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Union Tpke

LIRR/MNRR Proposals Thread

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Here is one I came up with.

149th Street Project

This station was planned to be built in the 1910s, and as a result signs were put up at the 149th Street-Grand Concourse stop.

149th_Street_-_Grand_Concourse_to_never_

Eliminating the at-grade junction at Mott Haven will do a lot toward increasing capacity on Metro-North.

See here:

 

 

Edited by Union Tpke
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12 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Here is one I came up with.

149th Street Project

This station was planned to be built in the 1910s, and as a result signs were put up at the 149th Street-Grand Concourse stop.

Eliminating the at-grade junction at Mott Haven will do a lot toward increasing capacity on Metro-North.

The station isn't a bad idea because it allows MNR riders to take the (2) to Harlem and the West Side, but this track diagram has to be reworked. Currently Mott Haven Junction itself stretches from south of 144 St to 149 St. Were the station to be built, there is not enough space north of the station to build a flyover track without a very harsh curve.

Have the west platform exclusively serve the Hudson Line and the east platform serve the Harlem and New Haven lines, then build one NB flyover track from today's second rightmost track between 138 and 144 Sts.

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18 minutes ago, Caelestor said:

The station isn't a bad idea because it allows MNR riders to take the (2) to Harlem and the West Side, but this track diagram has to be reworked. Currently Mott Haven Junction itself stretches from south of 144 St to 149 St. Were the station to be built, there is not enough space north of the station to build a flyover track without a very harsh curve.

Have the west platform exclusively serve the Hudson Line and the east platform serve the Harlem and New Haven lines, then build one NB flyover track from today's second rightmost track between 138 and 144 Sts.

That is why I would have the station end a few hundred feet south of 149th Street. It would serve as a nice transfer station.

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A couple of things regarding a 149th Street station:

First and foremost, I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of space available for such a station. The distance between 149th Street and 144th Street, the platform lengths in the illustration, is approximately 720 feet, or about nine cars long. Immediately south of that are the approaches to the bridge and the junction is directly north of the location. Fitting both a new station and a flying junction in that area would be extremely difficult, if not impossible with the limited available space. A station further south from 149th Street with a flying junction immediately north of it would still be difficult because it would likely require some sharp curves to get from the Hudson line to the main line and the bridge. Even reducing the footprint of the station would not make much difference here as the area is simply too condensed to support both.

A station there on its own would be doable, though using Calestor's addendum would likely require all Hudson line trains to use tracks 2 and 4 between 125th Street and the junction, which would lead to interesting operations during the rush hours. The other problem I have with this idea is, who benefits from this station? The Yankee Stadium station (I'm not calling it by its ridiculous name) is literally a stone's throw away from where this one would be, making it a complete waste for Hudson line commuters. On the Harlem line, Melrose is fairly close and an extension of that station further under the apartments would be a better use of funds in my opinion.

I'm not against removing the grade crossing at the Mott Haven junction, but I don't see how both that and a new station in the area would be possible.

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This proposal might sound controversal but an LIRR route starting from Grand Central and ending AT JFK Airport. 

Stops 

- Grand Central 

-(Lexington Ave-63rd Street) (if that's even part of ESA)

- Sunnyside  (infill)

- Woodside

- Rego Park

(Uses RBB but technically bypasses everything, south of Liberty Avenue, the ROW is split in Half) 

- Aqueduct Racetrack ( (A) trains no longer stop here)

(Goes underground before Howard Beach station)

- Federal Circle (maybe)

- JFK Airport with platforms in between all terminals. 

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1 hour ago, Lance said:

A couple of things regarding a 149th Street station:

First and foremost, I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of space available for such a station. The distance between 149th Street and 144th Street, the platform lengths in the illustration, is approximately 720 feet, or about nine cars long. Immediately south of that are the approaches to the bridge

The line is already at grade in the area. There was once a big 138th Street station.

http://www.iridetheharlemline.com/2015/05/21/the-lost-train-station-of-the-bronx-138th-street-mott-haven/

138_1958_3.jpg

and the junction is directly north of the location. Fitting both a new station and a flying junction in that area would be extremely difficult, if not impossible with the limited available space. A station further south from 149th Street with a flying junction immediately north of it would still be difficult because it would likely require some sharp curves to get from the Hudson line to the main line and the bridge. Even reducing the footprint of the station would not make much difference here as the area is simply too condensed to support both.

A station there on its own would be doable, though using Calestor's addendum would likely require all Hudson line trains to use tracks 2 and 4 between 125th Street and the junction, which would lead to interesting operations during the rush hours. The other problem I have with this idea is, who benefits from this station? The Yankee Stadium station (I'm not calling it by its ridiculous name) is literally a stone's throw away from where this one would be, making it a complete waste for Hudson line commuters. On the Harlem line, Melrose is fairly close and an extension of that station further under the apartments would be a better use of funds in my opinion.

I'm not against removing the grade crossing at the Mott Haven junction, but I don't see how both that and a new station in the area would be possible.

 

I overlaid my plan over a satellite map of the area via Google Maps.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ruPbDaCFqbKAPxwzTRaGSUTAYKsq2BU1&usp=sharing

The Yankee Stadium station does not serve the South Bronx. The street grid in the vicinity of that station makes it inaccessible, and puts fewer people/jobs within .5 miles of the statoin. With the redevelopment of the area https://ny.curbed.com/maps/south-bronx-new-york-construction-map, additional transit options will be needed, and crowding on the 2, 4, 5, and 6, will need to be kept in check. This station would allow for reverse-commuting between the South Bronx and Westchester/CT. This station would serve the Hudson, New Haven and Harlem lines, which the Melrose and Yankee Stadium stations don't.

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3 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

This proposal might sound controversal but an LIRR route starting from Grand Central and ending AT JFK Airport. 

Stops 

- Grand Central 

-(Lexington Ave-63rd Street) (if that's even part of ESA)

- Sunnyside  (infill)

- Woodside

- Rego Park

(Uses RBB but technically bypasses everything, south of Liberty Avenue, the ROW is split in Half) 

- Aqueduct Racetrack ( (A) trains no longer stop here)

(Goes underground before Howard Beach station)

- Federal Circle (maybe)

- JFK Airport with platforms in between all terminals. 

Just to bumb my post with a new map I'm working on

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1s71YkYKDQJFWN4MXc2Jy-J1IaMsU91R6&usp=sharing

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On 7/20/2018 at 10:37 AM, Lance said:

A couple of things regarding a 149th Street station:

First and foremost, I think you're greatly overestimating the amount of space available for such a station. The distance between 149th Street and 144th Street, the platform lengths in the illustration, is approximately 720 feet, or about nine cars long. Immediately south of that are the approaches to the bridge and the junction is directly north of the location. Fitting both a new station and a flying junction in that area would be extremely difficult, if not impossible with the limited available space. A station further south from 149th Street with a flying junction immediately north of it would still be difficult because it would likely require some sharp curves to get from the Hudson line to the main line and the bridge. Even reducing the footprint of the station would not make much difference here as the area is simply too condensed to support both.

A station there on its own would be doable, though using Calestor's addendum would likely require all Hudson line trains to use tracks 2 and 4 between 125th Street and the junction, which would lead to interesting operations during the rush hours. The other problem I have with this idea is, who benefits from this station? The Yankee Stadium station (I'm not calling it by its ridiculous name) is literally a stone's throw away from where this one would be, making it a complete waste for Hudson line commuters. On the Harlem line, Melrose is fairly close and an extension of that station further under the apartments would be a better use of funds in my opinion.

I'm not against removing the grade crossing at the Mott Haven junction, but I don't see how both that and a new station in the area would be possible.

As far as who benefits, definitely subway and bus riders. It would be a well-connected station for the South Bronx, the way that Fordham is a well connected station to the north. This is good for reverse commuters into Connecticut, and if things like Atlantic Ticket become more commonplace that would also be a huge boon to Bronx commuters to Midtown East as well.

As far as things go, if I had to pick one, I would much rather have a 149 St station than a 125 St station.

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Good luck trying to convince riders that there should be a replacement station for 125th Street built at 149th Street. I highly doubt a zero-sum game will work in this instance. You'd have a much better chance of getting a new station built on its own rather than a one for one swap.

I get what you're saying about reverse commuting and even for riders heading into the city, but I'm a bit wary of trying to force the railroads to act as quasi-subway lines because the actual rapid transit options are lacking. If a station were to be built at 149th Street, there would be a stretch of Metro-North in the city where three stations on the Harlem and Hudson lines are less than two miles apart in total from 125th Street to Melrose and East 153rd Street respectively. Though I guess it wouldn't matter given there are several other locations where this occurs. As long as it doesn't drastically slow down the mainline.

To address a point made by @Union Tpke, I believe that once the second 138th Street station was demolished in '72, the tracks between the Park Ave lift bridge and the Mott Haven junction were realigned to straighten the line in that section.

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3 minutes ago, Lance said:

Good luck trying to convince riders that there should be a replacement station for 125th Street built at 149th Street. I highly doubt a zero-sum game will work in this instance. You'd have a much better chance of getting a new station built on its own rather than a one for one swap.

I get what you're saying about reverse commuting and even for riders heading into the city, but I'm a bit wary of trying to force the railroads to act as quasi-subway lines because the actual rapid transit options are lacking. If a station were to be built at 149th Street, there would be a stretch of Metro-North in the city where three stations on the Harlem and Hudson lines are less than two miles apart in total from 125th Street to Melrose and East 153rd Street respectively. Though I guess it wouldn't matter given there are several other locations where this occurs. As long as it doesn't drastically slow down the mainline.

To address a point made by @Union Tpke, I believe that once the second 138th Street station was demolished in '72, the tracks between the Park Ave lift bridge and the Mott Haven junction were realigned to straighten the line in that section.

I think it's a waste of money to put in a station at 149th street because a lot of the people that take the subway at the Hub are within walking distance to Metro-North. I used the Melrose station when I tutored by Boricua College for 2 - 3 years and the ridership patterns were more geared towards people that did the reverse commute. In all fairness though, the frequencies were HORRIBLE at the station, but even with City Ticket and with service running more frequently there, ridership hasn't gone up that much.  It comes down to economics. The area is quite poor with some working class types mixed in. I'm guessing some of the professional types from Boricua College, lawyers that work in the area, etc. may use it, but outside of that it's really hit or miss.  125th street is an important station for those who can't or won't go down to Grand Central, so I can see a huge uproar if any chance was made there, even with all of the junkies hanging around near the station.

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3 hours ago, Lance said:

Good luck trying to convince riders that there should be a replacement station for 125th Street built at 149th Street. I highly doubt a zero-sum game will work in this instance. You'd have a much better chance of getting a new station built on its own rather than a one for one swap.

I get what you're saying about reverse commuting and even for riders heading into the city, but I'm a bit wary of trying to force the railroads to act as quasi-subway lines because the actual rapid transit options are lacking. If a station were to be built at 149th Street, there would be a stretch of Metro-North in the city where three stations on the Harlem and Hudson lines are less than two miles apart in total from 125th Street to Melrose and East 153rd Street respectively. Though I guess it wouldn't matter given there are several other locations where this occurs. As long as it doesn't drastically slow down the mainline.

To address a point made by @Union Tpke, I believe that once the second 138th Street station was demolished in '72, the tracks between the Park Ave lift bridge and the Mott Haven junction were realigned to straighten the line in that section.

I would need to look into that. I wasn't aware of any changes of that sort. However, from the aerial view, it seems as if there is enough space.

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