R179, R211 Cars to be Equipped for 8th Avenue CBTC

[Union Tpke]

Screen Shot 2018-10-19 at 4.24.05 PM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

Screen Shot 2018-10-19 at 4.24.27 PM by Union Turnpike, on Flickr

[TheNewYorkElevated]

Are the R179's in service getting an upgrade for this or are they gonna have no CBTC? 

[Union Tpke]

R179s

73 sets of R179 cars (4- and 5- car sets)

49 four-car sets (196 cars for  Crosstown CBTC?) + 24 five-car sets  (120 cars for  Eighth Avenue CBTC)

Will be installed by NYC Transit personnel in NYC Transit facilities; original spec. required only that they be prepared for later accommodation of CBTC installation

R211s

CBTC R211s on 92 5-car sets under the base contract, 128 5-car sets under Option 1, and 89 4-car and 5-car sets under option 2.

92(5)=460 cars under Base with CBTC out of 535 cars; 75 cars without CBTC installed for SIR; the 20 cars with open gangways will be CBTC equipped

128(5)=640 cars cars under Option 1 with CBTC out of 640 cars for Option 1

According to the January 2018 documents, the breakdown  will either be 333 or 437 cars for option 2

There is no way to have 89 sets and 333 cars if the sets are a mix of 4-car and 5-car units, meaning that they will go with the high number. 89(4) = 376, which is already more than the minimum.

Therefore, there will be 77 sets of 5-car units, and 12 sets of 4-car units, making 385 cars in 5-car sets, and 48 cars in 4-car sets, all equipped with CBTC.

There will be 1537 new cars for NYCT, all CBTC-equipped, and 75 for SIR.

There currently are 212 R143s and 64 R160s that are CBTC-equipped for Canarsie, there are 1,486 R160s in the process of being equipped with CBTC 309 sets (250 five-car units, and 59 four-car units) for Queens Blvd CBTC.

Cars with/without CBTC

276+1486+1537=3299 B Division Cars with CBTC

212 of 212 R143s - 100%

64+1486=1550 of 1662 R160s (40 R160s in 5-cars without CBTC for Broadway Line, 72 R160s in 4-cars without CBTC for Jamaica Line) - 93.26%

316 of 316 R179s - 100%

1537 of 1537 R211s - 100%

The R32s (222 cars), R42s (50 cars), R46s (752=940 60 footers) are all going to be retired.

272+940=1212 cars

1537-1212 cars=325 cars ≠ 625 R68/As

These cars would increase the spare factor and serve as growth cars, allowing for increases in peak service, and could serve for extension such as the  to Lefferts or  to Brooklyn, or just for Second Avenue.

3299 cars with CBTC + 737 cars (625 R68/As + 112 R160s) without CBTC=4036 cars – 81.73% CBTC equipped

The cars without CBTC would go to the Franklin Shuttle , the Jamaica Line , and the Broadway Line .

Currently the  uses 160 cars, of which 72 would be R160s, including spares. 160-72=88 cars needed. The 4-car sets that will make up the remainder of  service will have CBTC-equipped, but will not be used. The Shuttle uses 4 cars+5 spares, and the N/W and Q would use the 616 R68/A cars (534 in rush hour service) in 4-car sets.

Car Assignments

The  will use R68/As either now (with a three-way Jamaica, Concourse, CI swap) or will keep 40 R160s and get R46s from Jamaica, and then switch with Concourse and CI to get R68/As from the  and  which would get new cars for Sixth Avenue CBTC (R211s).

The 4-car R211s (48 cars) could serve as growth cars for Canarsie  alluded to in the last Capital Program, or could go the .

[HenryB]

Poor (J)(Z)(N)(W)(Q) will get the oldest cars in B-div for a while in the future 😕 

[Lance]

You mean they'll have to suffer with the old 68s and 160s? Cry me a river. When we currently have cars dating back over 50 years still in service, I think riders will be able to handle cars 30 years younger than that.

[R179 8258]

14 hours ago, HenryB said:

Poor (J)(Z)(N)(W)(Q) will get the oldest cars in B-div for a while in the future 😕 

The  and  will still have R160s. Plus in the time to come whenever we see a 4-car set  order they will be automatically in line for new cars because the  would be permanently full length 

[Union Tpke]

On 10/19/2018 at 5:16 PM, Union Tpke said:

R179s

73 sets of R179 cars (4- and 5- car sets)

49 four-car sets (196 cars for  Crosstown CBTC?) + 24 five-car sets  (120 cars for  Eighth Avenue CBTC)

Will be installed by NYC Transit personnel in NYC Transit facilities; original spec. required only that they be prepared for later accommodation of CBTC installation

R211s

CBTC R211s on 92 5-car sets under the base contract, 128 5-car sets under Option 1, and 89 4-car and 5-car sets under option 2.

92(5)=460 cars under Base with CBTC out of 535 cars; 75 cars without CBTC installed for SIR; the 20 cars with open gangways will be CBTC equipped

128(5)=640 cars cars under Option 1 with CBTC out of 640 cars for Option 1

According to the January 2018 documents, the breakdown  will either be 333 or 437 cars for option 2

There is no way to have 89 sets and 333 cars if the sets are a mix of 4-car and 5-car units, meaning that they will go with the high number. 89(4) = 356, which is already more than the minimum.

Therefore, there will be 81 sets of 5-car units, and 8 sets of 4-car units, making 405 cars in 5-car sets, and 32 cars in 4-car sets, all equipped with CBTC.

There will be 1537 new cars for NYCT, all CBTC-equipped, and 75 for SIR.

There currently are 212 R143s and 64 R160s that are CBTC-equipped for Canarsie, there are 1,486 R160s in the process of being equipped with CBTC 309 sets (250 five-car units, and 59 four-car units) for Queens Blvd CBTC.

Cars with/without CBTC

276+1486+1537=3299 B Division Cars with CBTC

212 of 212 R143s - 100%

64+1486=1550 of 1662 R160s (40 R160s in 5-cars without CBTC for Broadway Line, 72 R160s in 4-cars without CBTC for Jamaica Line) - 93.26%

316 of 316 R179s - 100%

1537 of 1537 R211s - 100%

The R32s (222 cars), R42s (50 cars), R46s (752=940 60 footers) are all going to be retired.

272+940=1212 cars

1537-1212 cars=325 cars ≠ 625 R68/As

These cars would increase the spare factor and serve as growth cars, allowing for increases in peak service, and could serve for extension such as the  to Lefferts or  to Brooklyn, or just for Second Avenue.

3299 cars with CBTC + 737 cars (625 R68/As + 112 R160s) without CBTC=4036 cars – 81.73% CBTC equipped

The cars without CBTC would go to the Franklin Shuttle , the Jamaica Line , and the Broadway Line .

Currently the  uses 160 cars, of which 72 would be R160s, including spares. 160-72=88 cars needed. The 4-car sets that will make up the remainder of  service will have CBTC-equipped, but will not be used. The Shuttle uses 4 cars+5 spares, and the N/W and Q would use the 616 R68/A cars (534 in rush hour service) in 4-car sets.

Car Assignments

The  will use R68/As either now (with a three-way Jamaica, Concourse, CI swap) or will keep 40 R160s and get R46s from Jamaica, and then switch with Concourse and CI to get R68/As from the  and  which would get new cars for Sixth Avenue CBTC (R211s).

The 4-car R211s (32 cars) could serve as growth cars for Canarsie  alluded to in the last Capital Program, or could go the .

Quote

 

I was in a rush to get this done before Shabbat came in. There are a few errors, which I fixed in red.

[LGA Link N Train]

 Welp, this is going to be some useful info. So from what I understand, R179's aren't going to stay on the and for long and could possibly go to the . Interesting, so in the next decade or so, assignments on the B division should look like this?

share between R179's and R211's  (ALL CBTC equipped)

uses R211's (CBTC equipped). Does this mean that no 68A's would remain on the ? 

All use 5 car CBTC equipped R160's 

using 4 car CBTC equipped R160's; possibility of using 4 car CBTC equipped R211's while not being directly assigned to them

- (is there a possibility that fleet could vary between either 4 car CBTC equipped R160's or R179's or is the only going to receive the latter for CBTC?) 

- Main fleet consists of Non-CBTC equipped R160's, but could occasionally use R143's and 211's in the Process while not being assigned to them

(since it's fully CBTC equipped) uses ALL R143's. It could share 4 car R160's with the along with the 4 car R211's. 

and the Franklin Avenue all use R68/68A's and nothing else since these lines are not getting CBTC right away. 

As for service extensions, I am going to state the following possibilities in my opinion:

*  extension to the Rockaways, since there is barely any service to the Rockaways. This'll help riders heading to JFK. (Trains could also terminate at JFK.) 

*  7-8 more trains added to terminate/originate at 96 Street. trains would get a 5-8 TPH increase to Astoria in place of the 's sent to 96. If that is not enough, then yoy could send 2 ttains to Astoria. This'll ease the bottleneck of the 34th Street interlocking and would help Broadway a whole lot in terms of Service. 

*  or trains can be extended to Brooklyn to aid the 4th Avenue Local for the midday hours. Montague is below capacity and service on the 4th Avenue local isn't that great. Possible terminal Locations are the following:

9th Avenue

Bay Parkway 

86th Street-Greavesend 

Bay Ridge-95th Street 

* trains can be extend to 18th Avenue and Terminate. It's likely to get a service increase so might as well send 1/3 of ALL trains express. 

* trains can short turn at Second Avenue or extend to Jamaica-179th Street since not all trains can run to Metropolitan Avenue due to the Williamsburg Bridge bottleneck and the Myrtle Bottleneck unless these issues were fixed.

 

[Union Tpke]

2 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

 Welp, this is going to be some useful info. So from what I understand, R179's aren't going to stay on the and for long and could possibly go to the . Interesting, so in the next decade or so, assignments on the B division should look like this?

Concerning the R179s, that is just speculation. I have not spoken to anyone about this. I am just guessing based on car assignments and the CBTC timeline. Don't take this as a fact. Just as a thought out and reasonable assumption. Don't start rumors that will get out of control.

[Union Tpke]

2 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

 Welp, this is going to be some useful info. So from what I understand, R179's aren't going to stay on the and for long and could possibly go to the . Interesting, so in the next decade or so, assignments on the B division should look like this?

Don't start any rumors.

share between R179's and R211's  (ALL CBTC equipped)

This is likely going to happen. The R179s could be moved elsewhere so that the A/C are completely R211s later on.

uses R211's (CBTC equipped). Does this mean that no 68A's would remain on the ? 

Something to remember is that once the R211s are in, any Mainline B Division Line will be able to use R160s (I expect the remaining 112 cars to get equipped), R179s and R211s. The cars might be switched around so it is easier for shops to do maintenance, or for capacity reasons. For instance, R211Ts could go to Jamaica. In addition, R68As could stay on the  until 6th Avenue CBTC is done, whenever that is.

All use 5 car CBTC equipped R160's 

Guaranteed to happen.

using 4 car CBTC equipped R160's; possibility of using 4 car CBTC equipped R211's while not being directly assigned to them

This is possible, but I am not sure whether the R211s will be able to operate on Mainline B Division CBTC and Canarsie CBTC.

- (is there a possibility that fleet could vary between either 4 car CBTC equipped R160's or R179's or is the only going to receive the latter for CBTC?) 

I don't know the plans, which are likely still up in the air. I suspect they will be using R179s, but I can't say.

- Main fleet consists of Non-CBTC equipped R160's, but could occasionally use R143's and 211's in the Process while not being assigned to them

Some R179s will almost certainly remain on the . They are four-cars after all. The , unless it is permanently going 8-car, should need so many cars. I would suspect that the R211s in 4-car sets go to the .

Quote

The 2015-2019 growth cars are expected to be used for additional service on the E, G, L, and N lines, although these service plans remain subject to change.

http://web.mta.info/mta/news/books/docs/TYNA-Consolidated.pdf P. 37

(since it's fully CBTC equipped) uses ALL R143's. It could share 4 car R160's with the along with the 4 car R211's. 

It will not share the 4-cars with the . These two kinds of CBTC are not compatible.

and the Franklin Avenue all use R68/68A's and nothing else since these lines are not getting CBTC right away.

This could change with the acceleration of CBTC.

 

 

[MTA Bus]

So, the  will be getting R211s if they exercise option 2?

[Around the Horn]

10 hours ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

 Welp, this is going to be some useful info. So from what I understand, R179's aren't going to stay on the and for long and could possibly go to the . Interesting, so in the next decade or so, assignments on the B division should look like this?

*snip*

It's almost impossible to speculate on car assignments 10 years in advance...

[LGA Link N Train]

1 hour ago, Around the Horn said:

It's almost impossible to speculate on car assignments 10 years in advance...

Meaning there is still a possibility. Besides, speculation is just speculation at the end of the day and not everything that is said to happen will actually happen. 

I rest my case