Express Bus Advocacy Group

[Via Garibaldi 8]

19 minutes ago, SevenEleven said:

There’s 57 seats, the same as any other express bus. 

Yeah, another driver confirmed as well, but everyone is complaining about the lack of the leg room, so I'm waiting to hear back on what the story is. It's worse than the older Prevosts that's for sure. I've only rode one once, so I didn't check it then.

[QM1to6Ave]

47 minutes ago, SevenEleven said:

There’s 57 seats, the same as any other express bus. 

Yeah, I don't understand why the new Prevosts seem so much tighter than the MCIs with the same number of seats, and what I assume are basically the same dimensions. Are the new seats shorter/lower to the floor? That was my only thought of why my legs are getting squeezed more. I try to go for the wheelchair area seats, since those tend to have a little more room based on where the seats were locked into place

[Via Garibaldi 8]

4 minutes ago, QM1to6Ave said:

Yeah, I don't understand why the new Prevosts seem so much tighter than the MCIs with the same number of seats, and what I assume are basically the same dimensions. Are the new seats shorter/lower to the floor? That was my only thought of why my legs are getting squeezed more. I try to go for the wheelchair area seats, since those tend to have a little more room based on where the seats were locked into place

Everyone was thinking that the lack of leg room was due to more seats being crammed in, but if there are 57 seats, then it's quite baffling. All I know is I could barely squeeze in the row that I sat in and everyone that has tried these new express buses says the exact some thing, even really short people.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[GojiMet86]

A bus can have the same number of seats but the height, the thickness, and the angle of the seat could all be different. I can't find any dimensions/measurements for the seats and distance between them at the moment.

Edited October 27, 2021 by GojiMet86

[SevenEleven]

7 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Everyone was thinking that the lack of leg room was due to more seats being crammed in, but if there are 57 seats, then it's quite baffling. All I know is I could barely squeeze in the row that I sat in and everyone that has tried these new express buses says the exact some thing, even really short people.

Best seat on those buses are the single seaters. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, SevenEleven said:

Best seat on those buses are the single seaters. 

What single seaters?

[SevenEleven]

24 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

What single seaters?

The drivers seat 😅

[Via Garibaldi 8]

8 minutes ago, SevenEleven said:

The drivers seat 😅

Funny you mention that. I asked some drivers in the group if they noticed less leg room in their area. Quite a few of them try to avoid the new buses. lol

[IAlam]

Ok I know I haven't been saying much on the forums lately, but I've been waiting to say something about this for a while now. I've had so many issues with those new seats so I started to look into them. Apparently the MTA switched the model of seats they use compared to the previous order. I seems like the seats that they are using can between 17 and 19 inches off the ground. Now I'm not going to be the one to measure but I'm pretty sure the Prevost are closer to the 17in side while the MCI are closer to 19in. But the newer model of the seats also appear to have a slightly lower back than the previous model. Oddly I believe I found the model of seat the new SI Prevost use and it set to 18 inches also has a more curved edge on the bottom rather than the sharp blocky right angle used on the seats of the MTAB Prevost. I think that curved bottom adds a noticeable difference in leg room. 

Old Seats Model 2005: (MCI/2nd Gen Prevost's)
https://www.americanseating.com/product/model-2005 

New Seats Model 2095/2096: (MTAB Prevost's)
https://www.americanseating.com/product/model-2096
The only difference between 2095 and 2096 is that 2096 has seatbelts.

Spec sheet:
https://www.americanseating.com/files/2000_Series_Recliner_Rev._2019_.pdf 
Go to page 4 of the PDF for the side by side comparisons

New Seats Sigma: (NYCT Prevost's)
https://www.freedmanseating.com/seats/gt/

Edited October 28, 2021 by IAlam

[7-express]

6 hours ago, GojiMet86 said:

A bus can have the same number of seats but the height, the thickness, and the angle of the seat could all be different. I can't find any dimensions/measurements for the seats and distance between them at the moment.

Another possibility is that the mechanical section at the back of the bus got a bit wider so it took up some space from the passenger compartment, leading to reduced leg room.  I haven't had a chance to ride the new Prevosts yet.

[QM1to6Ave]

1 hour ago, IAlam said:

Ok I know I haven't been saying much on the forums lately, but I've been waiting to say something about this for a while now. I've had so many issues with those new seats so I started to look into them. Apparently the MTA switched the model of seats they use compared to the previous order. I seems like the seats that they are using can between 17 and 19 inches off the ground. Now I'm not going to be the one to measure but I'm pretty sure the Prevost are closer to the 17in side while the MCI are closer to 19in. But the newer model of the seats also appear to have a slightly lower back than the previous model. Oddly I believe I found the model of seat the new SI Prevost use and it set to 18 inches also has a more curved edge on the bottom rather than the sharp blocky right angle used on the seats of the MTAB Prevost. I think that curved bottom adds a noticeable difference in leg room. 

Old Seats Model 2005: (MCI/2nd Gen Prevost's)
https://www.americanseating.com/product/model-2005 

New Seats Model 2095/2096: (MTAB Prevost's)
https://www.americanseating.com/product/model-2096
The only difference between 2095 and 2096 is that 2096 has seatbelts.

Spec sheet:
https://www.americanseating.com/files/2000_Series_Recliner_Rev._2019_.pdf 
Go to page 4 of the PDF for the side by side comparisons

New Seats Sigma: (NYCT Prevost's)
https://www.freedmanseating.com/seats/gt/

Nice finds! I was thinking the same thing tonight while riding a Prevost after reading this discussion. I think the curvature is a big part of it, it is definitely more pronounced than on the MCIs now that I look carefully at it

[Bill from Maspeth]

On 10/26/2021 at 7:50 PM, Future ENY OP said:

Yikes... No wonder today was not a good day for the BQE and the Battery.

I agree with @Via Garibaldi 8 with the non-enforcement of the HOV lane.. State Police has been hanging around Staten Island as of late. However, from observations as of late Highway 2, TBTA and State police have been slipping off on their job on the Brooklyn side of the HOV lane.

Let's be honest here: if an off duty cop, off duty judge, off duty corrections officer or anybody else in law enforcement who is not at the time working in the regular performance of their duties  is caught in the HOV lane, do you fellas think think they'll get a summons?  

[Future ENY OP]

2 minutes ago, Bill from Maspeth said:

Let's be honest here: if an off duty cop, off duty judge, off duty corrections officer or anybody else in law enforcement who is not at the time working in the regular performance of their duties  is caught in the HOV lane, do you fellas think think they'll get a summons?  

Oh, absolutely not.. Simple they are a member of service.  However, you have state police here in the city feel they own the streets and will not let NYPD or NYCD off the hook.. It depends on the tropper.  Most of the NYSP troppers that come into the city originate from Middletown/Poughkesspie/Albany barracks and patrol the thruway so easy access into the city. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Happy to announce that we have successfully stopped the Bronx Express Bus Redesign Proposal at this time.  The  may propose revisions later on down the line after the other redesigns are done, but that would be years from now, and with their financial situation, they may just decide not to do anything at all.  With that said, they are however proceeding with the Brooklyn and Queens express bus redesigns, and we must be vigilant of any proposed cuts to express bus service in those boroughs. Given their proposals to dramatically cut off-peak express bus service, we will be laser focused on protecting that service and will have updates on both proposals as we have more info.  Thanks to all Bronxites who spoke loud and clear about how important express bus service is across the borough.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[IAlam]

19 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Happy to announce that we have successfully stopped the Bronx Express Bus Redesign Proposal at this time.  The  may propose revisions later on down the line after the other redesigns are done, but that would be years from now, and with their financial situation, they may just decide not to do anything at all.  With that said, they are however proceeding with the Brooklyn and Queens express bus redesigns, and we must be vigilant of any proposed cuts to express bus service in those boroughs. Given their proposals to dramatically cut off-peak express bus service, we will be laser focused on protecting that service and will have updates on both proposals as we have more info.  Thanks to all Bronxites who spoke loud and clear about how important express bus service is across the borough.

Their service cuts for Queens was never really subtle in the first place. But keep me in the loop for that, they we're way more aggressive with Queens than the Bronx.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, IAlam said:

Their service cuts for Queens was never really subtle in the first place. But keep me in the loop for that, they we're way more aggressive with Queens than the Bronx.

There are a few issues at play.  Queens has many more express bus lines than the Bronx does, so there is a lot more there that they want to cut. It is clear from the original proposal that this is really about them cutting service, not making bus service better for Queens, esp. areas without any subway service.

[MysteriousBtrain]

56 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Happy to announce that we have successfully stopped the Bronx Express Bus Redesign Proposal at this time.  The  may propose revisions later on down the line after the other redesigns are done, but that would be years from now, and with their financial situation, they may just decide not to do anything at all.  With that said, they are however proceeding with the Brooklyn and Queens express bus redesigns, and we must be vigilant of any proposed cuts to express bus service in those boroughs. Given their proposals to dramatically cut off-peak express bus service, we will be laser focused on protecting that service and will have updates on both proposals as we have more info.  Thanks to all Bronxites who spoke loud and clear about how important express bus service is across the borough.

To my understanding as part of these changes that means the BxM5 plan is also out the window. I know you said the plan was postponed but to your knowledge did the MTA representatives say anything about "additional bus routes" still possibly being added or just a modification of certain routes in the near future?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

24 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

To my understanding as part of these changes that means the BxM5 plan is also out the window. I know you said the plan was postponed but to your knowledge did the MTA representatives say anything about "additional bus routes" still possibly being added or just a modification of certain routes in the near future?

None of the new routes will be taking place, so no BxM5.  I spoke with Mark Holmes and Sarah Wyss in person (they are the two senior planners - Holmes for MTA Bus and Wyss for NYCT) about all of the Bronx Express Bus Proposals back in 2019. They had an actual book with them with all of the proposed changes for me to look at. I told them all of the objections riders had.  Holmes didn't believe me, but he soon found out. Not only did he attend the Emergency Town Hall Meeting in Riverdale where angry people packed the room, but there were petitions circulated for lines like the BxM4. The original plan was to have no express bus down Grand Concourse.  The came up with that nonsense BxM4 route to Tracey Towers as a compromise because of the petition and all of the angry calls people put into elected officials, so that is not flying either, so all of the lines will remain as is, with the same frequencies and everything.  Basically no changes until who knows when.  If they come out with a revised plan, there would be more meetings to gather more feedback, etc. and then the Board will have to vote any changes in, so as it stands, the only votes the Board is providing is for the Bronx local bus proposal.

They should just give up already.  For example, one huge huge opposition is removing the BxM2 from Mount Sinai and also from serving the museums along 5th and the Central Park West & West 81st St stop. Holmes noted that they wanted to get people down to Midtown quicker, hence the original BxM2 proposal, but even if they had the BxM1 serve Mount Sinai, they still don't have an answer for the other stops the BxM2 currently serves. Not only that, but they'd have to add extra BxM1 service to accommodate the BxM2 Mount Sinai folks, so they would probably be spending more money with such changes in some cases.

There are other objections as well. The BxM11... They want it removed from under White Plains Road because of the pillars. BxM11 riders vehemently oppose that change and the overall route and want it on WPR because of the connections it provides, as Bronxwood can be quite desolate and involves a hilly area to reach it. The revised BxM11 also cuts off riders that are furthest away from the subway and all of the ridership along the City border.  I just don't see any plan that is going to address all of the concerns of riders, not to mention the proposed cuts they originally had to the spans.  All of that was rejected, not only by the riders, but elected officials, including any removal of bus stops.  The BxM9 is a perfect example of that. Riders don't want any stops removed, as they are all large stops in Throggs Neck.

What they may do is come back with a revised plan a few years down the road after some of the other redesigns are finalized, but that is not a definite,  so for now it's postponed until whenever. Hopefully indefinitely. The Board will vote on the Bronx local bus plan though I believe next month or sometime soon for implementation Summer of 2022 or thereabouts.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[paulrivera]

I wouldn’t have minded much of the redesigned Bronx express routes if they had kept the service levels the same.

The BxM5 only serving Woodlawn woulda been cool in tandem with a BxM4 running from Bedford Park during rush hours, but they wanted to be greedy and cut off-hours service on the BxM4.

The BxM17 between Co-op and Wall Street during rush hours woulda been cool too, but again they got greedy and wanted to get rid of reverse peak service on the BxM7.

Same with the BxM1 and 2. Yea, the west side would have had faster service, but then service to 98th Street and the Museum Mile would have been subpar at best, and reverse peak service was supposed to be cut here too.

The BxM6/10C was lazy, the BxM18 proposal was whatever (Hudson Yards isn’t all that yet), and the BxM3 being cut on Sundays straight up sucked. That BxM11 rerouting looked like it was gonna suppress ridership long term too.

All things considered tho, I’m glad things are gonna be kept the same on the Bronx express bus side long term.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I like to have sources, so here you are:

Quote

Proposed changes to the express bus system are still postponed, pending evaluation of ridership figures. They are, therefore, not part of the current redesign plan that will be implemented in June 2022.

This is also correct. In my most recent discussions with the  about this over the summer by phone, they stated then that with the pandemic, they didn't want to make any moves. They wanted to re-evaluate everything and listen to their riders. Time will tell...

https://www.norwoodnews.org/final-bronx-bus-redesign-plan-may-involve-the-removal-of-18-percent-of-bronx-bus-stops/

Some other news... I believe I posted about the lack of legroom on the new express buses. I am awaiting a response regarding this, but the heads at the  are aware of the complaints.

5 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

I wouldn’t have minded much of the redesigned Bronx express routes if they had kept the service levels the same.

The BxM5 only serving Woodlawn woulda been cool in tandem with a BxM4 running from Bedford Park during rush hours, but they wanted to be greedy and cut off-hours service on the BxM4.

The BxM17 between Co-op and Wall Street during rush hours woulda been cool too, but again they got greedy and wanted to get rid of reverse peak service on the BxM7.

Same with the BxM1 and 2. Yea, the west side would have had faster service, but then service to 98th Street and the Museum Mile would have been subpar at best, and reverse peak service was supposed to be cut here too.

The BxM6/10C was lazy, the BxM18 proposal was whatever (Hudson Yards isn’t all that yet), and the BxM3 being cut on Sundays straight up sucked. That BxM11 rerouting looked like it was gonna suppress ridership long term too.

All things considered tho, I’m glad things are gonna be kept the same on the Bronx express bus side long term.

None of these changes were well thought out. I was also surprised by how many BxM18 riders came out in opposition of losing their stop by 27th and 5th, not to mention the transfer for other riders. Even at last night's virtual meeting, people were speaking out against the express bus proposals, even though they were not part of the final plan. I found that funny as hell.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[paulrivera]

2 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I like to have sources, so here you are:

This is also correct. In my most recent discussions with the  about this over the summer by phone, they stated then that with the pandemic, they didn't want to make any moves. They wanted to re-evaluate everything and listen to their riders. Time will tell...

https://www.norwoodnews.org/final-bronx-bus-redesign-plan-may-involve-the-removal-of-18-percent-of-bronx-bus-stops/

Some other news... I believe I posted about the lack of legroom on the new express buses. I am awaiting a response regarding this, but the heads at the  are aware of the complaints.

None of these changes were well thought out. I was also surprised by how many BxM18 riders came out in opposition of losing their stop by 27th and 5th, not to mention the transfer for other riders. Even at last night's virtual meeting, people were speaking out against the express bus proposals, even though they were not part of the final plan. I found that funny as hell.

If they would have had that BxM17 make the old BxM18 stops it would have been a happy compromise. But they just had to route the BxM17 through Queens and then go straight downtown, so it pissed off not only the people who transferred on and off the BxM18 between Midtown and Downtown, but then they go and piss off the Co-op City riders for the circuitous Queens routing and trying to cut the BxM7's service span too.

Although even if Co-op City and downtown-bound riders ended up pleased, a Riverdale rider looking for 5th Avenue in Midtown still woulda been pissed, so yea, not going forward is probably the best and safest move they could have made at this point.

And once you lose the trust of the average rider (never mind the advocacy groups), they're going to resist every attempt at change, whether it's good or not.

Edited November 10, 2021 by paulrivera

[Via Garibaldi 8]

7 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

If they would have had that BxM17 make the old BxM18 stops it would have been a happy compromise. But they just had to route the BxM17 through Queens and then go straight downtown, so it pissed off not only the people who transferred on and off the BxM18 between Midtown and Downtown, but then they go and piss off the Co-op City riders for the circuitous Queens routing and trying to cut the BxM7's service span too.

Although even if Co-op City and downtown-bound riders ended up pleased, a Riverdale rider looking for 5th Avenue in Midtown still woulda been pissed, so yea, not going forward is probably the best and safest move they could have made at this point.

And once you lose the trust of the average rider (never mind the advocacy groups), they're going to resist every attempt at change, whether it's good or not.

Looking at the proposed changes, very few of them were good ones, even the supposed more direct changes like the BxM2. It sounds great to have the pick-up end at W 72nd St, but they had no plan to address congestion issues on the West Side Highway, nor did they have DOT approval for it. That proposal was contingent on DOT approval and I found it nuts that they hadn't even consulted the DOT about it, let alone discussed any sort of HOV lane.  I've been stuck a number of times by car on the West Side Highway, so I know it gets slammed even worse than the Deegan at times.

The BxM18 proposal didn't make sense either, since a chunk of the ridership actually comes from Midtown.  That's what helps carry the route. There is Downtown ridership, but not enough of it for the route to survive on its own, and just having one stop at Hudson Yards... Not enough of a base there for that, even if Inwood was included. Dumb plan with no data to support such changes.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[paulrivera]

15 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It sounds great to have the pick-up end at W 72nd St, but they had no plan to address congestion issues on the West Side Highway, nor did they have DOT approval for it. That proposal was contingent on DOT approval and I found it nuts that they hadn't even consulted the DOT about it, let alone discussed any sort of HOV lane.  I've been stuck a number of times by car on the West Side Highway, so I know it gets slammed even worse than the Deegan at times.

lol... typical half-baked MTA planning....

The Bruckner's no picnic either. I was on a BxM10 today and the highway was already getting slammed at 1 in the freaking afternoon. If the traffic's jamming up at 1pm, imagine at 4 and 5 o'clock... I was on a BxM1 a few weeks ago at 2 in the afternoon and the HRD was slammed at that early hour too.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 minutes ago, paulrivera said:

lol... typical half-baked MTA planning....

The Bruckner's no picnic either. I was on a BxM10 today and the highway was already getting slammed at 1 in the freaking afternoon. If the traffic's jamming up at 1pm, imagine at 4 and 5 o'clock... I was on a BxM1 a few weeks ago at 2 in the afternoon and the HRD was slammed at that early hour too.

The Bruckner situation is because of the construction project. I've spoken with the  about it, as the delays have been extensive. They've looked at alternative routings, but they wouldn't save any time, so haven't been able to come up with anything, since that work has to be done and will continue for at least a few more years. The HRD situation is tied to the back-up from the GWB. Since it's one of the few truck routes in that area, that's another problem that will only worsen. Usually traffic moves once you get past that point.

Admittingly, I've been at odds with the drivers at Yonkers Depot about the schedules. Some of them have been pushing for more time and I'm totally opposed to it. The commute times were already extended shortly after Vision Zero circa 2015, and making them even longer could hurt ridership. There are already people complaining about how long some trips are. I have talked with them about the importance of leaving the terminal on-time when the buses are at the terminal. Over the last few weeks, there have been improvements in that area. That is a must before any requests for changes to the run times.  The  has said they'll review the schedules again in Spring as I have been calling for run times to be cut on some lines like the BxM2 Northbound. Some trips have a ton of time to kill and in my mind, if a bus has to sit at the terminal and start 10-15 minutes late, then there's too much time.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Via Garibaldi 8

[QM1to6Ave]

@Via Garibaldi 8 I'm glad we have the precedent now of stopping the cuts, we will have to do the same for Queens. Ridership at all hours on the lines I take is way up, especially mid-week...I get the impression that a lot of people now have hybrid work situations and tend to go in person on Weds and Thurs, because the buses (and traffic) are notably more crowded every Weds and Thurs compared to when I take the same runs on other weekdays.

Even weekends and off-peak, I've been shocked at how many people are on the buses