Public Meetings for Phase 2 of SAS Begin

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I had to attend this meeting for work. I am shocked at how packed it is. Greg Mocker from PIX 11 is here... Interesting presentation. Takeaways thus for:

-East Harlem residents shouldn't hear the roaring of trains like they do from Metro-North currently due to track technology and other measures being taken

-Transfers between the Lexington Avenue should be fairly easy to the and the future line.

-They expect an additional 100,000 riders which should further alleviate stress on the Lexington Avenue line.

 

[RR503]

I assume there was no discussion of cost?

[LGA Link N Train]

So nobody discusseed about how flawed Phase 2 is?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

16 minutes ago, RR503 said:

I assume there was no discussion of cost?

There are public comments going on now... A young guy talked about the need for simplicity in terms of the mezzanines.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

So nobody discusseed about how flawed Phase 2 is?

Flawed in what way? The presentation did talk about how there is the possibility to extend the project north in the future into the Bronx.

[LGA Link N Train]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Flawed in what way? The presentation did talk about how there is the possibility to extend the project north in the future into the Bronx.

No, what I meant by flawed was by construcrion costs and methods, let along the time period

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

No, what I meant by flawed was by construcrion costs and methods, let along the time period

Yeah a few people talked about how they can reduce costs by eliminating or reducing the size of the mezzanines.

[Deucey]

I still don't get why these large mezzanines are needed or required. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

34 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I still don't get why these large mezzanines are needed or required. 

A lot of people came out to make comments about ADA accessibility as well. Even the acknowledged that only about 25% of the system is ADA accessible and East Harlem has a large and growing elderly and senior population. They stated that they want to address that issue more aggressively but some people argued that they need to go beyond what is required by law.

Also lots of talk about the need for more exits to make the three stations accessible to more of the population there. I don't think people realize that such a request adds more costs to the project, not to mention the need to acquire more land.

Some people on this board bitched about Upper East Side residents complaining about noise and dust and rats. Well the people in East Harlem have the same concerns so everyone should be able to complain. Hopefully the works to address this problem better this time around. East Harlem apparently has some of the highest asthma rates in the country. I knew it was bad, but not that bad.

[R68OnBroadway]

53 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Some people on this board bitched about Upper East Side residents complaining about noise and dust and rats. Well the people in East Harlem have the same concerns so everyone should be able to complain. Hopefully the works to address this problem better this time around. East Harlem apparently has some of the highest asthma rates in the country. I knew it was bad, but not that bad.

Triboro traffic problems probably have a lot to do with that... the low quality of the projects there though might also be a factor.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

37 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Triboro traffic problems probably have a lot to do with that... the low quality of the projects there though might also be a factor.

I thought that the turnout from the actual community was poor. Yes it was crowded, but the room wasn't that big, and there were people from all over the place. When you consider that this project is going to be in place for at least the next ten years, with businesses and residents being essentially kicked out to make way for this project, I would've expected a lot more people to show up voicing their concerns.  There were at least two people there that personally had to deal with Phase 1 that I found very interesting and they made some great comments about things that should be addressed/avoided in this phase of the project.

The turnout could've been the result of poor outreach though.  That and there were comments about many people being away on vacation.  This project will definitely change East Harlem in terms of rising rents.  No doubt about it.

[Union Tpke]

10 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I had to attend this meeting for work. I am shocked at how packed it is. Greg Mocker from PIX 11 is here... Interesting presentation. Takeaways thus for:

-East Harlem residents shouldn't hear the roaring of trains like they do from Metro-North currently due to track technology and other measures being taken

-Transfers between the Lexington Avenue should be fairly easy to the and the future line.

-They expect an additional 100,000 riders which should further alleviate stress on the Lexington Avenue line.

 

I thought that that was you. I was sitting right in front of you, and asked whether they collected your tickets. I heard you mention Riverdale and Italy and was all but sure it was you. It was nice meeting you then.

@bobtehpanda I mentioned how unnecessary the large mezzanines are, I discussed future-proofing the ancillary at Lenox, I mentioned the possibility of a layup track in the section built in the 1970s, and suggested that track-laying machines be used.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

11 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

I thought that that was you. I was sitting right in front of you, and asked whether they collected your tickets. I heard you mention Riverdale and Italy and was all but sure it was you. It was nice meeting you then.

@bobtehpanda I mentioned how unnecessary the large mezzanines are, I discussed future-proofing the ancillary at Lenox, I mentioned the possibility of a layup track in the section built in the 1970s, and suggested that track-laying machines be used.

No wonder you were so talkative. I was thinking who is this guy? lol Did you know the young guy that spoke that said he was taking up engineering?

[Union Tpke]

1 minute ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No wonder you were so talkative. I was thinking who is this guy? lol Did you know the young guy that spoke that said he was taking up engineering?

No. I do not.

[rbrome]

Mezzanines aren't the main problem.

Enough sets of stairs to a large mezzanine allows the platform to clear quickly after a train unloads. If the platform is already full of people, and then a train unloads, and everyone needs to travel most of the length of the platform to reach an exit, that's a problem. It's future-proofing for station capacity. You can't add a mezzanine later if you start with a single-level station. 

I suppose they could build the stations with a layout and ceiling height that allows adding a mezzanine later. But then you're really talking about a small difference in cost. You might as well just build the mezzanine from the start. 

The real problem is the corruption between the MTA, the contractors, the unions, and Cuomo himself. These projects are full of no-show jobs, obsolete jobs that literally serve no purpose but are required by the union, pointless and expensive "consulting" contracts, and a lot of unnecessary extras. Walking around Phase I of the SAS, all I see are a ton of unnecessary extra embellishments. It's like someone was trying to win contractor BINGO by using every material known to man on every surface. What should be a simple tile wall instead includes stainless steel, granite, and glass, for no apparent reason other than to involve more contractors and spend more money. The ceiling light fixtures are made as custom and elaborate as possible, again using multiple materials. Most other systems would have exposed concrete walls and ceilings with a nice design, or maybe just some tile over that, but no, the MTA needs to add another few layers of stuff on top of everything. 

[bobtehpanda]

7 hours ago, rbrome said:

Mezzanines aren't the main problem.

Enough sets of stairs to a large mezzanine allows the platform to clear quickly after a train unloads. If the platform is already full of people, and then a train unloads, and everyone needs to travel most of the length of the platform to reach an exit, that's a problem. It's future-proofing for station capacity. You can't add a mezzanine later if you start with a single-level station. 

I suppose they could build the stations with a layout and ceiling height that allows adding a mezzanine later. But then you're really talking about a small difference in cost. You might as well just build the mezzanine from the start. 

The real problem is the corruption between the MTA, the contractors, the unions, and Cuomo himself. These projects are full of no-show jobs, obsolete jobs that literally serve no purpose but are required by the union, pointless and expensive "consulting" contracts, and a lot of unnecessary extras. Walking around Phase I of the SAS, all I see are a ton of unnecessary extra embellishments. It's like someone was trying to win contractor BINGO by using every material known to man on every surface. What should be a simple tile wall instead includes stainless steel, granite, and glass, for no apparent reason other than to involve more contractors and spend more money. The ceiling light fixtures are made as custom and elaborate as possible, again using multiple materials. Most other systems would have exposed concrete walls and ceilings with a nice design, or maybe just some tile over that, but no, the MTA needs to add another few layers of stuff on top of everything. 

You don't need a mezzanine; you can build exits that funnel people straight up that have enough capacity. Most places don't use mezzanines and the sky is not falling down.

Realistically speaking, a high capacity station would have one down escalator and stairs at every exit.

[Eric B]

The mezzanine and other apparent design protocols are what further complicate the addition of the 116th St. station to the plan, where it otherwise might have been able to have been squeezed into the existing built tunnel segment (which I believe had provisions for a third spur track in that area).

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, Eric B said:

The mezzanine and other apparent design protocols are what further complicate the addition of the 116th St. station to the plan, where it otherwise might have been able to have been squeezed into the existing built tunnel segment (which I believe had provisions for a third spur track in that area).

You do need some kind of mezzanine at island platforms simply because you cannot have the exit emerge in the middle of the street.

That being said, Sutphin/Archer and Parsons/Archer are good examples of busy stations without full mezzanines.

[N6 Limited]

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

You do need some kind of mezzanine at island platforms simply because you cannot have the exit emerge in the middle of the street.

You never know, they've been adding Vision Zero Medians and trees in the middle of streets all over the place, they could just put some stairs there like 72nd and 96th streets on the IRT.

2 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

That being said, Sutphin/Archer and Parsons/Archer are good examples of busy stations without full mezzanines.

And Lexington Ave/63rd St

[Wallyhorse]

13 hours ago, Eric B said:

The mezzanine and other apparent design protocols are what further complicate the addition of the 116th St. station to the plan, where it otherwise might have been able to have been squeezed into the existing built tunnel segment (which I believe had provisions for a third spur track in that area).

And as said before, I would myself do side platforms at 116 with no mezzanine needed (though you could build a crossunder if need be between the platforms). 

[CenSin]

58 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

And as said before, I would myself do side platforms at 116 with no mezzanine needed (though you could build a crossunder if need be between the platforms). 

With the height of the tunnel, you could do a crossover.

[Wallyhorse]

4 minutes ago, CenSin said:

With the height of the tunnel, you could do a crossover.

I thought the '70s portion was not as deep.

[bobtehpanda]

3 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

I thought the '70s portion was not as deep.

If you can fit a mezzanine you can do a crossover. The only difference is that a full mezzanine is basically an entire second floor, which is a hell of a lot more expensive than a crossover twenty or forty feet wide.