MTA NYC Transit Announces Community Workshops to Help Reshape the Future of Bronx Busing

[Via Garibaldi 8]

29 minutes ago, Union Tpke said:

Any updates about the meetings?

What about them?

[RailRunRob]

Meeting's going on this week I spoke to some people from CB12 the Wakefield meeting my Mom is friends with Andy King on that side of town. Some of the issue I know there's speaking about is Crosstown travel.. GunHill Road being a place of interest with Congestion in Rush Hour. Someone quoted an hour plus at times on the Bx28 from Co-Op to Bainbridge I jokingly stated I can get from Frankin to Woodlawn in almost the same time which is kinda crazy when you think about it. The BX31 Coverage was also something I heard as well. 

[checkmatechamp13]

An interesting thing to note are these quotes:

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/07/05/jarrett-walker-on-redesigning-nycs-bus-network-start-by-wiping-the-slate-clean/

Walker also stressed the importance of a bus network that transcends the boundaries between boroughs. While the waterways dividing the land masses of New York justify separate bus networks to some degree, he also sees artificial distinctions in the current network.

When you wipe the slate clean, he said, “There’s a way to look at Brooklyn and Queens as one thing.”

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2017/07/14/how-transit-agencies-can-stop-worrying-and-love-bus-network-redesigns/

Advocates have called on the MTA to extend the bus network redesign throughout the other four boroughs. Wyss seemed receptive to the idea while cautioning that it will be more complex than the undertaking on Staten Island.

“Certainly we do need to look at all of our service,” she said. “What we would be really looking at is one network at a time, and the networks don’t necessarily line up with the borough boundaries.”

So what I suspect will happen is that Brooklyn & Queens will be last. If I had to take a guess, they'll do The Bronx, Staten Island local, Manhattan, Brooklyn (plus the Q8/24/54/56 that connect Brooklyn to Jamaica), and then finally the rest of Queens. I was told that they want to try to do Staten Island local soon because they collected data back in 2015 and they want to use it before it becomes too outdated. Manhattan the routes are mostly gridded, but I think it may come down to splitting Upper Manhattan service from Midtown & Lower Manhattan service to isolate the congestion/reliability issues better.

[B35 via Church]

5 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

Manhattan the routes are mostly gridded, but I think it may come down to splitting Upper Manhattan service from Midtown & Lower Manhattan service to isolate the congestion/reliability issues better.

Yeah, less M3's & more M10's.... Less M101's & more M100's.... Less M11's & more M12's... More M5/M55-like breakups... etc.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they +Selected+ the M103, washed their hands with the M101, and conjured up some way to break up the M102.... Frequencies along 3rd/Lex to be curtailed adjusted accordingly....

Quote

"When you wipe the slate clean, he said, 'There’s a way to look at Brooklyn and Queens as one thing.' "

I agree with this..... Oh how I can't stand Ridgewood Terminal & Ridgewood itself being a transit hub of sorts.... The B24's structure is hot garbage & the street grid around QB/46-47-48th doesn't help matters....

This is tempting me to want to start dusting off the PSP (paint shop pro) & recommence drawing up bus maps & altering some of my older ideas... I still have those blank maps of all the boroughs too.

16 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Meeting's going on this week I spoke to some people from CB12 the Wakefield meeting my Mom is friends with Andy King on that side of town. Some of the issue I know there's speaking about is Crosstown travel.. GunHill Road being a place of interest with Congestion in Rush Hour. Someone quoted an hour plus at times on the Bx28 from Co-Op to Bainbridge I jokingly stated I can get from Frankin to Woodlawn in almost the same time which is kinda crazy when you think about it. The BX31 Coverage was also something I heard as well. 

Wanna do away with rush hour congestion along Gun Hill rd? You address two things - The congestion that emanates from around the hospital (Montefiore) & good ole exit 9 off the 'parkway.... 

Yeah, from Co-op to the hospital on the Bx28 is around an hour plus, but that's not only due to congestion though.... The route is heavily utilized b/w that stretch & Gun Hill itself is on a bit an incline/slope, west of the parkway.... Although I hate to admit it, they may (and probably will) end up splitting the route south of 205th (D)....

The Bx31 bit via Zerega, all the way down to Castle Hill's been talked about since the day of the flood - if that's the "coverage" that they're referring to....

[Lawrence St]

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Yeah, less M3's & more M10's.... Less M101's & more M100's.... Less M11's & more M12's... More M5/M55-like breakups... etc.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they +Selected+ the M103, washed their hands with the M101, and conjured up some way to break up the M102.... Frequencies along 3rd/Lex to be curtailed adjusted accordingly....

I agree with this..... Oh how I can't stand Ridgewood Terminal & Ridgewood itself being a transit hub of sorts.... The B24's structure is hot garbage & the street grid around QB/46-47-48th doesn't help matters....

This is tempting me to want to start dusting off the PSP (paint shop pro) & recommence drawing up bus maps & altering some of my older ideas... I still have those blank maps of all the boroughs too.

Wanna do away with rush hour congestion along Gun Hill rd? You address two things - The congestion that emanates from around the hospital (Montefiore) & good ole exit 9 off the 'parkway.... 

Yeah, from Co-op to the hospital on the Bx28 is around an hour plus, but that's not only due to congestion though.... The route is heavily utilized b/w that stretch & Gun Hill itself is on a bit an incline/slope, west of the parkway.... Although I hate to admit it, they may (and probably will) end up splitting the route south of 205th (D)....

The Bx31 bit via Zerega, all the way down to Castle Hill's been talked about since the day of the flood - if that's the "coverage" that they're referring to....

I see them splitting the M101 into two routes.

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

I see them splitting the M101 into two routes.

However they end up screwing up 3rd/Lex service remains to be seen.

[Lawrence St]

5 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

However they end up screwing up 3rd/Lex service remains to be seen.

Actually I would split the route as follows:

Portion between 125th St and East Village remains as M101, however service is extended south to Houston St making the same limited stops as before via Park Row.

Portion between 116th St & 193 St becomes the M105 and operates the same routing, however service is extended to end at Paladino Av on 116th St.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

I went to the Co-op City town hall and have a few comments.

- A decent contingent of folks want the pre-2010 service pattern of the Bx26 and Bx28 running through all 5 sections of Co-op City. 

- The meeting was interactive so folks sat with planners in groups and discussed their current commutes, problems with the system and what side of different network trade offs (ridership vs coverage, direct vs indirect routes, more vs fewer stops) they fell on.

- There was a request at my table to have either the BxM7 or BxM10 run trips to Lower Manhattan (a la BxM18 for the NE Bronx)

- There was very little comment about the performance of the Bx12 +Select and what needs to be done there. 

- One lady who lives in Eastchester says she uses the Bx30 to reach the BxM10 every morning and says she would like the BxM10 to makes stops along Boston Road from the depot to Eastchester Road so she can avoid her transfer. 

- A lot of complaints about the current system related to things that can be resolved without redesigning the routes. There were complaints about the interiors of the buses lacking appropriate standing room and the lack of accurate real time information presented to riders at stops. Those two things among others can be done while keeping the map in tact.

- Commuters don't seem to understand that there are network trade-offs that have to be worked out or have the selfish attitude that they should be ignored to preserve THEIR particular commute pattern. Folks I discussed things with wanted a network focused more on frequency than coverage but wanted more stops (so folks don't have to walk out of their section's loop to reach a bus) and also wanted as few transfers as possible. The latter two requests would suggest coverage is far more important than frequency and no one would want the pre-2010 service pattern back if coverage wasn't the dominating concern. 

- I come away thinking that a redesign is a solution in search of a problem. When special requests and current commutes are analyzed the MTA will be left with no choice but to design a network that is almost identical to the one that's there now. In fact one lady at my table said all she wants is for the current routes to be more frequent and reliable.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 minutes ago, JubaionBx12+SBS said:

I went to the Co-op City town hall and have a few comments.

- A decent contingent of folks want the pre-2010 service pattern of the Bx26 and Bx28 running through all 5 sections of Co-op City. 

- The meeting was interactive so folks sat with planners in groups and discussed their current commutes, problems with the system and what side of different network trade offs (ridership vs coverage, direct vs indirect routes, more vs fewer stops) they fell on.

- There was a request at my table to have either the BxM7 or BxM10 run trips to Lower Manhattan (a la BxM18 for the NE Bronx)

- There was very little comment about the performance of the Bx12 +Select and what needs to be done there. 

- One lady who lives in Eastchester says she uses the Bx30 to reach the BxM10 every morning and says she would like the BxM10 to makes stops along Boston Road from the depot to Eastchester Road so she can avoid her transfer. 

- A lot of complaints about the current system related to things that can be resolved without redesigning the routes. There were complaints about the interiors of the buses lacking appropriate standing room and the lack of accurate real time information presented to riders at stops. Those two things among others can be done while keeping the map in tact.

- Commuters don't seem to understand that there are network trade-offs that have to be worked out or have the selfish attitude that they should be ignored to preserve THEIR particular commute pattern. Folks I discussed things with wanted a network focused more on frequency than coverage but wanted more stops (so folks don't have to walk out of their section's loop to reach a bus) and also wanted as few transfers as possible. The latter two requests would suggest coverage is far more important than frequency and no one would want the pre-2010 service pattern back if coverage wasn't the dominating concern. 

- I come away thinking that a redesign is a solution in search of a problem. When special requests and current commutes are analyzed the MTA will be left with no choice but to design a network that is almost identical to the one that's there now. In fact one lady at my table said all she wants is for the current routes to be more frequent and reliable.

A lot of the Bronx routes really aren't bad. There is nothing wrong with the BxM7 aside from the trips being delayed. Folks wanting Downtown service. That will be an interesting one... The BxM10 should run further north, as it ends in the middle of nowhere so to speak.

 

[Future ENY OP]

36 minutes ago, JubaionBx12+SBS said:

I went to the Co-op City town hall and have a few comments.

- There was a request at my table to have either the BxM7 or BxM10 run trips to Lower Manhattan (a la BxM18 for the NE Bronx)

Lower Manhattan: BxM7 and or BxM10 stop???  Don't get me wrong. This is a good idea.

However, 2 things.

A) Is there enough ridership in Northeast Bronx to warrant Downtown Manhattan Service

B) What possible terminals are available for either the BxM7 or BxM10? 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Lower Manhattan: BxM7 and or BxM10 stop???  Don't get me wrong. This is a good idea.

However, 2 things.

A) Is there enough ridership in Northeast Bronx to warrant Downtown Manhattan Service

B) What possible terminals are available for either the BxM7 or BxM10? 

They need to be careful what they wish for. One problem with the BxM18 is it gets stuck because those buses do other trips beforehand, so a lot of the trips start late. I too wonder if the demographics support a Downtown Wall Street bus. Everyone asks why Riverdale has a Wall Street bus? Because financial types work down there and enough of them to sustain the route and even then headways are every 30 minutes at night so I really wonder if they could sustain such a route, though there are A LOT of riders that get on at 23rd Street. It isn't clear where they come from though.

 

[MysteriousBtrain]

9 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They need to be careful what they wish for. One problem with the BxM18 is it gets stuck because those buses do other trips beforehand, so a lot of the trips start late. I too wonder if the demographics support a Downtown Wall Street bus. Everyone asks why Riverdale has a Wall Street bus? Because financial types work down there and enough of them to sustain the route and even then headways are every 30 minutes at night so I really wonder if they could sustain such a route, though there are A LOT of riders that get on at 23rd Street. It isn't clear where they come from though.

 

I would say separate Midtown service from downtown service, but not really sure how that'll work out. At least with Eastern Bronx service, buses can "attempt" to use the BQE until the Midtown tunnel or Williamsburg bridge. But in reality I don't see anything like that happening since these highways love to get packed. That's sort of how the X61 failed early on.

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, JubaionBx12+SBS said:

I went to the Co-op City town hall and have a few comments.

- A decent contingent of folks want the pre-2010 service pattern of the Bx26 and Bx28 running through all 5 sections of Co-op City. 

- The meeting was interactive so folks sat with planners in groups and discussed their current commutes, problems with the system and what side of different network trade offs (ridership vs coverage, direct vs indirect routes, more vs fewer stops) they fell on.

- There was a request at my table to have either the BxM7 or BxM10 run trips to Lower Manhattan (a la BxM18 for the NE Bronx)

- There was very little comment about the performance of the Bx12 +Select and what needs to be done there. 

- One lady who lives in Eastchester says she uses the Bx30 to reach the BxM10 every morning and says she would like the BxM10 to makes stops along Boston Road from the depot to Eastchester Road so she can avoid her transfer. 

- A lot of complaints about the current system related to things that can be resolved without redesigning the routes. There were complaints about the interiors of the buses lacking appropriate standing room and the lack of accurate real time information presented to riders at stops. Those two things among others can be done while keeping the map in tact.

- Commuters don't seem to understand that there are network trade-offs that have to be worked out or have the selfish attitude that they should be ignored to preserve THEIR particular commute pattern. Folks I discussed things with wanted a network focused more on frequency than coverage but wanted more stops (so folks don't have to walk out of their section's loop to reach a bus) and also wanted as few transfers as possible. The latter two requests would suggest coverage is far more important than frequency and no one would want the pre-2010 service pattern back if coverage wasn't the dominating concern. 

- I come away thinking that a redesign is a solution in search of a problem. When special requests and current commutes are analyzed the MTA will be left with no choice but to design a network that is almost identical to the one that's there now. In fact one lady at my table said all she wants is for the current routes to be more frequent and reliable.

I went tonight as well in Co-Op. super interesting!!   BMX7 to Wall was talked about as well at my Table.. The parallel to the BMX18 was made. People also asked for an extra bus at 2am late night from Manhattan. The frequency of service in Section 1 and 2 came up people wanted the BX26, 28 returned to the area others were okay with Increased BX23 headways as coverage.  24/7 Bx23 bus service for late night service from the  came up. I agree people didn't understand The exercises and the tradeoff's I don't think the facilitator/s did a great job breaking it down. I had an older lady I had to use analogies for several times when it came to coverage I had to Explain to her that depots only have room for a certain amount of buses so she'd have to choose how she'd like to spread it out but that number is the number. She got it after that. And asked the guy from bus planning Why he just didn't say that lol! It was a good turnout overall. .Quite a bit of interbrough trips to Queens as well.

[checkmatechamp13]

1 hour ago, JubaionBx12+SBS said:

I went to the Co-op City town hall and have a few comments.

- A decent contingent of folks want the pre-2010 service pattern of the Bx26 and Bx28 running through all 5 sections of Co-op City. 

- The meeting was interactive so folks sat with planners in groups and discussed their current commutes, problems with the system and what side of different network trade offs (ridership vs coverage, direct vs indirect routes, more vs fewer stops) they fell on.

- Commuters don't seem to understand that there are network trade-offs that have to be worked out or have the selfish attitude that they should be ignored to preserve THEIR particular commute pattern. Folks I discussed things with wanted a network focused more on frequency than coverage but wanted more stops (so folks don't have to walk out of their section's loop to reach a bus) and also wanted as few transfers as possible. The latter two requests would suggest coverage is far more important than frequency and no one would want the pre-2010 service pattern back if coverage wasn't the dominating concern. 

That's good that they're putting it as a tradeoff (transfer-based network vs. direct network, frequency vs. coverage, etc). They didn't do that when they studied the SI network, so hopefully this change in their planning process will be good.

And yeah, I don't get why so many people want all the buses to make all of the loops. The Bx28/38 split provides coverage to all riders seeking Gun Hill Road, and the Bx26 is much more direct for Section 5 riders. For intra Co-Op City trips that's what the Bx23 is for.

[RailRunRob]

5 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

And yeah, I don't get why so many people want all the buses to make all of the loops. The Bx28/38 split provides coverage to all riders seeking Gun Hill Road, and the Bx26 is much more direct for Section 5 riders. For intra Co-Op City trips that's what the Bx23 is for.

Quite abit of older folks on that side of town.. They see the way it was as better. Im going to post what the Riverbay Board prepared for the MTA shortly. The top 4 bus demands.. I had to ask for clarification several times.

[RailRunRob]

 

Here's what's the board wanted the MTA to look at.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

7 hours ago, JubaionBx12+SBS said:

- A decent contingent of folks want the pre-2010 service pattern of the Bx26 and Bx28 running through all 5 sections of Co-op City. 

Why is it so important to require Section 5 riders heading westward to take the grand tour?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

 

Here's what's the board wanted the MTA to look at.

Wait a minute... They want the express bus to run to Battery Park City?? And terminate where?? 

[RailRunRob]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Wait a minute... They want the express bus to run to Battery Park City?? And terminate where?? 

 Yup,  When I probed about where or routing I couldn’t get a direct answer.  Honestly felt like they didn’t think that far ahead  which is kind of crazy because he had meetings the weeks before. To be honest the riders I worked with at my table had better ideas 3 of them were 7 riders and worked in the Wall Street area. They stressed Wall Street service even if just at peak rush. That’s when the 18 came up in conversation via Church/6th.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, RailRunRob said:

 Yup,  When I probed about where or routing I couldn’t get a direct answer.  Honestly felt like they didn’t think that far ahead  which is kind of crazy because he had meetings the weeks before. To be honest the riders I worked with at my table had better ideas 3 of them were 7 riders and worked in the Wall Street area. They stressed Wall Street service even if just at peak rush. That’s when the 18 came up in conversation via Church/6th.

That would make sense. They obviously don’t want to transfer to the BxM18. The  has been VERY resistant to adding Downtown service. I have been trying to get the BxM18 to run later for years in the morning. I even got Senator Klein to write a letter stating how the service would improve the commutes of so many people. 

[B35 via Church]

29 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Wait a minute... They want the express bus to run to Battery Park City?? And terminate where?? 

Nah, not BPC (the actual neighborhood)... They want service to the Financial District & it's a concern/request/suggestion that's been floating around for ages now.

Battery Park (or "The Battery") is an old school reference to that general area down by the Ferry.....

49 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Why is it so important to require Section 5 riders heading westward to take the grand tour?

Communal pride.

7 hours ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

....I don't get why so many people want all the buses to make all of the loops. The Bx28/38 split provides coverage to all riders seeking Gun Hill Road, and the Bx26 is much more direct for Section 5 riders. For intra Co-Op City trips that's what the Bx23 is for.

7 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Quite a bit of older folks on that side of town.. They see the way it was as better.

I agree with them when it comes to the Bx26/28... I disagree when it comes to the old QBx1.

To expound on RailRunRob stated, they want the old pattern back because it was (for lack of a better word), simpler....

This is another aspect of redesigning a bus network that I believe the MTA's going to have to be careful with (assuming nothing nefarious & actually acting in good faith).... Yeah, we can say that riders'll end up adapting - However, with ridership losses having been apparent for quite some time now (this decade), you'll end up only expediting/exacerbating that trend, just on the strength of rider confusion alone...

IMO, The Bronx is the borough that would benefit the least from a(nother) local bus network shakeup anyway...

 

 

 

[B35 via Church]

9 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

 Yup,  When I probed about where or routing I couldn’t get a direct answer. Honestly felt like they didn’t think that far ahead  which is kind of crazy because he had meetings the weeks before. To be honest the riders I worked with at my table had better ideas 3 of them were 7 riders and worked in the Wall Street area. They stressed Wall Street service even if just at peak rush. That’s when the 18 came up in conversation via Church/6th.

Lol - Don't hold your breath for that one.

I'm guilty of it myself - Us transit enthusiasts on here are much more focused on actual routings (how buses should serve an area/community) than your average commuter - and especially some absent-minded white collar suit that's never stepped on a NYC bus a day in their lives.....

"I don't care how it gets thehh, JUST GET ME THEHH (there)"
 - old miserable coot on a (detoured) QM2 I was on some years back.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

36 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Nah, not BPC (the actual neighborhood)... They want service to the Financial District & it's a concern/request/suggestion that's been floating around for ages now.

Battery Park (or "The Battery") is an old school reference to that general area down by the Ferry.....

Communal pride.

I agree with them when it comes to the Bx26/28... I disagree when it comes to the old QBx1.

To expound on RailRunRob stated, they want the old pattern back because it was (for lack of a better word), simpler....

This is another aspect of redesigning a bus network that I believe the MTA's going to have to be careful with (assuming nothing nefarious & actually acting in good faith).... Yeah, we can say that riders'll end up adapting - However, with ridership losses having been apparent for quite some time now (this decade), you'll end up only expediting/exacerbating that trend, just on the strength of rider confusion alone...

IMO, The Bronx is the borough that would benefit the least from a(nother) local bus network shakeup anyway...

 

 

 

I see... And how realistic would ridership be on a Downtown route from there?

[RailRunRob]

15 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Lol - Don't hold your breath for that one.

I'm guilty of it myself - Us transit enthusiasts on here are much more focused on actual routings (how buses should serve an area/community) than your average commuter - and especially some absent-minded white collar suit that's never stepped on a NYC bus a day in their lives.....

"I don't care how it gets thehh, JUST GET ME THEHH (there)"
 - old miserable coot on a (detoured) QM2 I was on some years back.

 I totally agree. Not holding it against them at all. Honestly one of the reasons  I decided to stop by is my mom is friends with a few people on the CB and City Council that way. Yep   After asking a few questions a month or two back they felt a good idea for me to stop by.  So this was kind of the in to say see you guys need a consultant or at least  someone to ask the right questions. (Points to himself) Lol.

[RailRunRob]

2 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I see... And how realistic would ridership be on a Downtown route from there?

 I think it would be a very decent ridership. What was the population stat? 47k people in Co-Op City I heard that stat last night. The 7 is the most heavily used express route in the Bronx correct?