1981-1986 GMC RTSes Facts

[RSMG106]

Hello everybody. So, when I was a little tike, I used to ride on the GMC Rtses in Manhattan. They were pretty good at the time, but was retired a few years later from 2002-2007. I need to ask on these buses. Can anyone fill in on all of the facts for these buses, including powertrain, appearance, etc.?

[Orion6025]

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Metropolitan_Transportation_Authority_retired_bus_fleet

Only the most basic information, but some of what you're looking for is on the tables here.

[RSMG106]

Almost all of them don't any available information, except for the fleet numbers and some rebuilt information.

[RSMG106]

But thanks for that.

[Orion6025]

There is also the wikipedia page with some more info (moreso details and their disposition, what they replaced, etc.) than just numbers and the powertrain/transmission, but I assume you already looked through that?

FWIW though it's only wikipedia so the information may not be 100% accurate. Sorry I can't help -that- much i don't have anything anecdotal to say about them. I think TTMG used to have a retired or all-time bus fleet roster on their wiki but I can't seem to find it, nor do I know if it has the info you're looking for.

[RSMG106]

That's okay. I wish the TTMG wiki returns the all time retired fleet section.

[4 via Mosholu]

1 hour ago, RSMG106 said:

Hello everybody. So, when I was a little tike, I used to ride on the GMC Rtses in Manhattan. They were pretty good at the time, but was retired a few years later from 2002-2007. I need to ask on these buses. Can anyone fill in on all of the facts for these buses, including powertrain, appearance, etc.?

• They became the first to feature depot stickers. Some of the buses (like in the picture you provided) were joint funded by the Port Authority. They initially had the Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority blue and white scheme, although there was also a variant for the New York City Transit Authority, yet with the same New York City M Surface sign.
• They became the first buses to feature Alcoa rims, which would be used on later orders including the 1993 Bus Industries of America Orion V and the original 1996-1997 New Flyer Industries D60 Articulated buses.
• The 1000 series were meant for the Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and Manhattan's 126th Street Depot that operated under the New York City Transit Authority; while the 2000 series were meant for the rest of Manhattan and all of the Bronx that operated under the Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority.
• During rebuilds, the 1000 series were renumbered into the 7000 series and the 2000 series were renumbered into the 7500 series. The 1000 series were rebuilt in house, while the 2000 series were rebuilt by Midwest Buses.

[RSMG106]

19 minutes ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

• They became the first to feature depot stickers. Some of the buses (like in the picture you provided) were joint funded by the Port Authority. They initially had the Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority blue and white scheme, although there was also a variant for the New York City Transit Authority, yet with the same New York City M Surface sign.
• They became the first buses to feature Alcoa rims, which would be used on later orders including the 1993 Bus Industries of America Orion V and the original 1996-1997 New Flyer Industries D60 Articulated buses.
• The 1000 series were meant for the Brooklyn, Queens, Staten Island and Manhattan's 126th Street Depot that operated under the New York City Transit Authority; while the 2000 series were meant for the rest of Manhattan and all of the Bronx that operated under the Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority.
• During rebuilds, the 1000 series were renumbered into the 7000 series and the 2000 series were renumbered into the 7500 series. The 1000 series were rebuilt in house, while the 2000 series were rebuilt by Midwest Buses.

Interesting. Others that I found includes the following:

* 1298-1317, PA1734-PA1858, 3800-3899, 3916, 3964-3968, 4167-4169, 4194, 4497, 4742, and 4873-4888 had suburban style seating for express service.

* 1237 was retrofitted with a rooftop AC unit.

* Several 1981 T8W204s were transferred to Long Island Bus before retirement in the late 1990's.

* 1291 and PA2504 we're converted to MetroCard sales buses, but were retired later on.

* Many 1983 T8W204s were repowered with the Detroit Diesel 6V92TA engine.

* 3160 was repowered with the Detroit Diesel Series 50 engine as a test in 1993.

* 1717, 1721, and 1743 were repowered with the Detroit Diesel 6V71N engine.

*3496 was renumbered to 4211.

* 4149 was converted by the East New York CMF, to a command center bus, but renumbered to 0090 in 2007 due to the Orion VII Hybrid order taking that number. 

And lastly,

* 4396 was converted by the East New York CMF, to a Mobile Training Center unit, nicknamed the Phoenix. This was because on it's first week of service, it had a severe fire. This bus was assigned to the now closed Walnut Depot at the time. The East New York Central Maintenance Facility wanted to prove, if they can rebuilt buses from the ground up to save the MTA money, instead of sending buses out of house for rebuilding. This was proven successful.

[East New York]

7 hours ago, RSMG106 said:

Hello everybody. So, when I was a little tike, I used to ride on the GMC Rtses in Manhattan. They were pretty good at the time, but was retired a few years later from 2002-2007. I need to ask on these buses. Can anyone fill in on all of the facts for these buses, including powertrain, appearance, etc.?

These were some of my favorite buses. They had the Transit Authority or MaBSTOA titles back then. As a young kid I remember seeing these buses on the streets of Detroit making their trips down I-75 for that long trek to NYC. I was no more than 2-3 years old then, but one of my first words ever was bus, so i definitely haven't forgot.

Historically MTA loves to play with the specifications of buses, and over the years the RTS was no exception. The very first demo to NYC came in 1979, and it would be the beginning of a completely new wave of things. This was the fist demo to tout the new fuel saving DD 6V71. At the time, everything coming in had 8V71 engines. In a semi-concurrent evaluation, the new Flx was on the horizon as well and supplied a demo with an 8V71T. MTA would go on an order both the Flx and RTS, and decided on the new 6V71 for majority of the Flx order, with small batches of the new 8V71T.

On the RTS side of things MTA decided to order both the 6V71N and new lower emission, lower fuel consumption 6V92TA. After 1983, MTA then decided all new buses would be equipped with the 6V92TA. At first they did not think they would be powerful enough for MTA demands and needs. The engine would however go on to be one of the most popular and easily maintained powertrains in the fleet. All buses were equipped with Allison V730 transmissions, and of course MTA played with some minor specs.

I actually like to classify this series as 1981-1987. Technically the 1987 models are manufactured by TMC, but there is a unique history to these buses. They were ordered under GMC's watch, and the first buses rolled off the Detroit (Pontiac, MI) assembly line. The last of the buses were built at the TMC Roswell Facility by both GMC employees, and TMC employees. Those were buses 4600-4899. These were the training buses for TMC, and would serve as the beginning to a very long and successful business relationship with not only MTA, but NYCDOT as well.

In 1995, MTA selected the best 110 buses from the 1981-1982 fleets for complete rebuild. in 1996, 7000-7059 were rebuilt in-house with maintenance personnel from East New York on hand at the 207th Street overhaul shop. This would be the first and last time major rebuilds would take place there, as the 207th street shop is a train car overhaul facility. This location however was best because more buses could be worked on at once, therefore decreasing the time that they would be out of service. 7004 served as the test bus for the first in-house engine swap. The first major repower was of the 8000-8396 series RTS, but they were not done in-house. 7004 was fitted with a DDs50. 7038-7049 were fitted with coach seats and would go into express service upon completion. 7018 is now privately owned, and is still in the same coat of paint it was when it retired. I saw this bus a couple months ago as a good friend of mine drove it for an upcoming movie. That bus is still amazing, and will run circles around any bus currently in the MTA fleet. RTS' included!

7500-7599 were completed in Michigan, and returned to MTA where they would remain in service for another 8-9 years. To this day there have been many debates and legendary tails of what buses were better. We may never know, but one thing I do know is MTA/ENY/207 did a damn good job. 7018 is definitely proof. As a maintenance technician, and owner of an RTS myself, I am still to this day impressed with how they were maintained by MTA. This was a testament to GMC buses as well. To date, including the New Look, GMC undisputedly built the most popular, maintenance friendly, and reliable buses, transmissions, and engines ever. To this date, they are the longest lasting platforms out. The sun may have set on the bus side of the industry, but Detroit Diesel and Allison divisions are here to stay. I am very proud to have had a GMC and a Nova. Now all I need is a TMC lol.

Hope this provided you a bit more insight and information into the most legendary bus of all time. FYI, The RTS is featured on "The Bus IQ test" which can be found on all new buses equipped with the new information screens.

Team RTS for life! 😎

 

 

[RSMG106]

Thank you very much. I know how much you love the Rtses. And it's proven that it's longest lasting and most reliable bus fleet, behind the GMC and Flxible New Looks. 

[East New York]

7018 in 2018. She still has her signs that were programmed at retirement in 2005.  😎

 

[Q43LTD]

I remember riding that bus when it first came to Queens Village in the late 90's

[speedyracer90]

Some of those GMC RTS would leave you in a cloud of smoke when they took off. I remember hating when the MTA started painting their doors white in the late 90s, and then they took the alcoa's off the 94 TMCs, 96-98 Nova's and the GMC rebuilds.

Good times. 😎

[UTC Bus Roster]

On 9/19/2018 at 2:43 PM, RSMG106 said:

Interesting. Others that I found includes the following:

* 1298-1317, PA1734-PA1858, 3800-3899, 3916, 3964-3968, 4167-4169, 4194, 4497, 4742, and 4873-4888 had suburban style seating for express service.

* 1237 was retrofitted with a rooftop AC unit.

* Several 1981 T8W204s were transferred to Long Island Bus before retirement in the late 1990's.

* 1291 and PA2504 we're converted to MetroCard sales buses, but were retired later on.

* Many 1983 T8W204s were repowered with the Detroit Diesel 6V92TA engine.

* 3160 was repowered with the Detroit Diesel Series 50 engine as a test in 1993.

* 1717, 1721, and 1743 were repowered with the Detroit Diesel 6V71N engine.

*3496 was renumbered to 4211.

* 4149 was converted by the East New York CMF, to a command center bus, but renumbered to 0090 in 2007 due to the Orion VII Hybrid order taking that number. 

And lastly,

* 4396 was converted by the East New York CMF, to a Mobile Training Center unit, nicknamed the Phoenix. This was because on it's first week of service, it had a severe fire. This bus was assigned to the now closed Walnut Depot at the time. The East New York Central Maintenance Facility wanted to prove, if they can rebuilt buses from the ground up to save the MTA money, instead of sending buses out of house for rebuilding. This was proven successful.

Correction, there were both 1000's & 2000s that were rebuilt into the 7000-7049 series.

2201 was built with 4 roof hatches, as was delivered about a month before 1201.

Of the in-house 7000's, 7000 was rebuilt at Flatbush Depot, 7001 was rebuilt at Coliseum Depot. The higher numbers (I saw 7037 & 7038 being rebuilt, and the were MaBSTOA 2600'S) in 207 St. Yard. I have pics of 7001, 7002 as well as 7036 & 7037.

4396 was 7 hours into it's first run on it's first day in service when it burst into flames from an explosion from it's engine. The fire was so intense that it melted the farebox & the coins inside! I have a slide that I took of it in Walnut Scrap Yard in 1987 of the remains of 4396.

I can confirm that 3496 was indeed renumbered to 4211 after the original 4211 was scrapped by mistake! I photographed the original 4211 on the former Bx-24 route at W. 254 St. & Fieldston Rd.

1625 & 1633 were destroyed by fires when they were fairly new.

The 1981-82 RTS buses were delivered with no opening windows.

FYI, 3916, 3964-3968, 4167-4169, 4497, 4742 and 4873-4888 were delivered with hard seats. 4853-4899 were delivered with 2x2 hard seating.

1981 RTS: 1201-1658, 2201-2579. 1298-1317 delivered with express seating.

1982 RTS: 1659-1858, 2580-2704. 1734-1858 delivered with express seating.

1983 RTS: 3001-3325.

1984 RTS: 3400-3799.

1985 RTS: 3800-4218. 3800-3899 delivered with express seating.

1986 RTS: 4300-4599.

1987 RTS: 4600-4899. 4853-4899 delivered with 2x2 hard seats.

1990 RTS: 8000-8399 (8397-Methanol, 8398 Diesel/CNG, 8399 CNG)

1993 RTS: 8400-8567 (8567 CNG). (8402 & 8403 delivered as 93502-93503).

1994 RTS: 8600-8703.

1996 RTS: 8800-9249.

1997 RTS: 9250-9349 all delivered with express seating.

1998 RTS: 9350-9699.

1998-99 RTS: 4900-5249 4900-4901 delivered as test buses)

[Interested Rider]

Where's 8750 - 8799?

[Deucey]

Gawd, I remember when LA RTD started replacing their GM and Flxible New Looks with these...

https://www.showbus.com/gallery/foreign/usa/rtdrts.htm

[aemoreira81]

The power-train on these buses was:

1981: 1201-1658 and 2200-2579 - Detroit Diesel 6V71TA to Allison V730 

1201 is a museum bus today (since joined by 8971 in that duty).

1982: 1659-1858 and 2580-2704 - Detroit Diesel 6V92TA to Allison V730

1717, 1721, and 1743 were down-gauged to the 6V71 later on. When rebuilt, former 2504 (7004) received a Detroit Diesel series 50 engine. Rebuilds from this batch were: 7000-7049 (50 buses) - in house, and 7500-7559 (60 buses) at Midwest Bus in Michigan.

1983: 3001-3325 - Detroit Diesel 6V71TA to Allison V730

3160 received a Detroit Diesel series 50 engine in 1992.

1984, 1985, and 1986 (respectively: 3400-3799, 3800-4218, and 4300-4599): Detroit Diesel 6V92TA to Allison V730

4149 survives today as a Command Center bus (90) and 4396, which ran only one day in service before burning in a fire, is 10, largely serving in a similar purpose as bus 90.

Also, a large number of these buses were actually purchased by the Port Authority rather than the MTA. The Port Authority also bought buses for The Bee Line System and New Jersey Transit (including private line sub-leases).

The last of the GMC buses to run for the MTA would be 3503, by this time renumbered 1837, which was retired in 2007 after 23 years of service. It was one of 20 GMC and MCI (TMC) buses sold to the NYCDOT around 2003, but came back under the MTA with the private line acquisition.

Since the GMC RTS buses, only the 1996 Novas have reached 21 years in service, although some of the final batch will likely reach 21 years too.

Also of note; the RTS and New Look are the only models where newer examples have replaced older examples.

Also, why the MTA jumped from 4899 to 8000 with RTSs...the 5000s were taken then by rebuilt GMC New Looks (-5303, -5305, -5309/10 variant of the -5307), the 6000s by the final fourth-generation (MTA variant of the -5307, the 5309/10) GMC New Looks (the last ones) , and the 7000s by the batch of Flxible New Looks which included now-museum bus 7340 (no 9000-series Flxibles were preserved).

[Eric B]

On 9/20/2018 at 2:31 AM, East New York said:

7018 in 2018. She still has her signs that were programmed at retirement in 2005.  😎

 

Wow, just saw that going over the Williamsburg Bridge today. 

Is that now Museum Fleet?

[trainfan22]

14 minutes ago, Eric B said:

Wow, just saw that going over the Williamsburg Bridge today. 

Is that now Museum Fleet?

Nah, 7018 is privately owned. 1201 is apart of the MTA museum fleet which looks similar to 7018. I think only difference between the two is the powertrain, 1201 has 6v71 where's 7018 has 6v92.

[Eric B]

Are they ever going to try to get solid windows for 1201, since that was what that fleet was delivered with? (The sliding windows, which were retrofitted later, mess up the whole original look!)

[UTC Bus Roster]

On 9/24/2018 at 7:08 PM, Interested Rider said:

Where's 8750 - 8799?

1981 RTS: 1201-1658, 2201-2579. 1298-1317 delivered with express seating.

1982 RTS: 1659-1858, 2580-2704. 1734-1858 delivered with express seating.

1983 RTS: 3001-3325.

1984 RTS: 3400-3799.

1985 RTS: 3800-4218. 3800-3899 delivered with express seating.

1986 RTS: 4300-4599.

1987 RTS: 4600-4899. 4853-4899 delivered with 2x2 hard seats.

1990 RTS: 8000-8399 (8397-Methanol, 8398 Diesel/CNG, 8399 CNG)

1993 RTS: 8400-8567 (8567 CNG). (8402 & 8403 delivered as 93502-93503).

1994 RTS: 8600-8703.

1996 RTS: 8750-9249.

1997 RTS: 9250-9349 all delivered with express seating.

1998 RTS: 9350-9699.

1998-99 RTS: 4900-5249 4900-4901 delivered as test buses)

[Missabassie]

RTS - greatest North American transit bus. I used to get 3160 on the B6 occasionally, definitely remember that one.

[trainfan22]

Just saw some YouTube videos of 7018 and it doesn't have a 6v92 anymore, the owner changed the engine. So 10001 is the only known NYC RTS that's saved with a 6v92.

 

10001 is my favorite in the museum fleet cause I actually rode that Bus when it was still running with Green Lines. 

[East New York]

On 9/24/2018 at 7:08 PM, Interested Rider said:

Where's 8750 - 8799?

 

On 9/23/2018 at 11:28 PM, UTC Bus Roster said:

1994 RTS: 8600-8703.

1996 RTS: 8800-9249.

Not to nitpick but this is what it should be, by date of manufacture. However, according to model year 8750 and 8751 are 1996,  9250-9349 are 1996. 9350-9524 are 1997. 4900+ are 1999.

1995: 8750, 8751

1996: 8752-9294

1997: 9295-9524

1998: 4900-5104, 9525-9699

1999: 5105-5249 

1999 hybrid cancellation: 6360-6364. Pilot buses 6360 and 6361 were built. 

On 9/26/2018 at 7:08 AM, Eric B said:

Are they ever going to try to get solid windows for 1201, since that was what that fleet was delivered with? (The sliding windows, which were retrofitted later, mess up the whole original look!)

I agree, but there are no plan to change the windows at this time.

On 9/26/2018 at 10:38 AM, trainfan22 said:

Just saw some YouTube videos of 7018 and it doesn't have a 6v92 anymore, the owner changed the engine. So 10001 is the only known NYC RTS that's saved with a 6v92.

 

10001 is my favorite in the museum fleet cause I actually rode that Bus when it was still running with Green Lines. 

7018 still has a 6v92. I don't know where that rumor keeps coming from. Sounds just like my ex-OCTA RTS did.

10001 was originally supposed to be 10000 but another agency slipped an order in and persuaded GM to make their bus the 10000th off the line. Love that damn bus.

[King Transit]