adjacent to work zones, creating the capacity restrictions we have today. 

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4 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Then I would run the (M) to West 4th or 42nd and have the (D) and (F) both go local.  Given it's weekend service, you can get away with that.

No, because then the (D) and (M) would have to cross in front of each other at grade. Even with weekend service, it would be unwise to do that. And the (D) would then have to switch back to express between 34th and 42nd. I’d much rather run the (B) if we really need a CPW Local/6th Ave service on weekends. 

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue

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5 hours ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

They ran the (A), (B), (C) and (D) on CPW on weekends from 1998 to 2001 (the (B) turned at 145th). They had weekend work projects going on. How did they manage it then?

Actually it was from November 2000 - July 2001 they ran weekend (B) Service to 145. Before that it ended at 21st Street during the weekday evenings and weekends and from 1998-Early 1999, service temporary ended at 57th Street and I actually remember that whole ordeal. 

Edited by Daniel The Cool
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5 hours ago, Caelestor said:

Apparently the (B) ran weekends to 168 St when the (C) was suspended and the (A) was running local north of 59 St. Also surprising is that the (B)(D)(orangeQ) all used the same pair of tracks to get into Manhattan, and the (orangeQ) had to merge onto the local tracks to access the 63 St line.

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/calcagno-2000-01-25.gif

Yep that was all due to the WTC Center Station rehab that had to reroute (E) Trains to Euclid Avenue. 

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9 hours ago, Caelestor said:

Apparently the (B) ran weekends to 168 St when the (C) was suspended and the (A) was running local north of 59 St. Also surprising is that the (B)(D)(orangeQ) all used the same pair of tracks to get into Manhattan, and the (orangeQ) had to merge onto the local tracks to access the 63 St line.

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/maps/calcagno-2000-01-25.gif

(orangeQ) used express tracks only. The 63 St line branches from both the local and express of 6 Av/QBL.

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20 hours ago, Daniel The Cool said:

Actually it was from November 2000 - July 2001 they ran weekend (B) Service to 145. Before that it ended at 21st Street during the weekday evenings and weekends and from 1998-Early 1999, service temporary ended at 57th Street and I actually remember that whole ordeal. 

Oh yes, now I remember... they had to fix the 63rd St Tunnel tracks around that time (1998-early 1999) due to issues with the trackbed, which forced the (orangeQ) and the weekend (B) to be cut back to 57th St. I guess there was also a period of about a year and a half where the (B) resumed serving Queensbridge on weekends after that work was finished and they began running various combinations of the (E)(F)(R) through 63rd on weekends, which sent the (B) to CPW on Saturdays and Sundays.

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue

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You cannot add more trains, let alone another line, to Central Park West on the weekends due to all the GOs. Between the work being done on 6 Av, and the occasional work on CPW, the trains are stacked as it is. 

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