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Union Tpke

Why Your Subway Train Might Start Moving Faster

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1 minute ago, kosciusko said:

Why is NB Franklin avenue to Atlantic Avenue and the Joralemon tunnel on the (4)(5) so much slower that SB?

That's largely on a downward slope, and gravity loves to pull stuff down. You can probably guess what would happen if left unchecked, especially in the transition from Eastern Parkway to Flatbush Avenue. The track layout up to Nevins Street certainly does no favors. (As an aside, I would certainly like for this section to be faster.)

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

Why is NB Franklin avenue to Atlantic Avenue and the Joralemon tunnel on the (4)(5) so much slower that SB?

Timers. Franklin-Atlantic nb is graced by, in order, one shot GT25s (or are they 35s — I can’t remember), 2 shot GT35s, and a one shot GT20, all of which (but especially the 1 shots) absolutely slaughter speed over that stretch, whereas southbound is untimed. In Joralemon, both directions have 2 shot GT35s, but the timed section of the tunnel is significantly longer NB than SB. 

To give you a benchmark of just how bad this stretch is, runtime variability nb between Franklin and Atlantic is in fact so large that it rivals Rogers dumbf**kery in service impact. Crazy what bad signals can do...

Edited by RR503
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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, RR503 said:

Timers. Franklin-Atlantic nb is graced by, in order, one shot GT25s (or are they 35s — I can’t remember), 2 shot GT35s, and a one shot GT20, all of which (but especially the 1 shots) absolutely slaughter speed over that stretch, whereas southbound is untimed. In Joralemon, both directions have 2 shot GT35s, but the timed section of the tunnel is significantly longer NB than SB. 

Yeah I understand that there are timers in place NB by why are they there. Particularly in the tunnel. 

Edited by kosciusko

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On 5/17/2019 at 9:08 PM, Lex said:

Did they install CWR?

What is CWR?

On 6/12/2019 at 10:43 PM, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

Looks like dispatching makes a world of difference, good decision to use WDs instead of a hold outside the station. 

On another note I thought WDs were on their way out

What are WDs?

On 6/12/2019 at 10:51 PM, RR503 said:

WDs are generally not installed in new interlockings, and it seems they're being phased out in favor of DGTs (which is what has replaced their functionality at newer rebuilds). 

What are DGTs?

Sorry for sounding like a newbie lol

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, checkmatechamp13 said:

What is CWR?

What are WDs?

What are DGTs?

Sorry for sounding like a newbie lol

CWR is Continuous welded rail

WDs are Wheel Detectors, or "timers" that measure the speed of the train by axles as opposed to just time. 

DGTs are Diverging Grade Timers. Active only when a diverging route is set on a switch ahead. 

Someone please add more/correct me if Im wrong

By the way I saw the same WDs active at QP today with no (R) in sight as my (E) was departing

Edited by RestrictOnTheHanger
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

By the way I saw the same WDs active at QP today with no (R) in sight as my (E) was departing

I plan to spend an hour or so observing evening Queens Plaza ops this week — hope to catch this! 

2 hours ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

WDs are Wheel Detectors, or "timers" that measure the speed of the train by axles as opposed to just time. 

The only thing I’d add is that WDs were originally installed to do what DGTs do today — protecting diverging moves over switches. They were the policy action that followed Union Square. 

Edited by RR503
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10 hours ago, RR503 said:

plan to spend an hour or so observing evening Queens Plaza ops this week — hope to catch this! 

You should be able to see it thruout the day, yesterday I passed thru around 130pm

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1 minute ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

You should be able to see it thruout the day, yesterday I passed thru around 130pm

Would assume as much, but I’m looking for info on merge performance so rush it is. 

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19 hours ago, kosciusko said:

Yeah I understand that there are timers in place NB by why are they there. Particularly in the tunnel. 

I already addressed that.

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19 hours ago, kosciusko said:

Yeah I understand that there are timers in place NB by why are they there. Particularly in the tunnel. 

There's an important distinction that should be made here: there is no hard and fast rule that says that you have to have timers on curves and downhills. It may well be good to install them, yes, but it's also entirely possible to design a signal system that allows trains to fly unchecked off steep grades -- see, for example, the southbound (A) around 14, or the express track on the lower Culver line, or northbound Queens Boulevard express. It all just goes back to the issue of control lines: how much stopping distance are you providing for each signal, how fast can trains pass that signal, and how fast can they stop? 

Regardless, the issue on the nb Franklin-Atlantic express isn't so much the existence of GTs, but their positioning and type. The vast majority of GTs regulating speeds over 20mph or over long(er) stretches of track are 2 shots, as they give ops more room for error and thus allow better track speeds. This isn't true on Franklin-Atlantic. That stretch is ruined by a series of 3 one shots around the curve at Grand Army Plaza. If I'm not mistaken, those signals used to be 2 shots (@Trainmaster5 am I correct on this?), but the second shot was removed, if I had to guess because of a control line (stopping distance) issue. So now we have a variability and slowness generator. That's problem one. Problem two is the one shot in the Atlantic-Barclays station itself. That signal wrecks station entrance speeds (big capacity effect) and once again contributes to variability. Thrown in the mix too are a set of 2 shot GT35s controlling the downgrade into the station. All timers generate variability to some extent, but whatever effect these ones have is totally upstaged by their one shot companions.

On a more positive note, all the one shots on this stretch (as well as the one entering Boro Hall) have had countdown aspects installed, which should somewhat help with their operation. Issue is that given the distance between signals around Grand Army Plaza, the numbers on the countdown aren't immediately visible when you enter the timing section -- they become more useful when adjusting your speed as you approach the signal. 

As for the tube, it has long been NYCT policy to limit trains to 35mph (in most cases) under rivers. I'm honestly unsure as to why this is true. My best guess would be a clearance thing: they don't want to let trains go too fast through the tight clearance environment of a river tube, given the potential for sway. As for why the timers extend so much further nb than they do sb, track geometry? Again, I'm really not totally sure, but it's always been my impression that the nb tube has some weird vertical geometry things going on that its southbound companion does not. 

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3 hours ago, RR503 said:

As for the tube, it has long been NYCT policy to limit trains to 35mph (in most cases) under rivers.

Really? I go under the river every day and the lines seems to be fastest in the tubes. 60th street, York Street, SB Joralemon, and Canarsie are quite fast. I'm not sure about the others.

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7 minutes ago, kosciusko said:

Really? I go under the river every day and the lines seems to be fastest in the tubes. 60th street, York Street, SB Joralemon, and Canarsie are quite fast. I'm not sure about the others.

Should have been clearer: most tubes have at least some portion of their downhill component timed to 35mph. 60th is an exception — that’s GT45 southbound and GT50 northbound (?). The others you mention just have shorter segments of 35, and then you can wrap it up into the remaining descending/ascending grade and have enough accel time before ascent starts eating your speed. 

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1 hour ago, kosciusko said:

Really? I go under the river every day and the lines seems to be fastest in the tubes. 60th street, York Street, SB Joralemon, and Canarsie are quite fast. I'm not sure about the others.

 You probably haven't taken too many RFW rides in the past from the early '80s -about '90 lol. The Joralemon, especially s/b, had many scrape marks on the ceiling before the trains were slowed down. The overpass at the East 180th St station used to provide clear evidence of this when we ran SMEE equipment that was laid up in the yard. Some of the older (4) SMEE cars didn't have the power to make the climb from Bowling Green and Borough Hall and had to be looped at the Green but our (5) equipment didn't have that problem back then. Carry on.

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Is 63rd an exception to the rule considering it’s more open and newer design? Trains seem to fly into Roosevelt Island at no less than 40mph.

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38 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Is 63rd an exception to the rule considering it’s more open and newer design? Trains seem to fly into Roosevelt Island at no less than 40mph.

Yes. The only GTs in the river portion are southbound between 21st and Roosevelt 

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14 hours ago, RR503 said:

Yes. The only GTs in the river portion are southbound between 21st and Roosevelt 

Is that GT there because of the station or the switch after it? I think theres only 1 one shot aside from possible ST

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, RestrictOnTheHanger said:

Is that GT there because of the station or the switch after it? I think theres only 1 one shot aside from possible ST

That was an error on my part. I should have clarified: I meant Roosevelt Island, not Roosevelt Avenue — there are plenty of GTs between 21 and Roosevelt in both directions. Dunno why the ones under the river exist. That area was (partially) resignaled around 2000, so I’d imagine this was probably by design.  

Edited by RR503
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On 6/16/2019 at 4:54 PM, RR503 said:

That was an error on my part. I should have clarified: I meant Roosevelt Island, not Roosevelt Avenue — there are plenty of GTs between 21 and Roosevelt in both directions. Dunno why the ones under the river exist. That area was (partially) resignaled around 2000, so I’d imagine this was probably by design.  

Thats what I meant too, the single one shot GT is the only one in the tube between 21st and Lex-63rd in either direction, so it seems a bit out of place.

On another note, the DGTs at Roosevelt Ave seem to have been looked at. Got on a s/b (E) via the local (unplanned reroute) this morning. Speed was not much slower than normal into Roosevelt Ave, so I was a bit surprised when the (E) crossed over to the express track. Ever since the resignalling a couple of years ago the DGTs they put in would force trains to crawl thru the station up to the homeball, but not today. 

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Posted (edited)
On ‎6‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 5:45 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

 You probably haven't taken too many RFW rides in the past from the early '80s -about '90 lol. The Joralemon, especially s/b, had many scrape marks on the ceiling before the trains were slowed down. The overpass at the East 180th St station used to provide clear evidence of this when we ran SMEE equipment that was laid up in the yard. Some of the older (4) SMEE cars didn't have the power to make the climb from Bowling Green and Borough Hall and had to be looped at the Green but our (5) equipment didn't have that problem back then. Carry on.

I’m surprised they had that much more trouble on the (4) versus the (5) getting through Joralemon. I thought they ran A-Division trains made up of pretty much everything from R12 to R33 back in the early 80s. At least that’s what I remembered seeing, especially on the (2) and (5), which were my home lines back then. Though I do remember seeing R17s (my favorite older A-Division SMEE cars) mostly on the (4), with the occasional R21/22 equipment. 

Edited by T to Dyre Avenue

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48 minutes ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I’m surprised they had that much more trouble on the (4) versus the (5) getting through Joralemon. I thought they ran A-Division trains made up of pretty much everything from R12 to R33 back in the early 80s. At least that’s what I remembered seeing, especially on the (2) and (5), which were my home lines back then. Though I do remember seeing R17s (my favorite older A-Division SMEE cars) mostly on the (4), with the occasional R21/22 equipment. 

The (5) is much more likely to be curtailed, and it has a history of pooling equipment. The (4) is in no such position.

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1 hour ago, T to Dyre Avenue said:

I’m surprised they had that much more trouble on the (4) versus the (5) getting through Joralemon. I thought they ran A-Division trains made up of pretty much everything from R12 to R33 back in the early 80s. At least that’s what I remembered seeing, especially on the (2) and (5), which were my home lines back then. Though I do remember seeing R17s (my favorite older A-Division SMEE cars) mostly on the (4), with the occasional R21/22 equipment. 

There was a reason why the (4) got the R62 fleet rather than the (5) or (6) lines back then. Not the only reason but a major consideration IIRC. My friend who had access to the CED stats always asked me WTF was the issue with the Jerome line. CED had an office next to Command Center at Jay St and each train that reported an issue was noted with the M/M and the C/Rs name and pass number. When he was assigned there certain cars and crew numbers would pop up two or three times a week. After investigating the issue it was determined that the crews were not at fault but rather the equipment itself. As to the post from Lex, the (2) and the (5) didn’t share fleets back in those days as a rule. As far as mixed consists back then the (3) ran with three different kinds of equipment in a nine car train and never had the problems with propulsion the way the (4) did in my experience . Of course I was lucky enough to make maybe 10 trips total in almost 30 years on the (4) . I wouldn’t pick a job on that line if I lived next to the terminal. Carry on.

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15 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

As to the post from Lex, the (2) and the (5) didn’t share fleets back in those days as a rule. As far as mixed consists back then the (3) ran with three different kinds of equipment in a nine car train and never had the problems with propulsion the way the (4) did in my experience . Of course I was lucky enough to make maybe 10 trips total in almost 30 years on the (4) . I wouldn’t pick a job on that line if I lived next to the terminal. Carry on.

Duly noted, and I can definitely understand the sentiment.

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https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-subway-speed-limits-supervisors-mta-train-operators-20190620-7xjhbces35gxxjarl3vtm2xouu-story.html

Quote

New, higher speed limits are no worry for subway crews fearing discipline as they try to move their trains faster.

Subway supervisors were ordered Thursday to ease up on filing formal complaints against train crews that accidentally slip up as they try to hit the higher speed limits.

The MTA has boosted subway speeds at 90 locations over the last six months. Union officials said that train operators have been hesitant to put the pedal to the metal for fear of being written up for going too fast — which they worry would inadvertently trip trains’ emergency brakes.

Transport Workers Union Local 100 officials described the memo as a win in their years-long fight to have the MTA ease up on its disciplinary procedures.

“They want more efficient operation,” said Eric Loegel, Local 100′s head of trains. “We’ve argued that’s not possible if they throw the book at us for every little mistake and continue this culture of fear. This is a win-win.”

This is really important. Speed changes will come to naught if crews are too afraid to take advantage of them/do so too inconsistently. I hope they review past disciplinary actions, too, given how many crews were wrongfully punished for hitting miscalibrated timers...

 

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8 hours ago, RR503 said:

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny-subway-speed-limits-supervisors-mta-train-operators-20190620-7xjhbces35gxxjarl3vtm2xouu-story.html

This is really important. Speed changes will come to naught if crews are too afraid to take advantage of them/do so too inconsistently. I hope they review past disciplinary actions, too, given how many crews were wrongfully punished for hitting miscalibrated timers...

 

I'm more confident that the Sun will rise in the West tomorrow than any review or clemency for past discipline. The NYCT has a very assembly line discipline where the machine chews people up with very little regard to the context, and the language in the leniency is vague and it doesn't inspire my confidence. (I'm not a train Operator, but its the family trade). 

Even as the Timers are adjusted in some areas, you also have to consider the equipment operating the route, from my observation there is not a tight standard on the speedometers on the older equipment. Ask yourself this, would you risk your employment at one of the last good jobs in the state on this Speedometer.

https://ibb.co/kBkzg3x

Now make that ponder that in the context of decades of the Agency responding to Timers being wrong and bogus speedos being "lalala I can't hear you, lalala you should've had your train under control"

A vaguely worded piece of paper is not going to inspire much in the way of change in my opinion.

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17 minutes ago, Jsunflyguy said:

I'm more confident that the Sun will rise in the West tomorrow than any review or clemency for past discipline. The NYCT has a very assembly line discipline where the machine chews people up with very little regard to the context, and the language in the leniency is vague and it doesn't inspire my confidence. (I'm not a train Operator, but its the family trade). 

Even as the Timers are adjusted in some areas, you also have to consider the equipment operating the route, from my observation there is not a tight standard on the speedometers on the older equipment. Ask yourself this, would you risk your employment at one of the last good jobs in the state on this Speedometer.

https://ibb.co/kBkzg3x

Now make that ponder that in the context of decades of the Agency responding to Timers being wrong and bogus speedos being "lalala I can't hear you, lalala you should've had your train under control"

A vaguely worded piece of paper is not going to inspire much in the way of change in my opinion.

Oh, I by no means think that this bulletin is some sort of panacea. But the fact that this issue is so much as heard by upper management is a massive change from years past — many would have expressed the same doubts about speed review when mgmt announced that program a year ago. I have yet to give up all hope in this realm.

To the issue of speedometers: yes, it’s a problem. But it’s prevalence seems to be less so than in the past — I’ve never heard of a NTT with speedometers that are more than 1 or 2 mph off from real (normal disclaimers about anecdata, of course, apply).  

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