CBTC - General Discussion

[RTOMan]

1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Past Bway Jct in which directions? Towards Rockaway or Towards 8th Av?

Oh my mistake towards 8th ave..

[RTOMan]

CBTC In  effect(ATPM Mode only) starting Monday 0500 hrs from Court Square to 50th and 8th ave on the Echo and 47th-50th street on the Mikey Both Directions...

Edited January 3, 2021 by RTOMan

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

23 hours ago, RTOMan said:

CBTC In  effect(ATPM Mode only) starting Monday 0500 hrs from Court Square to 50th and 8th ave on the Echo and 47th-50th street on the Mikey Both Directions...

trains are running via 53rd but (M) trains still running via 63rd today. Did something happen with the CBTC system and are trains running ATPM?

[Lex]

1 hour ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

trains are running via 53rd but trains still running via 63rd today. Did something happen with the CBTC system and are trains running ATPM?

Apparently, they're not quite finished.

It's just as well, seeing that today's the day water started rushing into the Lexington Avenue complex...

[RTOMan]

2 hours ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

trains are running via 53rd but trains still running via 63rd today. Did something happen with the CBTC system and are trains running ATPM?

 

10 minutes ago, Lex said:

Apparently, they're not quite finished.

It's just as well, seeing that today's the day water started rushing into the Lexington Avenue complex...

Software issues.. 

Heh...;)

[RTOMan]

Software issues almost complete Echos and Mikeys Normal in 53rd street..

Foxes still in Bypass(Only during the Rutgers shutdown GO).

[subway4832]

Not sure how true it is but I just saw a memo saying that CBTC along QBL has been suspended as of today. 

[RTOMan]

15 hours ago, subway4832 said:

Not sure how true it is but I just saw a memo saying that CBTC along QBL has been suspended as of today. 

Yesterday yes it was...

[bulk88]

CBTC back Union to Roosevelt, and 53 tunnel. Exp between Roosevelt and queens Blvd no. Woodhaven Blvd GTs r gone, but they were almost gone after Byfords project speed. WB union to 71 on E is a shit show. 30 mph hard cBTC GT whole way starting at west end union, after yard merge at 71 av, 25 mph GT down first half of 71, 20 mph Gt other half of 71 av. Once train stops at 71 45/50/unlimited mph block. On legacy, 75 ave to 71, once you clear the 75 ave interlocking is 40 mph peak my whole life. Again no integration, all of union to 71 is "DGT" aspects even tho train never "D" . Lol

[R10 2952]

Several years ago there was an incident where ATS went down on the IRT, caused the entire A Division to be f**ked for all of afternoon rush hour.  It's got me thinking, do the current CBTC systems being brought online across NYCT have any fail-safes to prevent that type of shit from happening again down the road?

I mean, suppose the system crashes or even gets hacked- then what? Seems like that would be a much bigger operational disruption than a single fixed-block signal going dark, if you ask me.

Edited March 4, 2021 by R10 2952

[RR503]

1 hour ago, R10 2952 said:

Several years ago there was an incident where ATS went down on the IRT, caused the entire A Division to be f**ked for all of afternoon rush hour.  It's got me thinking, do the current CBTC systems being brought online across NYCT have any fail-safes to prevent that type of shit from happening again down the road?

I mean, suppose the system crashes or even gets hacked- then what? Seems like that would be a much bigger operational disruption than a single fixed-block signal going dark, if you ask me.

On the and QB, there exist auxiliary wayside signals which allow some basic service to be run when CBTC is down, or when you have non-equipped trains. The 's allow about a 10-12 min headway, the 's and QB's allow about a 5. Thing is, those waysides are expensive to install and maintain, and really aren't that useful if CBTC shits the bed in the middle of rush hour -- it's not like you can magically thin out  and  service by 60% to make service operable with AWS. So, IMO at least, they really should be engineered out of future designs. CBTC failures are operationally catastrophic but exceedingly rare, and actually the additional complexity introduced by auxiliary waysides can reduce overall system reliability. Everything is about tradeoffs, and the one most well-operated subway systems make is cheaper/more simple signals with fewer backups. 

[Lex]

2 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Several years ago there was an incident where ATS went down on the IRT, caused the entire A Division to be f**ked for all of afternoon rush hour.  It's got me thinking, do the current CBTC systems being brought online across NYCT have any fail-safes to prevent that type of shit from happening again down the road?

I mean, suppose the system crashes or even gets hacked- then what? Seems like that would be a much bigger operational disruption than a single fixed-block signal going dark, if you ask me.

I remember that day. The signals did f*ck all to help.

[4 via Mosholu]

2 hours ago, R10 2952 said:

Several years ago there was an incident where ATS went down on the IRT, caused the entire A Division to be f**ked for all of afternoon rush hour.  It's got me thinking, do the current CBTC systems being brought online across NYCT have any fail-safes to prevent that type of shit from happening again down the road?

I mean, suppose the system crashes or even gets hacked- then what? Seems like that would be a much bigger operational disruption than a single fixed-block signal going dark, if you ask me.

Do you remember when the failure within the mainline IRT occurred?

What was the source of the Automatic Train Supervision failure on the mainline IRT?

[R10 2952]

1 hour ago, 4 via Mosholu said:

Do you remember when the failure within the mainline IRT occurred?

What was the source of the Automatic Train Supervision failure on the mainline IRT?

Off the top of my head, it was around 2011, and I think it was TwoTimer who went into details explaining what happened exactly, but he doesn't post here anymore.

[Lex]

44 minutes ago, R10 2952 said:

Off the top of my head, it was around 2011, and I think it was TwoTimer who went into details explaining what happened exactly, but he doesn't post here anymore.

The one I remember also had an incident with the 42nd Street  (the doors opened on the wrong side at Times Square). That was in 2014.

[R10 2952]

@RR503 The key words being well-operated and catastrophic-but-rare.  Most North American systems I've ridden on are not the former, and the latter, by definition, wreaks havoc anytime it does happen.

Having been caught in that ATS failure on the A division as well as two separate system failures on the , as a passenger I'm not enthusiastic about a future prospect of trading a twice-monthly, short-circuited signal in one fixed block for a twice-yearly software glitch or malware attack that brings down an entire line or even the system.  That day when the IRT crapped out, Atlantic Avenue was chaos and much of nobody was able to board a BMT train on the first attempt.  As to Canarsie, that was no picnic either.

Edited March 5, 2021 by R10 2952

[bulk88]

On 3/4/2021 at 4:18 PM, R10 2952 said:

Several years ago there was an incident where ATS went down on the IRT, caused the entire A Division to be f**ked for all of afternoon rush hour.  It's got me thinking, do the current CBTC systems being brought online across NYCT have any fail-safes to prevent that type of shit from happening again down the road?

I mean, suppose the system crashes or even gets hacked- then what? Seems like that would be a much bigger operational disruption than a single fixed-block signal going dark, if you ask me.

Isn't ATS non-vital or in my words "advisory"? No countdown clocks, and all interlockings require TOs radioing OCC to ID their train and OCC moves switches manually. IIRC ATS and remote towers/IRT CTC interlockings are unrelated systems in NYCT.

A VOBC (train) sends updates to 2 zone controllers at 2 different stations/closets in primary/secondary mode over the LAN. 1 zone controller issues movement authorities to each train in a 3-5 station zone. A dispatcher/manager can cut out a zone controller and the secondary zone controller which in theory has the same position info as the first, will in less than a second issue more movement authorities to VOBCs. The radio base stations have 2 LAN links supposedly and both LANs are connected to both zone controllers at all times. Base stations range overlaps also. Only "software upgrades" and refusing to use "overtime" to repair a failed primary component for budget reasons and then days or weeks later the secondary fails, can take down the system 😀

 

 

[RR503]

On 3/6/2021 at 1:45 PM, bulk88 said:

Isn't ATS non-vital or in my words "advisory"? No countdown clocks, and all interlockings require TOs radioing OCC to ID their train and OCC moves switches manually. IIRC ATS and remote towers/IRT CTC interlockings are unrelated systems in NYCT.

Sorta. If you lose comms between ATS and the interlocking, you'll lose your fleeted routes => all signals within interlocking limits will drop to red, compromising the railroad. This is exceedingly rare. The fix is to man each tower, which requires a) qualified TSSes and Tw/Os to be present and b) for them to know what they're doing. 

On 3/4/2021 at 10:02 PM, R10 2952 said:

@RR503 The key words being well-operated and catastrophic-but-rare.  Most North American systems I've ridden on are not the former, and the latter, by definition, wreaks havoc anytime it does happen.

Having been caught in that ATS failure on the A division as well as two separate system failures on the , as a passenger I'm not enthusiastic about a future prospect of trading a twice-monthly, short-circuited signal in one fixed block for a twice-yearly software glitch or malware attack that brings down an entire line or even the system.  That day when the IRT crapped out, Atlantic Avenue was chaos and much of nobody was able to board a BMT train on the first attempt.  As to Canarsie, that was no picnic either.

Twice monthly versus a few times per decade is probably a more accurate comparison of the risks that you get caught up in x type of signal failure, once CBTC is fully cut in on a line. As bulk88 notes, it's really quite a reliable system. 

To the broader point: thank you for illustrating how mediocre institutional ops competency increases capital costs! Don't design for bad organizational practices. Fix those, and design your system to a higher standard. And regardless, the primary reason NYCT designs auxiliary waysides is for work train movements, not CBTC failure recovery. Equipping work trains is a solved problem, and is something we should absolutely be aiming to do in the medium term. 

[Around the Horn]

4 hours ago, RR503 said:

To the broader point: thank you for illustrating how mediocre institutional ops competency increases capital costs! Don't design for bad organizational practices. Fix those, and design your system to a higher standard. And regardless, the primary reason NYCT designs auxiliary waysides is for work train movements, not CBTC failure recovery. Equipping work trains is a solved problem, and is something we should absolutely be aiming to do in the medium term. 

If I had a nickel for every time you've shared that presentation, I'd be rich! lol

More seriously, has transit done anything about equipping work trains since that came out?

[RR503]

On 3/8/2021 at 12:42 AM, Around the Horn said:

If I had a nickel for every time you've shared that presentation, I'd be rich! lol

More seriously, has transit done anything about equipping work trains since that came out?

I wish I knew. I imagine the 255s are being spec'd with provisions for conversion given that the 156s were, but not sure whether we have firm info on that front. @Union Tpke?

[R68ACTrain]

On 3/4/2021 at 7:01 PM, Lex said:

I remember that day. The signals did f*ck all to help.

What happened that day?

[RTOMan]

Looks like its moving right along they are doing various "Tie-In" GOs in queens...

So CBTC might be in effect from Kew to 50th street and 8th ave on the Echo...

Kew to Roosevelt Island on the Fox...

CTL to 5th ave on the Mikey..

CTL to Queens Plaza on the Romeo..

We been in BYPASS from 2100 to 0500 during the nights with these GOs...

Looking forward to them turning that "ON" switch fully.. Heh...

[MarkGuy]

On 4/15/2021 at 1:43 PM, RTOMan said:

Looks like its moving right along they are doing various "Tie-In" GOs in queens...

So CBTC might be in effect from Kew to 50th street and 8th ave on the Echo...

Kew to Roosevelt Island on the Fox...

CTL to 5th ave on the Mikey..

CTL to Queens Plaza on the Romeo..

We been in BYPASS from 2100 to 0500 during the nights with these GOs...

Looking forward to them turning that "ON" switch fully.. Heh...

I stay keeping that mss in normal whenever I have the Fox. Or Echo. I remember I left Roosevelt and my follower immediately went cbtc bie entering the station. Not trying to deal with it as long as I can.

 

[bulk88]

On 4/17/2021 at 12:27 PM, MarkGuy said:

I stay keeping that mss in normal whenever I have the Fox. Or Echo. I remember I left Roosevelt and my follower immediately went cbtc bie entering the station. Not trying to deal with it as long as I can.

 

QBL CBTC != 7/L train CBTC. QBL CBTC has automatic blocks/track circuits triggering "location updates" of fake CBTC-enabled (bypass/AWS) trains, IRT ATS style. 7/L did hard cut overs in 1 weekend. no going back without another GO. QBL CBTC allows FULL operation of the legacy track circuits (bypass) and CBTC trains interleaved at 2-3 minute headways. Double the equipment, double the maintenance, double the failures, and EXACTLY the same timers. QBL CBTC is just "cab signals" (PRR pulse code) the way its implemented, not CBTC.

[RR503]

11 hours ago, bulk88 said:

QBL CBTC != 7/L train CBTC. QBL CBTC has automatic blocks/track circuits triggering "location updates" of fake CBTC-enabled (bypass/AWS) trains, IRT ATS style. 7/L did hard cut overs in 1 weekend. no going back without another GO. QBL CBTC allows FULL operation of the legacy track circuits (bypass) and CBTC trains interleaved at 2-3 minute headways. Double the equipment, double the maintenance, double the failures, and EXACTLY the same timers. QBL CBTC is just "cab signals" (PRR pulse code) the way its implemented, not CBTC.

This is how it's operating *now*, not how it's planned to operate forever. AWS on QBL will not support much more than a 5 min headway (like the ), speeds will increase, etc. 

And FWIW, the  did tons of off peak section-level testing until full cutover -- not unlike the overnight periods seen on QBL. There wasn't such an extended mingling period, yes, but it wasn't a hard transition either.