City touts Select Bus Service success on Woodhaven & Cross Bay Boulevards — but one lawmaker doesn’t buy it

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

14 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

And put them where?? On your block? 

Maybe that's the solution for the Casey Stengel closure.

[B35 via Church]

15 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Nothing wrong with using free federal funding, but they're only making SBS lines better while doing nothing to improve local bus service, and that's a problem.

It's actually worse than that... They're making local service less attractive; running it into the ground... to have more people walking to less stops (major stops, however you wish to categorize it).... to have people eventually waiting for less buses - All under the guise of cutting commuting times.... I'll reference it as many times as I have to - the express bus redesign (SI) will end up being a microcosm of things to come....

There isn't one route that has both an SBS & a local counterpart where the local service got better.... Not one.

15 hours ago, Jdog14 said:

He didn't mention how shit the B46 local has become 😆

That's the goal - to have everybody buying into SBS' & shunning local service.....

End result? Less resources on the road... Greatest trick ever pulled.

14 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Maybe the solution is to remove all buses from Woodhaven.

Maybe the solution is to have your wife stuck on more trains...

Maybe the solution is to remove your trolling ass from this forum...

Go to bed.

[Lil 57]

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

There isn't one route that has both an SBS & a local counterpart where the local service got better.... Not one.

 

8 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

That's the goal - to have everybody buying into SBS' & shunning local service.....

I feel like whenever SBS is introduced to a corridor they cut local service so much so they can get people on the SBS. The Hylan/Richmond corridor is a great example on that. On Sundays, the S79 runs every 10-12 minutes while the only local counterpart (for Richmond Ave) runs every 30 minutes. On Hylan, the S78 can be very unreliable at any time of the day. Sometimes it's quicker to take the S79 and walk versus taking the S78 directly to your destination due to the unreliability of the S78, even if the walk to/from the S79 is 10 to 15 minutes.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, Lil 57 said:

 

I feel like whenever SBS is introduced to a corridor they cut local service so much so they can get people on the SBS. The Hylan/Richmond corridor is a great example on that. On Sundays, the S79 runs every 10-12 minutes while the only local counterpart (for Richmond Ave) runs every 30 minutes. On Hylan, the S78 can be very unreliable at any time of the day. Sometimes it's quicker to take the S79 and walk versus taking the S78 directly to your destination due to the unreliability of the S78, even if the walk to/from the S79 is 10 to 15 minutes.  

That’s exactly what they want... SBS is cheaper for them to run. To hell with what the customer needs. SBS is FEDERALLY funded. That’s why they love talking about riders getting to ride their newest buses. Of course they do... They get them federally funded too... 

[BrooklynBus]

On 11/26/2018 at 7:42 PM, Brillant93 said:

Well I take the B82 sbs everyday for work and I can tell you that sbs does speed up buses. A bus espeically a local one does spend a great deal of time at a bus stop, even at one where its very busy it could take almost over a minute. Before the B82 was converted to sbs It would take me nearly and hour to get home and thats because often service was sporadic and dwell times at bus stop was awful and it lead to people farebeating. Now with all door boarding and paying before you get on a bus can spend literally half the time it use to at a bus stop and leave. Now being how the bus lanes were significantly cut down on that route the only fast part is on the big part of kings hwy, it shaves off around like 4-8 minutes but its been an improvement for me even though there can be further improvements. So I can see why they say it speeds up buses in a vision zero plan even when speeds are capped and lights aren't synced. Now if the solution is have lights more synced and raise up the speed limit then that needs to be addressed.  

 

But the Bus lanes were not needed on the wide portion of KH as DOTs own data showed and it has slowed down traffic. And why are they in effect when there is no SBS?

[BrooklynBus]

On 11/26/2018 at 6:58 PM, Brillant93 said:

So its biased because it neglects the input from motorists? If Woodhaven blvd has been a pedestrain issue shouldn't more have been done to help prevent that? To me I feel that is more of a priority than a "traffic nightmare". If the biggest things for traffic to be done is synchronizing lights and speed bumps then what is the cause of this traffic nightmare? If its gridlock due to bus lanes why should straphangers be subjected to being stuck in traffic and resulting in a decline in bus ridership? If more of us are on public transit I think straphangers should be prioritized. But even still with bus lanes you have people parking and driving in them.

I feel like in this case we have way too many lawmakers who put bus riders at the back end of the stick and they always are against improving bus service because those same law makers don't even ride bus themselves. Even take a look at how much our own mayor even cares about bus riders. It seems that people have to try twice as hard to get better bus service and its sad. 

And why shouldn't there be input from motorists when they account for 80 percent of the corridors users in vehicles?

"Traffic calming" has not worked so their solution is we need more. That makes no sense. If I said adding traffic lanes did not reduce congestion so we need more lanes, you would laugh at me. But they can use the same flawed logic and it's okay.

[JeremiahC99]

1 minute ago, BrooklynBus said:

But the Bus lanes were not needed on the wide portion of KH as DOTs own data showed and it has slowed down traffic. And why are they in effect when there is no SBS?

Looks like the DOT Villains did that to slow traffic and inconvenience drivers. I find that messed up that bus lanes are in effect 24 hours when bus routes using that lane do not run 24 hours. Al least give drivers a break overnight,

Just now, BrooklynBus said:

And why shouldn't there be input from motorists when they account for 80 percent of the corridors users in vehicles?

"Traffic calming" has not worked so their solution is we need more. That makes no sense. If I said adding traffic lanes did not reduce congestion so we need more lanes, you would laugh at me. But they can use the same flawed logic and it's okay.

We need people like you to work at DOT. You're more knowledgeable in traffic that the people currently working there.

[BrooklynBus]

Just like I predicted in one of my articles before SBS started, no matter what the true data says, DOT will call it a success after a year.

[Brillant93]

39 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

But the Bus lanes were not needed on the wide portion of KH as DOTs own data showed and it has slowed down traffic. And why are they in effect when there is no SBS?

Because buses sbs or not still run there 24/7?????? On top of that you have three bus routes that carries way more people than driving cars along the big portion of kings hwy. 

32 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

And why shouldn't there be input from motorists when they account for 80 percent of the corridors users in vehicles?

"Traffic calming" has not worked so their solution is we need more. That makes no sense. If I said adding traffic lanes did not reduce congestion so we need more lanes, you would laugh at me. But they can use the same flawed logic and it's okay.

I never said there shouldn’t be input from motorists but we all know what they want and it’s space only for them and that’s it. It doesn’t matter if buses are stuck behind them in the street or buses leap frogging because they like to park in bus stops.

I’m not sure what you’re saying because you’re not making any sense at all. You’re saying they’re using logic of using more of what? Bus lanes? If congestion is bad due to lights not syncing or whatever then where is the issue with bus lanes? The lanes I recalled on that part aren’t in effect until rush hour times or at least along curbside lanes.  

[BrooklynBus]

21 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Because buses sbs or not still run there 24/7?????? On top of that you have three bus routes that carries way more people than driving cars along the big portion of kings hwy. 

I never said there shouldn’t be input from motorists but we all know what they want and it’s space only for them and that’s it. It doesn’t matter if buses are stuck behind them in the street or buses leap frogging because they like to park in bus stops.

I’m not sure what you’re saying because you’re not making any sense at all. You’re saying they’re using logic of using more of what? Bus lanes? If congestion is bad due to lights not syncing or whatever then where is the issue with bus lanes? The lanes I recalled on that part aren’t in effect until rush hour times or at least along curbside lanes.  

Yes, buses may run 24/7, but since when does it make sense to have a bus lane when buses are running every 20 minutes or every hour and cars are operating every few seconds and are carrying more people than the buses? You make it sound that every bus is carrying at least 60 passengers at all times. And where is your data that the buses carry more people than all the cars? That is pure conjecture on your part. DOT's data showed that average bus speeds on Kings Highway mostly exceeded 20 mph before the bus lanes. The speed limit is 25. So with stops the buses could not travel any faster with exclusive lanes. The faster trips you are experiencing is solely due to reduced boarding times, not due to the bus lanes. I have seen traffic jams during the off peak outside Beth Israel Hospital since the lanes that were never there before. 

And what you say about motorists is incorrect. Many motorists are also bus riders too, so they also know what bus riders want.

What I am saying is that the logic wanting to add traffic lanes to solve the problem of traffic congestion (unless the added lanes are to eliminate a bottleneck) will not solve congestion. That was already proven by Robert Moses want to increasingly build more expressways to solve congestion. It didn't work.

So the logic of someone saying  let's add more traffic lanes for cars, if it were possible, to solve congestion, and if it's done and when the congestion does not lessen and their solution is to build even more traffic lanes, you would say they were wrong.

But when DOT applies the same logic saying the reason traffic fatalities are not going down due to traffic calming measures, so the solution is to institute more traffic calming measures in the same area, you think that logic is perfectly valid. When something is not working, the solution is not to do more of the same. Understand now? 

[Brillant93]

17 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

Yes, buses may run 24/7, but since when does it make sense to have a bus lane when buses are running every 20 minutes or every hour and cars are operating every few seconds and are carrying more people than the buses? You make it sound that every bus is carrying at least 60 passengers at all times. And where is your data that the buses carry more people than all the cars? That is pure conjecture on your part. DOT's data showed that average bus speeds on Kings Highway mostly exceeded 20 mph before the bus lanes. The speed limit is 25. So with stops the buses could not travel any faster with exclusive lanes. The faster trips you are experiencing is solely due to reduced boarding times, not due to the bus lanes. I have seen traffic jams during the off peak outside Beth Israel Hospital since the lanes that were never there before. 

And what you say about motorists is incorrect. Many motorists are also bus riders too, so they also know what bus riders want.

What I am saying is that the logic wanting to add traffic lanes to solve the problem of traffic congestion (unless the added lanes are to eliminate a bottleneck) will not solve congestion. That was already proven by Robert Moses want to increasingly build more expressways to solve congestion. It didn't work.

So the logic of someone saying  let's add more traffic lanes for cars, if it were possible, to solve congestion, and if it's done and when the congestion does not lessen and their solution is to build even more traffic lanes, you would say they were wrong.

But when DOT applies the same logic saying the reason traffic fatalities are not going down due to traffic calming measures, so the solution is to institute more traffic calming measures in the same area, you think that logic is perfectly valid. When something is not working, the solution is not to do more of the same. Understand now? 

Cars carry more people in nyc? You have to be kidding me. 5 million people in nyc take the bus vs what 1 million to 3 million for personal vehcials? Along that corridor there are thousands of people taking the bus throughout that week. So really how does an average car that is most likely carrying one occupant most of the time is more than a bus that is carrying 10 times the amount of people? Yeah right pure conjuncture on my part. 🙄 

the buses also happen to get to their stops way more faster with the help of lanes and get people to where they’re going faster. There weren’t traffic jams before bus lanes? Off peak? Okay. 

Many motorists are bus riders, off course but a lot more who don’t have cars are too as well. 

I never said anything advocating for what the DOT has done besides bus lanes. I agreed with OP on here about synchronizing lights and so on. What I will not stand by is hearing mororists or even politicians blame any efforts trying to improve efforts to make bus service better for straphangers as bad. 

But really at this point it seems like the issues are more so with things that doesn’t have to with a bus. 

So really I don’t know why you’re even coming for me. 

[P3F]

54 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Cars carry more people in nyc? You have to be kidding me. 5 million people in nyc take the bus vs what 1 million to 3 million for personal vehcials? Along that corridor there are thousands of people taking the bus throughout that week. So really how does an average car that is most likely carrying one occupant most of the time is more than a bus that is carrying 10 times the amount of people? Yeah right pure conjuncture on my part. 🙄 

the buses also happen to get to their stops way more faster with the help of lanes and get people to where they’re going faster. There weren’t traffic jams before bus lanes? Off peak? Okay. 

Many motorists are bus riders, off course but a lot more who don’t have cars are too as well. 

I never said anything advocating for what the DOT has done besides bus lanes. I agreed with OP on here about synchronizing lights and so on. What I will not stand by is hearing mororists or even politicians blame any efforts trying to improve efforts to make bus service better for straphangers as bad. 

But really at this point it seems like the issues are more so with things that doesn’t have to with a bus. 

So really I don’t know why you’re even coming for me. 

Bus lanes are simply not necessary on that section of Kings Highway overnight and on weekends. The DOT originally wasn't going to have them be effective at those times, but changed them to be 24/7 without consulting anyone. Also, the buses use the service road between East 40th Street and Avenue K. In that segment, the bus lanes are NEVER used by any buses at all.

Simply put, if you support that, you make yourself look like a fool.

[BrooklynBus]

19 minutes ago, P3F said:

Bus lanes are simply not necessary on that section of Kings Highway overnight and on weekends. The DOT originally wasn't going to have them be effective at those times, but changed them to be 24/7 without consulting anyone. Also, the buses use the service road between East 40th Street and Avenue K. In that segment, the bus lanes are NEVER used by any buses at all.

Simply put, if you support that, you make yourself look like a fool.

 

1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

Cars carry more people in nyc? You have to be kidding me. 5 million people in nyc take the bus vs what 1 million to 3 million for personal vehcials? Along that corridor there are thousands of people taking the bus throughout that week. So really how does an average car that is most likely carrying one occupant most of the time is more than a bus that is carrying 10 times the amount of people? Yeah right pure conjuncture on my part. 🙄 

the buses also happen to get to their stops way more faster with the help of lanes and get people to where they’re going faster. There weren’t traffic jams before bus lanes? Off peak? Okay. 

Many motorists are bus riders, off course but a lot more who don’t have cars are too as well. 

I never said anything advocating for what the DOT has done besides bus lanes. I agreed with OP on here about synchronizing lights and so on. What I will not stand by is hearing mororists or even politicians blame any efforts trying to improve efforts to make bus service better for straphangers as bad. 

But really at this point it seems like the issues are more so with things that doesn’t have to with a bus. 

So really I don’t know why you’re even coming for me. 

I am coming after you because you are playing with statistics and making up your own numbers. First of all we were talking only about a small portion of Kings Highway for car trips vs bus trips not the entire NYC. 

But since you brought it up, I decided to check out the NYC numbers. 

2 1/4 million daily bus riders or 725 million yearly bus riders, not five million as you claim. Also, a "rider" equals about two passengers so that makes it a little over 1 million people a day assuming no one is making more than two trips daily which of course isn't true. Many make multiple trips. 

Also DOT shows 3.5 million vehicles entering the city daily excluding Manhattan CBD plus 3/4 million into CBD  daily. That doesn't even count the numbers of trips beginning and ending within the city which they don't even measure. So we are already over 4 million car trips. And each car carries 1.3 passengers. So that's over 5 million in cars daily. So without even counting intracity car trips, that is already over twice the number of bus passengers daily. 

And I certainly am not knocking efforts to improve bus service, I wrote a three-part series on how to do that.

http://www.gothamgazette.com/opinion/8099-designing-bus-routes-to-attract-passengers-and-reverse-declining-ridership-part-3

What I object to is distortion of the facts and statistics to make bad ideas appear to be good. 

[Brillant93]

14 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

 

I am coming after you because you are playing with statistics and making up your own numbers. First of all we were talking only about a small portion of Kings Highway for car trips vs bus trips not the entire NYC. 

But since you brought it up, I decided to check out the NYC numbers. 

2 1/4 million daily bus riders or 725 million yearly bus riders, not five million as you claim. Also, a "rider" equals about two passengers so that makes it a little over 1 million people a day assuming no one is making more than two trips daily which of course isn't true. Many make multiple trips. 

Also DOT shows 3.5 million vehicles entering the city daily excluding Manhattan CBD plus 3/4 million into CBD  daily. That doesn't even count the numbers of trips beginning and ending within the city which they don't even measure. So we are already over 4 million car trips. And each car carries 1.3 passengers. So that's over 5 million in cars daily. So without even counting intracity car trips, that is already over twice the number of bus passengers daily. 

And I certainly am not knocking efforts to improve bus service, I wrote a three-part series on how to do that.

http://www.gothamgazette.com/opinion/8099-designing-bus-routes-to-attract-passengers-and-reverse-declining-ridership-part-3

What I object to is distortion of the facts and statistics to make bad ideas appear to be good. 

Sorry I was looking at the wrong catergory in the subway category and I admit that on my part. But to say I was purposely playing with statistics and facts is lie on your end. I never even tried to even claim anything beside about bus lanes.

So okay there are more car trips than bus riders but that still doesn’t get rid of the FACT that buses are slow and one of the main culprits of that is congestion. To even help buses speed up we need bus lanes and other things. We can’t deal with more car traffic in this city. If upgrading buses and it’s structure to help it attract customers it should be a priority. 

[BrooklynBus]

5 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

Sorry I was looking at the wrong catergory in the subway category and I admit that on my part. But to say I was purposely playing with statistics and facts is lie on your end. I never even tried to even claim anything beside about bus lanes.

So okay there are more car trips than bus riders but that still doesn’t get rid of the FACT that buses are slow and one of the main culprits of that is congestion. To even help buses speed up we need bus lanes and other things. We can’t deal with more car traffic in this city. If upgrading buses and it’s structure to help it attract customers it should be a priority. 

Okay, so it was an innocent mistake. No one is denying that congestion is a main culprit for slow buses. And yes we can't deal with more car traffic in this city. No one is denying that either. And yes we want to attract ridership. But changes have to be made sensibly.

There no formulas. Bus lanes sometimes work and sometimes they don't. All I said was in this case the bus lane was wrong. I actually was for the bus lane on the narrow portion of Kings Highway, the one the merchants were opposed to. 

DOT is too lazy to do the work so they don't apply solutions correctly. Banning curb parking in certain areas to speed buses and cars during rush hours is a good idea. But that doesn't mean parking needs to be banned from 4 to 7 in both directions on all the streets chosen. On Cross Bay, it is only necessary in the peak direction and maybe not all the way to 10 AM. Perhaps it should end at 9 or 9:30. 

They need to consider merchants as well as the motorists needs. They act that only bus riders, cyclists and pedestrians matter. 

[Brillant93]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

Okay, so it was an innocent mistake. No one is denying that congestion is a main culprit for slow buses. And yes we can't deal with more car traffic in this city. No one is denying that either. And yes we want to attract ridership. But changes have to be made sensibly.

There no formulas. Bus lanes sometimes work and sometimes they don't. All I said was in this case the bus lane was wrong. I actually was for the bus lane on the narrow portion of Kings Highway, the one the merchants were opposed to. 

DOT is too lazy to do the work so they don't apply solutions correctly. Banning curb parking in certain areas to speed buses and cars during rush hours is a good idea. But that doesn't mean parking needs to be banned from 4 to 7 in both directions on all the streets chosen. On Cross Bay, it is only necessary in the peak direction and maybe not all the way to 10 AM. Perhaps it should end at 9 or 9:30. 

They need to consider merchants as well as the motorists needs. They act that only bus riders, cyclists and pedestrians matter. 

There’s not gaureentee that people will abide by the times bus lanes are in effect. I’ve seen people just park in bus lanes while they were in effect. People don’t care because the nypd doesn’t.

[Brillant93]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

Okay, so it was an innocent mistake. No one is denying that congestion is a main culprit for slow buses. And yes we can't deal with more car traffic in this city. No one is denying that either. And yes we want to attract ridership. But changes have to be made sensibly.

There no formulas. Bus lanes sometimes work and sometimes they don't. All I said was in this case the bus lane was wrong. I actually was for the bus lane on the narrow portion of Kings Highway, the one the merchants were opposed to. 

DOT is too lazy to do the work so they don't apply solutions correctly. Banning curb parking in certain areas to speed buses and cars during rush hours is a good idea. But that doesn't mean parking needs to be banned from 4 to 7 in both directions on all the streets chosen. On Cross Bay, it is only necessary in the peak direction and maybe not all the way to 10 AM. Perhaps it should end at 9 or 9:30. 

They need to consider merchants as well as the motorists needs. They act that only bus riders, cyclists and pedestrians matter. 

There’s not gaureentee that people will abide by the times bus lanes are in effect. I’ve seen people just park in bus lanes while they were in effect. People don’t care because the nypd doesn’t.

[BrooklynBus]

21 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

There’s not gaureentee that people will abide by the times bus lanes are in effect. I’ve seen people just park in bus lanes while they were in effect. People don’t care because the nypd doesn’t.

No one is disagreeing with that statement. 

[B35 via Church]

On 11/27/2018 at 8:11 PM, Lil 57 said:

I feel like whenever SBS is introduced to a corridor they cut local service so much so they can get people on the SBS. The Hylan/Richmond corridor is a great example on that. On Sundays, the S79 runs every 10-12 minutes while the only local counterpart (for Richmond Ave) runs every 30 minutes. On Hylan, the S78 can be very unreliable at any time of the day. Sometimes it's quicker to take the S79 and walk versus taking the S78 directly to your destination due to the unreliability of the S78, even if the walk to/from the S79 is 10 to 15 minutes.  

The S78 went to shit long before the S79 got converted to SBS; I'd say sometime around the early 2000's.... They started tinkering with S78 service to make the S79 more attractive along (that mutual portion of) Hylan Blvd.... SBS made that discrepancy b/w the two routes even worse....

Good for the S79, sucks for the S78....

[BrooklynBus]

On 11/26/2018 at 7:30 PM, Jdog14 said:

 

As far as travel speeds is concerned, for me the buses feel just about the same. Pre SBS buses were hauling ass (some still do). Now with the lanes the buses aren't sharing with traffic as much. 

 

They need to do away with this Vision Zero bullshit. Slowing down traffic to then have people rely on unreliable mass transit is a disaster. 

They are about the same. Read the report. The greatest change is if you ride all the way from 156 Ave to Queens Blvd during the peak . You save a whopping 3 minutes. Every one else save even less tine. A total waste of money. 

[Around the Horn]

On November 27, 2018 at 8:11 PM, Lil 57 said:

I feel like whenever SBS is introduced to a corridor they cut local service so much so they can get people on the SBS. The Hylan/Richmond corridor is a great example on that. On Sundays, the S79 runs every 10-12 minutes while the only local counterpart (for Richmond Ave) runs every 30 minutes. On Hylan, the S78 can be very unreliable at any time of the day. Sometimes it's quicker to take the S79 and walk versus taking the S78 directly to your destination due to the unreliability of the S78, even if the walk to/from the S79 is 10 to 15 minutes.  

The S78 was terrible way before the S79 got SBS. What they should have done was kept a local variant of the S79 to either Hylan and Richmond or the ETC.

[Jdog14]

9 minutes ago, Around the Horn said:

The S78 was terrible way before the S79 got SBS. What they should have done was kept a local variant of the S79 to either Hylan and Richmond or the ETC.

 

Or maybe they need to have permanent shortturns cause the route is so damn long lol

 

[Lil 57]

4 hours ago, Jdog14 said:

 

Or maybe they need to have permanent shortturns cause the route is so damn long lol

 

I'm thinking of splitting the S78 at Richmond Ave all times expect late nights (There isn't enough ridership on the South shore for overnight service and the travel time of the S78 at this hour is comparable to the SIR). A new route between Richmond Ave and Bricktown Mall would run (let's call it the S77 for now). Weekdays between 5:30 AM and 7 PM the S77 would be extended to the New Dorp train station via Hylan Blvd and New Dorp Lane so south shore students that go to the schools in the New Dorp area would still have a one seat ride. During weekdays from 10 AM to 1:30 PM , alternate S77 buses would serve New Dorp.

S77 service would be 10-15 minutes during the rush, 15 during the afternoon (30 for New Dorp service) and 20-30 mins during the evenings. On weekends service would be provided every 30 minutes all day. Overnight service would be provided by the S78 as stated above.

[BrooklynBus]

In April 2015, I told WPIX's Greg Mocker that the Woodhaven SBS was a bad idea and wouldn't succeed.

https://pix11.com/2015/04/28/are-select-bus-routes-the-solution-to-traffic-and-crowded-commutes/

This is what I have to say now. 

http://www.qchron.com/editions/queenswide/is-woodhaven-sbs-a-success-or-a-failure/article_917e155d-1a34-5bdb-93cd-5990f73a2a83.html

Here is DOT's report so you can read their nonsense for yourself:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/brt/downloads/pdf/brt-woodhaven-after-fall2018.pdf