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Via Garibaldi 8

MTA chief: I made turnstile jumper buy a MetroCard

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22 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Here's the deal. If you make a felony. People will think twice to commit fare evasion.

I don't want to turn this to the haves and have nots. However, I will say this. If you can stand in line and buy $220.00 sneakers than you can definitely afford to pay into the system for $2.75. (Although the service stinks at this time but paying into the system is better than stealing into the system)

Way too heavy-handed. Screw someone's entire life over for a hasty decision. Repeat offenders let's have the conversation. While I do agree folks need to get there sh*t and priorities together which comes with time and age for most folks. You'll be very surprised of the Demographics that ask me for a swipe. Older folks and Increasingly younger non-people of color. I see them walk thru the gates quite often as well. I'm not really for identity politics and I doubt every young person standing in line at Supreme is fear beating. Since we're on the topic of stealing who am I looking to hold more accountable? Felonies for young and poor folks that can't afford the fare 8 out of 10 times already?. Or all the Developers and businesses that siphon from the system to make fortunes without adding a dime to the MTA's bottom line?  We can definitely stand to handouts some felonies that way as well.. Certainly a lot of getting over and gaming the system on that side. Let's enforce the rules evenly and not pick and choose!

Edited by RailRunRob
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Yeah, some people go all-out vigilante old school "justice" for minor crimes, way too overboard. Whenever some article about grafitti comes up, there are always some that would love to cut off the guy's hands. I used to see it as a joke, but as time has gone on its clear these people are dead serious about it, especially in this climate.

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16 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

I agree for those who don't enough or are short on the fare they should be exempt from being penalized

Those who make an active effort to avoid paying the fare (including turnstile jumping) should be arrested

At what juncture should said exemption be granted though? In other words, how exactly are you going to gauge "active effort to avoid paying the fare"?

If I'm a dollar short? If I'm I 10 cents short? 25 cents? 32 (lol)? While compassionate, it's still subjective... This is why the law is very much black & white & doesn't concern itself with the gray.....

Then again, what difference is this going to make, when you have b/o's waving people that are in that predicament (of being however short on fare) onto the bus anyway - fully considering their own livelihoods at the end of the day.....

3 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Way too heavy-handed. Screw someone's entire life over for a hasty decision. Repeat offenders let's have the conversation. While I do agree folks need to get there sh*t and priorities together which comes with time and age for most folks. You'll be very surprised of the Demographics that ask me for a swipe. Older folks and Increasingly younger non-people of color. I see them walk thru the gates quite often as well. I'm not really for identity politics and I doubt every young person standing in line at Supreme is fear beating. Since we're on the topic of stealing who am I looking to hold more accountable? Felonies for young and poor folks that can't afford the fare 8 out of 10 times already?. Or all the Developers and businesses that siphon from the system to make fortunes without adding a dime to the MTA's bottom line?  We can definitely stand to handouts some felonies that way as well.. Certainly a lot of getting over and gaming the system on that side. Let's enforce the rules evenly and not pick and choose!

The silliest defense I've heard for farebeating, is one of entitlement (i.e., if public transportation is for the "public", why should I have to pay? I don't pay for garbage & recycling pickup & those are public services... Right!?) <_<.... I have even heard one person literally say, verbatim, "The more I have to pay out every month for the subway, the less it's worth".... I can't exactly condone that line of thinking, but it does beg the question - How much does the average person value public transportation in this city anyway? Or better yet, how much is it being taken for granted..... There is a common saying that goes a little like: You don't know what you have until it's gone.... Farebeater or upstanding fare paying citizen, folks better be mindful of the rate at which this agency is, and will end up slashing service - especially in juxtaposition with impending fare increases....

I don't believe there's any consensus of people on here that support and/or tolerate farebeating - At the same time, anything regarding the conviction of those that engage in the blatant thievery of services as a felony, I'm not going to sit up here & give it much of any merit.....

 

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48 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

At what juncture should said exemption be granted though? In other words, how exactly are you going to gauge "active effort to avoid paying the fare"?

If I'm a dollar short? If I'm I 10 cents short? 25 cents? 32 (lol)? While compassionate, it's still subjective... This is why the law is very much black & white & doesn't concern itself with the gray.....

Then again, what difference is this going to make, when you have b/o's waving people that are in that predicament (of being however short on fare) onto the bus anyway - fully considering their own livelihoods at the end of the day.....

The silliest defense I've heard for farebeating, is one of entitlement (i.e., if public transportation is for the "public", why should I have to pay? I don't pay for garbage & recycling pickup & those are public services... Right!?) <_<.... I have even heard one person literally say, verbatim, "The more I have to pay out every month for the subway, the less it's worth".... I can't exactly condone that line of thinking, but it does beg the question - How much does the average person value public transportation in this city anyway? Or better yet, how much is it being taken for granted..... There is a common saying that goes a little like: You don't know what you have until it's gone.... Farebeater or upstanding fare paying citizen, folks better be mindful of the rate at which this agency is, and will end up slashing service - especially in juxtaposition with impending fare increases....

I don't believe there's any consensus of people on here that support and/or tolerate farebeating - At the same time, anything regarding the conviction of those that engage in the blatant thievery of services as a felony, I'm not going to sit up here & give it much of any merit.....

 

You make a great point. I don't think people know how great a system they have here in New York despite its shortcomings. As far as fare-beating I most definitely don't support lawlessness or not following the rules of the land. But I do feel we have to ask who's making the rules and the bases of how people are defining who's following the rules or not. A major human flaw is perception. If you're coming into the process feeling like a certain group people aren't contributing to society anyways, for example, it might be easier for you to say felony because the person isn't redeemable anyways. Just saying we have to enforce equally and honestly I don't think we do. It's identity politics IMO. I see it all the time. The same kids just walking on the bus without dipping there cards in the Bronx/Brooklyn. Low lives, Thugs, Jordan lovers draining the system and so forth. I've been traveling the Staten Island very often in the last 6 months. I hardly ever see Kids dip their cards walk right on.. S79,S84,S53 it's a courtesy from the drivers I don't see anywhere else in the City. The next reasonable question is why? And back to who gets to decide the rules and who's worthy or not. That's all im challenging not whether we need rules or not.

Edited by RailRunRob

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It doesn't matter if it's a felony or a fine. The key is setting up random, relatively frequent undercover police sting operations at turnstiles and in buses. Do this in a big wave for a few months, with attendant publicity. Arrest beaters en masse. Words will get around that it's risky to fare beat. You don't have to do this forever to have an effect. Just until fare beating goes down. Then lay off for a few months, and start again with no announcement. On and off every few moths, so it seems random and unpredictable.

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What are the numbers and stats on fare-beating anyways? I've never saw or heard any figures or roundabouts. What's the % of daily or weekly rides estimated unpaid. Let's start there and work forward.

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9 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

 

What are the numbers and stats on fare-beating anyways? I've never saw or heard any figures or roundabouts. What's the % of daily or weekly rides estimated unpaid. Let's start there and work forward.

You’ve never seen it because even the (MTA) doesn’t know. Their figures are estimates at best!! They just know that they lose millions every year, and while maybe $8 million a year seems smalll compared to their budget, it adds up over the course of years.

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1 hour ago, Italianstallion said:

It doesn't matter if it's a felony or a fine. The key is setting up random, relatively frequent undercover police sting operations at turnstiles and in buses. Do this in a big wave for a few months, with attendant publicity. Arrest beaters en masse. Words will get around that it's risky to fare beat. You don't have to do this forever to have an effect. Just until fare beating goes down. Then lay off for a few months, and start again with no announcement. On and off every few moths, so it seems random and unpredictable.

That’s exactly what they do with SBS and the word gets around FAST.

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10 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

You’ve never seen it because even the (MTA) doesn’t know. Their figures are estimates at best!! They just know that they lose millions every year, and while maybe $8 million a year seems smalll compared to their budget, it adds up over the course of years.

The MTA brings in $7-9B a year in rev. Almost a billion of that in Overtime alone (2016). Let's say they lose $30m a year $82k day that's still less than 1% prob .5% Now I'm not saying we shouldn't be trying to curb fare evasion as much as possible. But with every organization or business, there is a margin of loss or bad debt that you know you're going to have to chalk up to the game. 0.5% -2% Seems to be within a reasonable threshold. Point is there is a point or a line that you might spend more trying to save or police that fraction. I'm not going to spend $30M to save $30M. I would put money on 5% or less of rides are evaded. I feel as if most people feel like this number around 30% are we hyping this a bit from our own POV's? Without a concrete starting point, the mind can wander.. Just saying 

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Plus isn't the City providing half fare cards starting next year? That should also cut down that number quite a bit as well.

Edited by RailRunRob
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34 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That’s exactly what they do with SBS and the word gets around FAST.

Unfortunately, what gets around just as fast, is that *the coast is clear*....

The cycle is far too narrow & has been (somewhat) predictable over the years, during the course of every calendar year... After like 2 weeks of any sighting of these fare enforcers along some SBS route, they basically ride off into the sunset for months until they pop back up again on NYC's streets..... Once they're out there, they're out there, so be on the lookout - but when they're gone, it's open season on any of these routes, shouldn't be a thing.... That window (of opportunity) is too broad.....

In laymens, said randomness is not being done/planned diligently enough....

11 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

I would put money on 5% or less of rides are evaded. I feel as if most people feel like this number around 30% are we hyping this a bit from our own POV's? Without a concrete starting point, the mind can wander.. Just saying 

Farebeating, period, is a noticeable, widespread problem in this city.... It doesn't do any of us justice to try to quantify in the form or a percentage, just how much of this crap is going on....

 

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54 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Farebeating, period, is a noticeable, widespread problem in this city.... It doesn't do any of us justice to try to quantify in the form or a percentage, just how much of this crap is going on....

 

If that's the case then its way beyond the MTA and more like a Societal issue at large. So at this point, I have to ask in one of the riches Cities in the world Is society failing a major segment of the population and why? If people are just not wanting or able to pay there way for something as basic as transport.

Edited by RailRunRob
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3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That’s exactly what they do with SBS and the word gets around FAST.

 

1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

Unfortunately, what gets around just as fast, is that *the coast is clear*....

The cycle is far too narrow & has been (somewhat) predictable over the years, during the course of every calendar year... After like 2 weeks of any sighting of these fare enforcers along some SBS route, they basically ride off into the sunset for months until they pop back up again on NYC's streets..... Once they're out there, they're out there, so be on the lookout - but when they're gone, it's open season on any of these routes, shouldn't be a thing.... That window (of opportunity) is too broad.....

 In laymens, said randomness is not being done/planned diligently enough....

Wouldnt a workaround be to just ask someone getting off the bus for there ticket?  As I said every system and operation has a margin of error. It's Inevitable for any man-made system or rule base.

Edited by RailRunRob

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3 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That’s exactly what they do with SBS and the word gets around FAST.

This happened on the M15 a month back, and a classmate of mine said that she was going to pay her fare from then on.

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22 hours ago, subwaykid256 said:

This is such a stupid fear mongering topic. Most people nowadays just wait for someone with an unlimited to swipe them in. How about focus on improving the service. Because its annoying how the service consistently gets worse yet raises the fare all the time.

Every one dance around that it not hard to find out why the system is the way it is. People don’t take account things they do not have knowledge on so fine or prison is always the option. 

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1 hour ago, RailRunRob said:

 

Wouldnt a workaround be to just ask someone getting off the bus for there ticket?  As I said every system and operation has a margin of error. It's Inevitable for any man-made system or rule base.

I never knew why these teams don't have portable MetroCard scanners to show when it was swiped, but I suspect that when Tap Cards arrive, they'll have something to verify on the spot.

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7 minutes ago, Deucey said:

I never knew why these teams don't have portable MetroCard scanners to show when it was swiped, but I suspect that when Tap Cards arrive, they'll have something to verify on the spot.

The Metrocard is super old technology; I doubt whatever records it keeps are good enough to validate against.

Also, because it's a dead technology, there aren't really portable readers that can read it, and no one will make them.

The LIRR may use paper tickets, but the nice thing about the paper tickets is that they are really easy to validate. You don't need an army of collectors to do it, but that's the LIRR being stupid. Many places in fact still use paper tickets, at least in Europe.

I'm not sure how the tap cards will work, to be quite honest. They want it to be compatible with contactless bank cards, but I can't imagine those would keep transaction records like that on the card itself. This seems to be how London does it:

Quote

I believe the way it works now is that when the machine scans your card, it puts another zero-value transaction on there (like the transaction that happens when you touch in in the first place.)

Then, overnight, when the balances are reconciled and the day's fares deducted, if it turns out that card wasn't used to touch in before before the inspector checked it, it takes off a Revenue Inspection Charge (the equivalent of a Penalty Fare.)

Obviously, one assumes this is monitored, so if someone has a habit of 'forgetting' to touch in and being charged the maximum fare when they're caught, they will do the relevant digging and prosecute as normal.

 

Edited by bobtehpanda

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On 11/16/2018 at 6:32 AM, R68OnBroadway said:

A felony? Are you nuts? It should be just a fineable offense.

It’s theft of services, should be a class A misdemeanor at the very least. It’s a willful act to use the service of the MTA and not pay. Not any different from a persons failure to pay for a meal at a restaurant or a cab fare. In fact, this is worse in my opinion as it’s the general public who really pays for it.

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1 hour ago, Deucey said:

I never knew why these teams don't have portable MetroCard scanners to show when it was swiped, but I suspect that when Tap Cards arrive, they'll have something to verify on the spot.

Indeed and even with scanning RF cards, there's still going to be a margin of error somewhere. A riders phone dies in route etc. There's just no way to enforce anything 100%. SBS routes mathematically are prob easier to enforce being it's major routes in more visible area's what's the ratio of new fare collection agents need for every route to make sure the probability of covering routes to at least give the illusion of enforcement once everything goes all-door boarding? Lockdown a route like B46 or BX41 do people just start fare beating on secondary routes like a S54 ,Q 37 or Bx24? Patch one hole another appears. Never zero-sum always a game of how do I lose the least because you're going to lose something somewhere at some point.

Edited by RailRunRob

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53 minutes ago, INDman said:

In fact, this is worse in my opinion as it’s the general public who really pays for it.

Not saying we're not but again Amazon is getting a $ 2.6 Billion break on our dime and 99.2% of us won't see anything for it. Not a station upgrade, a bus stop nothing! Petty crimes should be handled no doubt quality of life issue. But on the list of things to be passionate about there's for sure afew things that top the list before this issue. Albany Looting Raping and pillaging is number 1 with a bullet in my book volume 1.

Edited by RailRunRob
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On 11/15/2018 at 8:36 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Still, Byford doesn’t think bus drivers should risk their safety to confront riders who skip out on fares.

“We can’t ask employees to do that, to say you must enforce a fare to the point of putting yourself in physical danger,” he said.

thank you.

signed, all bus operators. 

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40 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Not saying we're not but again Amazon is getting a $ 2.6 Billion break on our dime and 99.2% of us won't see anything for it. Not a station upgrade, a bus stop nothing! Petty crimes should be handled no doubt quality of life issue. But on the list of things to be passionate about there's for sure afew things that top the list before this issue. Albany Looting Raping and pillaging is number 1 with a bullet in my book volume 1.

I don’t have the time to type out how much I hate the Amazon deal. I work in Jersey City which sold its soul to corporations and crippled the commute of millions from western Jersey and PA by giving billions in tax abatement s to developers for next to nothing in return for the added strain to the already burned infrastructure.

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Slightly off topic but you know what else would decrease the chances of fate beating?

 

Not building doors and walls that are more or less half your height in these "reconstructed" stations.

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10 hours ago, INDman said:

I don’t have the time to type out how much I hate the Amazon deal. I work in Jersey City which sold its soul to corporations and crippled the commute of millions from western Jersey and PA by giving billions in tax abatement s to developers for next to nothing in return for the added strain to the already burned infrastructure.

Can't say I don't full heartedly agree with you. To my point, this is far more of a widespread and damaging issue for Regional Transportation bar none. Every issue isn't equal can't lose track of the overall goal. Which is better transportation for the City, Region and all. IMO too much is oversimplified and subject to distraction and noise and very often that's purposely. As I tell my team sometimes if you can't solve the problem or have the answer right off the next best thing is trying to manage the issue at hand. IMO fair beating can be placed in that manage bracket. While the bigger funding war is waged.

Edited by RailRunRob

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10 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

If that's the case then its way beyond the MTA and more like a Societal issue at large. So at this point, I have to ask in one of the riches Cities in the world Is society failing a major segment of the population and why? If people are just not wanting or able to pay there way for something as basic as transport.

Has the prevalence of farebeating increased on other public transportation systems here in the US though? (serious question, as I don't pay attention to the ongoings of public transit west of SEPTA land..)

I may be in whatever minority here, but I honestly believe the MTA plays a significant role in fostering the (increased, IMO) rate of farebeating on its buses & trains it's been seeing, say, the past 10-15 years.... There may be a large[r] swathe of those residing in this city as the lower class or the working poor than in years past, but I can't believe that this many people are as impecunious (and/or unemployed, without a dollar to their name in the bank account they may or may not have) that there are as many people (adults, more specifically) not paying the fare, that can't pay the fare....

I remember seeing a comment to a blogpost that read something to the effect of *This bus is always late & crowded, so I get on through the back doors. It saves time & nobody likes to move to the back anyway*.... I shook my head while laughing at the same time....

This isn't an indictment on your post here or anything, but cynical me says, why (would they) bother tackling farebeating when they could use the ridership numbers (they're likely skewing anyway) to further justify more future cuts.... Same logic applies for them being perfectly fine (again, IMO) with the dollar cabs/vans/mini-buses in certain parts of Brooklyn & Queens siphoning ridership off certain routes... Mighty funny how dollar cab/van/mini-bus usage has increased, boat usage has increased, taxicab/rideshare usage has increased, bike usage has increased, but MTA's buses & trains are seeing losses... And the MTA has f*** all to do with that? Come on... Lol... That is what rubbed me the wrong way about Larry something another's comment I mentioned earlier...

I'm not buying that they're are as many that are unable, I'm much more inclined to believe that folks simply don't want to pay... If you value something, even if you're down to your last 2 nickels to rub together, you're going to pay for it.... It isn't wholly, and not that it's right, but it's largely an MTA problem as to why people are stealing service at the frequency that they are - and all the negative reinforcement in the world isn't going to stop that bleeding.....

Although I'm sick of seeing & maneuvering around all these damn cabs in this city, you can't really blame these guys for exploiting a market.... Kill or be killed.

9 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Wouldnt a workaround be to just ask someone getting off the bus for there ticket?  As I said every system and operation has a margin of error. It's Inevitable for any man-made system or rule base.

The current plan of action of bumrushing buses & asking everyone on it for their ticket at a particular stop makes more sense....

As to what you bring up here as a workaround, NJT has a similar policy on the buses that seldom anyone really does anymore (driver side or passenger side)... You pay your fare/show your pass upon boarding, the b/o hands you a receipt & when you're set to disembark, you're to hand the driver back that receipt (which never really made sense to me on the local routes, as it would make rear door exiting basically useless).... Anyway, for what you're saying, all I'd have to do was stick it out one more stop to avoid any interaction with them.... Then either walk back or farebeat yet again (heading back in the opposite direction)....

4 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Slightly off topic but you know what else would decrease the chances of fa[r]e beating?

Not building doors and walls that are more or less half your height in these "reconstructed" stations.

Or HEET the subway system to death.....

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