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LIRR Opens Ronkonkoma Branch Double Track


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On 10/1/2018 at 8:04 PM, trainfan22 said:

In regards to Metro North not having any capital projects... they don't really need any (other than MN to NYP which shouldn't cost that much)

 

 

Only thing I can think of is straight - ing the New Haven line, and even then, it's mainly Amtrak fans/riders pushing for that. Some MN people want it due to it taking 2 hours to go from GCT to New Haven. The NH line between New Rochelle and New Haven is the only portion of the NEC where Amtrak trains can't travel 125 MPH.

 

Straight the NH line would be really difficult to pull off due all the land that would need to be bought and NIMBY. It would be nice, but I don't think it will ever happen.

Grade separation of Shell Interlocking is a must, and grade-separation projects at Stamford and South Norwalk should be considered. The Hudson Line should be electrified to Peekskill and perhaps Poughkeepsie. Penn Station Access via the Empire Connection should the next major capital project for Metro-North.

Amtrak plans to 6-track the New Haven Line. There is plenty of room on 1-95 for that.

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On 10/2/2018 at 3:19 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

Stony Brook vs Ronkonkoma?  The comparison is ridiculous to anyone except a railfan. Take a look at a map before advancing that argument. Better yet look at an historical map of the Port Jefferson line to Wading River. I doubt that there is any electric equipment available today or contemplated that can shave a significant amount of time between Stony Brook and NYC. It's my opinion that the line would have to have the curved portions straightened and then double tracked and fully electrified to even be mentioned in the same breath with KO service.  The better investment,  IMO, would be to electrify the KO line eastward to Greenport if the potential ridership/NIMBY factor warrants it. I happen to feel that the Montauk Branch should be electrified and double tracked before the PJ line is even considered at all.  Just my opinion though.  Carry on. 

Preparations were made to double-track and electrify the line in the 1980s and 1990s.

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17 hours ago, RR503 said:

If I may play the contrarian for a second, I don't think the LIRR should make more than incremental investments beyond the Ronkonkoma/PJ/Patchogue line. Since the Financial Crisis, the nature of (sub)urban development has changed paradigmatically -- the emphasis is not on making massive houses a million miles from jobs anymore, but on creating relatively dense communities that act as satellites to a larger core. This trend has been excellently documented elsewhere, but Long Island, ever the bastion of backwardness, has attempted to resist it. The result? Ridiculously high housing costs, inefficient land use, poor quality of life, and a rapidly aging population.

Given the centrality of transit to development, it's thus imperative that the LIRR make capacity/connectivity enhancements in these more inner suburbs -- creating more reverse/intra-island commute opportunities, fostering partnerships with NICE/SCT for cross-island travel, and doing more to encourage TOD near stations. That's where the future is. 

Reactivating the Central Branch should take place, and is a much better project than the flawed Main Line Third Track Project. By reducing padding and rerating trains, travel times could be significantly reduced, and express trains would largely be unnecessary, increasing service in Queens and Nassau. Hicksville is despicable. I entered it in the parking crater contest on Streetsblog and it lost in the final. It has great train service, but is surrounded by a huge parking crater. TOD would do a lot.

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6 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Preparations were made to double-track and electrify the line in the 1980s and 1990s.

And those plans are sitting next to the plans for the IND Second System today. As far as the Central Branch is concerned the only proposal we have heard in Suffolk gatherings  was to electrify the existing trackage between Babylon and Bethpage. A single track. Now if they could restore the old line through Levittown and Eisenhower Park we would have accomplished something.  Just my thoughts though.  .Carry on. 

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17 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

The problem with that way of thinking is more a political one than anything else. I'm one of those folks, also a contrarian, that sees Long Island as a whole, not four counties as most do. Everything has been geared " to the City" in my lifetime and probably the generation before mine. The (MTA) was created for the benefit of the island, especially the two eastern counties. The Long Island Rail Road Company is the stepchild of the major political parties of Suffolk and Nassau (Queens East). The NIMBYism and parochial way of thinking is why (MTA) Bus was created and why NICE, and SCT still exist in the first place. The proposals I've seen mentioned since I've taken up residence in Suffolk are ones that affect the LIRR. There's a reason why the FARM-KO double track was done in the first place. Supposedly completed ahead of time, too. The major controversies over the Heartland development at Pilgrim State/Brentwood and Edgewood, the construction of the new Wyandanch Station and gentrification of the surrounding area and the LIRR proposal to electrify the Central Branch. Obviously the 3rd track on the Mainline and ESA loom over everything. Meanwhile Mineola, Garden City, Hempstead, Hofstra vicinity, and the RT 110 corridor seem to be neglected IMO. There doesn't seem to be any overall master plan but pieces and ideas scattered across the landscape. The arguments I hear about development are all over the place. " If I wanted to be crowded up next to other people I wouldn't have moved out here". That one's generational. " In a few years everyone will be working from home ". That's generational, too. " Too much noise and crime in the city". Try telling that to someone like me who grew up with the Chaplains and Bishops in 1950s Brooklyn. Heroin and weed in the '60's ? Try MS-13, meth, K2, and heroin and other opioids in Nassau and Suffolk today. I just can't see increased density located closer to the city as something any Island politician could convince his/her constituents to embrace. I'm old enough to have lived through the "white flight" from Brooklyn to points further east on the Island. I remember my fourth grade teacher at PS 150K convincing my principal to let me make an announcement in the auditorium before school let out for the summer. It was to the braggarts who were " moving to Long Island " that summer. Those of us who were born in Brooklyn couldn't move to Long Island. When the commotion erupted and the principal silenced everyone I was told to explain my statement. If one was born in Brooklyn you were already a Long Island resident. You could move to another part of Long Island, perhaps, but not to Long Island. Heck, the "Battle of Long Island " was fought in the Revolutionary War between Greenwood cemetery and Prospect Park. To go back to your point the power in the (MTA) resides with the Prince and the county execs and they will determine what the region will look like community-wise and transport-wise. Sorry for the long post. Carry on.

Oh, I completely agree. Long Island governance is a deplorable mess -- not only is it ruled by those who think they and their lives are constantly under attack, but it also takes place within a highly fragmented system. There are something like 60 villages in Nassau County alone -- to expect any semblance of vision from any of these bodies is a tad ridiculous. 

I worry about the island. Surveys done show that the overwhelming number of young people (75% ish) want to leave. Already, the median age in both counties is in the 40s, and with that level of dissatisfaction, said stat isn't getting better. This leads to a vicious cycle wherein government expense pressure increases against a decreasingly productive workforce, leading eventually to civic bankruptcy. Unless something is done to attract the next generation to these areas (ie the construction of communities in which they'd want to live), the mere function of the island is an open question. 

5 hours ago, Union Tpke said:

Reactivating the Central Branch should take place, and is a much better project than the flawed Main Line Third Track Project. By reducing padding and rerating trains, travel times could be significantly reduced, and express trains would largely be unnecessary, increasing service in Queens and Nassau. Hicksville is despicable. I entered it in the parking crater contest on Streetsblog and it lost in the final. It has great train service, but is surrounded by a huge parking crater. TOD would do a lot.

Totally with you about the Central Branch (of course, keeping some trains via Hicksville/Mineola is a must -- especially if those towns are to become densified hubs). You'd probably have to do bury the tracks through Eisenhower Park/environs, but I think it'd be a worthwhile investment. Then you aren't totally screwing capacity on the Ronk/PJ. 

Regularizing stopping patterns is again something I really advocate for. It makes the system easier to use and operate, and adds a good bit of capacity along the way. 

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On 10/4/2018 at 2:16 PM, RR503 said:

Oh, I completely agree. Long Island governance is a deplorable mess -- not only is it ruled by those who think they and their lives are constantly under attack, but it also takes place within a highly fragmented system. There are something like 60 villages in Nassau County alone -- to expect any semblance of vision from any of these bodies is a tad ridiculous. 

I worry about the island. Surveys done show that the overwhelming number of young people (75% ish) want to leave. Already, the median age in both counties is in the 40s, and with that level of dissatisfaction, said stat isn't getting better. This leads to a vicious cycle wherein government expense pressure increases against a decreasingly productive workforce, leading eventually to civic bankruptcy. Unless something is done to attract the next generation to these areas (ie the construction of communities in which they'd want to live), the mere function of the island is an open question. 

Totally with you about the Central Branch (of course, keeping some trains via Hicksville/Mineola is a must -- especially if those towns are to become densified hubs). You'd probably have to do bury the tracks through Eisenhower Park/environs, but I think it'd be a worthwhile investment. Then you aren't totally screwing capacity on the Ronk/PJ. 

Regularizing stopping patterns is again something I really advocate for. It makes the system easier to use and operate, and adds a good bit of capacity along the way. 

Long Island is on the decline because it is a bedroom community in a cul-de-sac, though I'll admit it does have some nice vacation spots. That said, a tunnel between Greenport and the Main Land would substantially revitalize the eastern ends of the island by diverting traffic away from I-95 in the long term.

As for the 3rd Track, its only real purpose is redundancy. Were one of the tracks to be taken out of service - which apparently happens way more than it should, the PJ and Ronkonkoma branches aren't totally screwed. It's not going to offer any more capacity than simply making all trains run local and keeping travel times constant by reducing the padding would.

Reactivating the Central Branch looks great on a map but should only be undertaken long-term if more economic activity actually sprouts up around the Ronkonkoma branch.

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10 hours ago, Caelestor said:

As for the 3rd Track, its only real purpose is redundancy. Were one of the tracks to be taken out of service - which apparently happens way more than it should, the PJ and Ronkonkoma branches aren't totally screwed. It's not going to offer any more capacity than simply making all trains run local and keeping travel times constant by reducing the padding would.

3rd Track actually does little for redundancy. The whole point of it is to allow reverse peak service -- which allows cars to be balanced in the peak hours along with facilitating intra-island commutation. Off-peak, if one track goes down, you'll be left with one per direction, so no expresses. During the peak, they will in all likelihood end reverse-peak service and run just the two peak direction tracks -- screwing those people.

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On 10/6/2018 at 8:28 AM, RR503 said:

During the peak, they will in all likelihood end reverse-peak service and run just the two peak direction tracks -- screwing those people.

The correct solution for such situations is to run all the peak direction trains on one track. Slowing down the express trains by a few minutes is far better than cancelling all reverse peak service and messing up the train fleet schedules.

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