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Lawrence St

If 145th St and 148th St weren't built, how would 7th Ave be today?

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I don't mean to start a whole new topic but I feel like this can be a big discussion.

If 145th St and 148th St weren't built, would the (3) have replaced the (9) during rush hours and end at 137th St during off peak, or would 7th Avenue just have the (1) and (2) with the (4) running to New Lots at all times?

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15 hours ago, R68OnBroadway said:

You'd probably have the (3) going to Dyre and the (5) exist as a peak-direction express variant on Jerome of the (4).

How does that make sense? WPR loses direct access to Lex.

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It doesn't. The (5) White Plains Rd line has been a mainstay since its inception in the 1920s. Removing the existence of the upper Lenox would not have changed that.

To answer the original question, wherever the (4) travelled during the hours the (3) didn't run would've been it's primary southern terminus. Today, that would be New Lots Av, but if we were to go back, Flatbush Av would've been the primary terminal for the line. Also, those many years of the (4) terminating at Atlantic Av on middays would not have happened as there would've been a significant need for service in Brooklyn the (2) would not have been able to provide on its own. The idea of the (1) continuing to run to Brooklyn as it did prior to 1959 still wouldn't happen, even without the (3) as the secondary 7th Avenue express. We might've seen expanded (5) service in Brooklyn sooner than 2009, but that's a big if on how (2) and (4) service would handle the Brooklyn line.

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3 hours ago, Lance said:

It doesn't. The (5) White Plains Rd line has been a mainstay since its inception in the 1920s. Removing the existence of the upper Lenox would not have changed that.

To answer the original question, wherever the (4) travelled during the hours the (3) didn't run would've been it's primary southern terminus. Today, that would be New Lots Av, but if we were to go back, Flatbush Av would've been the primary terminal for the line. Also, those many years of the (4) terminating at Atlantic Av on middays would not have happened as there would've been a significant need for service in Brooklyn the (2) would not have been able to provide on its own. The idea of the (1) continuing to run to Brooklyn as it did prior to 1959 still wouldn't happen, even without the (3) as the secondary 7th Avenue express. We might've seen expanded (5) service in Brooklyn sooner than 2009, but that's a big if on how (2) and (4) service would handle the Brooklyn line.

You think 7th Avenue could handle it's own without a secondary express?

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At the current intervals for the (2) alone, probably not. Under a scenario where there was no Lenox Ave terminal station, the (2) would probably run more service to meet demand on both 7th Avenue and Eastern Pkwy/Nostrand Ave. Whether all this service would continue to Flatbush Av or operate essentially as a (3) to 241 Street is anyone's guess. However, I'm fairly certain the (1) would not play a part in express service as those merging delays at 96 Street were extremely detrimental to overall service on the line.

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I'm wondering - since the route naming scheme originally was based on clockwise from the Hudson River in Midtown, why the Lenox spur was made (3) and not (2)...

But not wondering that much.

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1 hour ago, Deucey said:

I'm wondering - since the route naming scheme originally was based on clockwise from the Hudson River in Midtown, why the Lenox spur was made (3) and not (2)...

But not wondering that much.

Honestly, it would've been (1)(2) for 7th Avenue, (3)(4)(5) for Lexington. (6) probably wouldn't exist.

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If 145th Street and Lenox Avenue station wasn't built the trackage would still have to be laid down.  The main train yard and barn for the original IRT subway was located north of the station. Just sayin' .

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9 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

If 145th Street and Lenox Avenue station wasn't built the trackage would still have to be laid down.  The main train yard and barn for the original IRT subway was located north of the station. Just sayin' .

So basically, short turn (2) trains to 135th St would exist?

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15 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

If 145th Street and Lenox Avenue station wasn't built the trackage would still have to be laid down.  The main train yard and barn for the original IRT subway was located north of the station. Just sayin' .

You mean Lenox yard I assume.   So, yeah, it made sense to build the stations.  

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