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Deucey

Subway history question - B Division

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So, excluding the period when the Manhattan Bridge was closed, before (V) and (M) were the fourth 6 Av service, was it always (B)(D)(F) that ran, or was there a different fourth service on the line?

Same thing with BMT Broadway - was there another local service before (W)?

(I'm only asking about the period after double letter services went away. And this is just for trivia's sake.)

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12 minutes ago, Deucey said:

So, excluding the period when the Manhattan Bridge was closed, before (V) and (M) were the fourth 6 Av service, was it always (B)(D)(F) that ran, or was there a different fourth service on the line?

Same thing with BMT Broadway - was there another local service before (W)?

(I'm only asking about the period after double letter services went away. And this is just for trivia's sake.)

 

The (orangeQ) ran on 6 Av until 2001

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21 minutes ago, Deucey said:

So, excluding the period when the Manhattan Bridge was closed, before (V) and (M) were the fourth 6 Av service, was it always (B)(D)(F) that ran, or was there a different fourth service on the line?

Same thing with BMT Broadway - was there another local service before (W)?

(I'm only asking about the period after double letter services went away. And this is just for trivia's sake.)

If you’re excluding the Manhattan Bridge rebuild era, the last time supplementary local services ran on 6th and Broadway were the KK and (EE), which ran on the respective corridors from Chrystie until 1976. Funnily enough, before the death of the (EE), Broadway had been fully deinterlined — a change for which many here advocate.  

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9 hours ago, RR503 said:

If you’re excluding the Manhattan Bridge rebuild era, the last time supplementary local services ran on 6th and Broadway were the KK and (EE), which ran on the respective corridors from Chrystie until 1976. Funnily enough, before the death of the (EE), Broadway had been fully deinterlined — a change for which many here advocate.  

Broadway needs to be de-interlined. Way to many trains crossing in front of each other is what holds that line back. 

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6 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Broadway needs to be de-interlined. Way to many trains crossing in front of each other is what holds that line back. 

Completely agree. Playing Uber on high capacity transit is inexcusable. 

The only thing holding back (N) to 96/more (W) right now is a lack of cars. 

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2 hours ago, RR503 said:

Completely agree. Playing Uber on high capacity transit is inexcusable. 

The only thing holding back (N) to 96/more (W) right now is a lack of cars. 

So why wasn't the pre-1986 (R) service pattern (R) to Coney Island and (N) brown (M) to Bay Ridge?

If (R) needed a Depot...

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12 minutes ago, Deucey said:

So why wasn't the pre-1986 (R) service pattern (R) to Coney Island and (N) brown (M) to Bay Ridge?

If (R) needed a Depot...

I believe the (R) was part time back then so it wouldn't have worked (but someone else can correct me if I'm wrong). I remember during 2001-2004 when the (N) was a shuttle late nights and weekends, Sea Beach riders didn't like that and they've had 24/7 Manhattan service ever since.

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Nope. Prior to 1990, the #2 / (R) was a 24/7 line as it was the primary Broadway line and the main service to Astoria, not counting the period between 1961 and '67 where weekday service ran to Forest Hills. Even after the switch with the (N) and its loss of primary status, the (R) remained a 24/7 line until service from 179 Street ended during the Bridge closure.

To further answer the question, prior to Chrystie St, 6th Avenue only had three services running at any given time due to the way the line was built. With the express tracks terminating at 34th Street, only the D and F would continue past Herald Square, the former down to Coney Island via Culver and the latter to either Broadway-Lafayette St or 2 Avenue depending on the timeframe. The original BB line only operated during rush hours when the AA did not.

Broadway pre-Chrystie however, was a different animal entirely. There were always at least four services operating on that branch. On the express tracks, there were the full-time #3 via West End (see the 2001-'04 (W)) and the #4 via Sea Beach (today's weekday (N)), both of which terminated at Times Square and later 57 Street. On the local side, there was the full-time #2 (today's (R), but operating to Ditmars Blvd). Along with those, there were three versions of the #1 line in service at the time: 1) the express variant on weekdays only, operating like the old <Q> service from 2001 as a full express to Brighton Beach; 2) the local version which operated similar to the pre-2017 (Q), except via Whitehall St and to Forest Hills, also weekdays only; and 3) the off-hours one most similar to today's service, running express on Broadway via the Bridge and local in Brooklyn. That last one would begin running local in the '60s as part of apparent service cuts that would also see express service reduced to only the #1 and #4 outside of peak periods.

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4 hours ago, Lance said:

To further answer the question, prior to Chrystie St, 6th Avenue only had three services running at any given time due to the way the line was built. With the express tracks terminating at 34th Street, only the D and F would continue past Herald Square, the former down to Coney Island via Culver and the latter to either Broadway-Lafayette St or 2 Avenue depending on the timeframe. The original BB line only operated during rush hours when the AA did not.

To be fair, this being the IND, they could have probably managed to turn all CPW service at 34/6 if they so wished. The issue was not so much that but the fact that until 57th was built, locals were limited by the merge with the (E) at 5/53; there was no other way off the corridor to the north. 

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9 hours ago, RR503 said:

Completely agree. Playing Uber on high capacity transit is inexcusable. 

The only thing holding back (N) to 96/more (W) right now is a lack of cars. 

Can't you try the (R) to Astoria and the (W) to Forest Hills? Here are some good reasons:

  • Astoria has greater demand
  • A great source of (R) unreliability is from QBL
  • QBL local is similar to the (R) in Brooklyn in that many transfer, so 10-15 tph (W) and the (M) would be adequate
  • It would keep full-time local service to Astoria while the (W) could be replaced by the (M) on weekends/nights

The only problem in this is that the (R) would lose its yard, but this could be remedied with the conversion of 36th-38th or a LGA extension with a yard on ConEd property. 

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36 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Can't you try the (R) to Astoria and the (W) to Forest Hills? Here are some good reasons:

  • Astoria has greater demand
  • A great source of (R) unreliability is from QBL
  • QBL local is similar to the (R) in Brooklyn in that many transfer, so 10-15 tph (W) and the (M) would be adequate
  • It would keep full-time local service to Astoria while the (W) could be replaced by the (M) on weekends/nights

The only problem in this is that the (R) would lose its yard, but this could be remedied with the conversion of 36th-38th or a LGA extension with a yard on ConEd property. 

Beyond the last point, I'm not following how this is substantially different/better. The whole idea of Broadway deinterlining is predicated on the notion that the (W)'s frequency would be doubled to compensate for the loss of the (N) (so what's up with point 1?). I'm also of the opinion that if QB Local was run at frequencies that matched the services it merges into at either end (so run both (M) and (R) at 15tph, contingent on Forest Hills pulling itself out of the stone age), its reliability would significantly improve -- remember, they are programming gaps into the schedule to compensate for those imbalances. 

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1 hour ago, RR503 said:

Beyond the last point, I'm not following how this is substantially different/better. The whole idea of Broadway deinterlining is predicated on the notion that the (W)'s frequency would be doubled to compensate for the loss of the (N) (so what's up with point 1?). I'm also of the opinion that if QB Local was run at frequencies that matched the services it merges into at either end (so run both (M) and (R) at 15tph, contingent on Forest Hills pulling itself out of the stone age), its reliability would significantly improve -- remember, they are programming gaps into the schedule to compensate for those imbalances. 

If you were to send the (W) to Forest Hills then I would actually just extend it and the (M) to 179th assuming the (W) stays at Whitehall or runs to 9th Av... it would eliminate the FHills conga, speed up Hillside commutes, and rid the (F) of that awful merge at 75th. Unlike the (R) it would not be a problem since the run would be shorter.

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27 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

If you were to send the (W) to Forest Hills then I would actually just extend it and the (M) to 179th assuming the (W) stays at Whitehall or runs to 9th Av... it would eliminate the FHills conga, speed up Hillside commutes, and rid the (F) of that awful merge at 75th. Unlike the (R) it would not be a problem since the run would be shorter.

Forest Hills is a problem only insofar as fumigation exists; get rid of that, and it's completely capable of turning 30tph, and indeed has done so in the past.

The (F) merge is a similar sort of issue. It's bad today solely because the signals that govern it were designed/calibrated terribly. To fix the merge, you fix that, not the service patterns. And FWIW, moving the (F) to the express tracks only moves the merge to Van Wyck, which, sure, is D20 in both directions (vs. D15 and D20 for 75th), but preserves a vector for merge related dumba$$sery on the part of the MTA. The only way to ameliorate the issue completely would be to send all locals to 179 and all expresses to Jamaica, which, beyond being impossible (see Archer terminal cap issues) would go over as well as open sewers with Hillside riders. 

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9 hours ago, Lance said:

Nope. Prior to 1990, the #2 / (R) was a 24/7 line as it was the primary Broadway line and the main service to Astoria, not counting the period between 1961 and '67 where weekday service ran to Forest Hills. Even after the switch with the (N) and its loss of primary status, the (R) remained a 24/7 line until service from 179 Street ended during the Bridge closure.

To further answer the question, prior to Chrystie St, 6th Avenue only had three services running at any given time due to the way the line was built. With the express tracks terminating at 34th Street, only the D and F would continue past Herald Square, the former down to Coney Island via Culver and the latter to either Broadway-Lafayette St or 2 Avenue depending on the timeframe. The original BB line only operated during rush hours when the AA did not.

Broadway pre-Chrystie however, was a different animal entirely. There were always at least four services operating on that branch. On the express tracks, there were the full-time #3 via West End (see the 2001-'04 (W)) and the #4 via Sea Beach (today's weekday (N)), both of which terminated at Times Square and later 57 Street. On the local side, there was the full-time #2 (today's (R), but operating to Ditmars Blvd). Along with those, there were three versions of the #1 line in service at the time: 1) the express variant on weekdays only, operating like the old <Q> service from 2001 as a full express to Brighton Beach; 2) the local version which operated similar to the pre-2017 (Q), except via Whitehall St and to Forest Hills, also weekdays only; and 3) the off-hours one most similar to today's service, running express on Broadway via the Bridge and local in Brooklyn. That last one would begin running local in the '60s as part of apparent service cuts that would also see express service reduced to only the #1 and #4 outside of peak periods.

1961-67 IIRC BMT Broadway had this

2 Broadway locals- Fourth Ave (R) and Brighton- (QT) ,(QB)  tunnel or Bridge after the rush

2 Broadway expresses- Sea Beach (N)  and Brighton (Q)  plus

1 Broadway Express- West End T from Astoria during the rush hours only

The (N) and (Q) originated at 57-7th toward the mid 60"s but there was a time when the (N) or the Brighton QT went to Forest Hills

11/9/65, the night of the first blackout I experienced, this was the service pattern in effect.

Hope this helps some. Old folk's memories sometimes fail to compute. Carry on.

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39 minutes ago, Trainmaster5 said:

1961-67 IIRC BMT Broadway had this

2 Broadway locals- Fourth Ave (R) and Brighton- (QT) ,(QB)  tunnel or Bridge after the rush

2 Broadway expresses- Sea Beach (N)  and Brighton (Q)  plus

1 Broadway Express- West End T from Astoria during the rush hours only

The (N) and (Q) originated at 57-7th toward the mid 60"s but there was a time when the (N) or the Brighton QT went to Forest Hills

11/9/65, the night of the first blackout I experienced, this was the service pattern in effect.

Hope this helps some. Old folk's memories sometimes fail to compute. Carry on.

You are right.

I was on a Queens-bound T under the East River at the moment of the 1965 blackout.

Edited by Italianstallion

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Never heard of the (N) going to Forest Hills before 1976.
The QT went to Forest Hills from the opening of the 60th St. cut in 1955, until the service changes of 1961, then it was the (RR) (like now), until Chrystie St.

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In reading through most of the posts about what went to Astoria and what went to Forest Hills after the 11th Street connection, I find that Eric B's is the correct one. I will verify EricB's statement as I was coming home from the World's Fair one night and changed trains at Queensboro Plaza. The conductor on that train was a person that I knew and he lived and owned a store in Brighton Beach. He always had a Brighton Line  run leaving Coney Island around 7 PM during the week.

The Brighton Local went to Forest Hills between 1955 - 1961 and it was the Brighton Local via Tunnel. The first Brighton Local via Bridge started from Coney Island after the last Brighton Express left Brighton Beach at 659 PM.

The R went to Astoria after Chrystie Street and it was at that time that the line got the R-16's with the pasted ASTORIA signs as the R/16's never had a roll sign for Astoria.  Transferring the R/16's to that line was a colossal mistake as they should have been placed on the QJ line for which the cars were better suited.

A word about the QJ train as I took it many times from 168th Street to Coney Island. When the R/27's ran, it was pretty good but as soon as an R/9 was put in at East New York, then the line changed dramatically. I would see the Brighton Line Coney Island platform devoid of trains and then a R/9 would come rolling in and behind it at least 3-4 QJ's coming in and leaving quickly.

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On 12/21/2018 at 10:30 AM, Eric B said:

Never heard of the (N) going to Forest Hills before 1976.
The QT went to Forest Hills from the opening of the 60th St. cut in 1955, until the service changes of 1961, then it was the (RR) (like now), until Chrystie St.

Thanks for the correction.  I don't know why I said(N) to Forest Hills when it had to be a local coming through the cut. The Sea Beach always terminated at 57-7th.

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On 12/20/2018 at 12:45 PM, Lance said:

Nope. Prior to 1990, the #2 / (R) was a 24/7 line as it was the primary Broadway line and the main service to Astoria, not counting the period between 1961 and '67 where weekday service ran to Forest Hills. Even after the switch with the (N) and its loss of primary status, the (R) remained a 24/7 line until service from 179 Street ended during the Bridge closure.

To further answer the question, prior to Chrystie St, 6th Avenue only had three services running at any given time due to the way the line was built. With the express tracks terminating at 34th Street, only the D and F would continue past Herald Square, the former down to Coney Island via Culver and the latter to either Broadway-Lafayette St or 2 Avenue depending on the timeframe. The original BB line only operated during rush hours when the AA did not.

Broadway pre-Chrystie however, was a different animal entirely. There were always at least four services operating on that branch. On the express tracks, there were the full-time #3 via West End (see the 2001-'04 (W)) and the #4 via Sea Beach (today's weekday (N)), both of which terminated at Times Square and later 57 Street. On the local side, there was the full-time #2 (today's (R), but operating to Ditmars Blvd). Along with those, there were three versions of the #1 line in service at the time: 1) the express variant on weekdays only, operating like the old <Q> service from 2001 as a full express to Brighton Beach; 2) the local version which operated similar to the pre-2017 (Q), except via Whitehall St and to Forest Hills, also weekdays only; and 3) the off-hours one most similar to today's service, running express on Broadway via the Bridge and local in Brooklyn. That last one would begin running local in the '60s as part of apparent service cuts that would also see express service reduced to only the #1 and #4 outside of peak periods.

And the BB terminated at 34 Street.

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On 12/20/2018 at 10:57 PM, Trainmaster5 said:

1961-67 IIRC BMT Broadway had this

2 Broadway locals- Fourth Ave (R) and Brighton- (QT) ,(QB)  tunnel or Bridge after the rush

2 Broadway expresses- Sea Beach (N)  and Brighton (Q)  plus

1 Broadway Express- West End T from Astoria during the rush hours only

The (N) and (Q) originated at 57-7th toward the mid 60"s but there was a time when the (N) or the Brighton QT went to Forest Hills

11/9/65, the night of the first blackout I experienced, this was the service pattern in effect.

Hope this helps some. Old folk's memories sometimes fail to compute. Carry on.

Non rush hours, the T ran as the TT. The northern terminus part time was 36 Street in Brooklyn. Think it ran further north at times but can’t remember right now. 

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1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

Non rush hours, the T ran as the TT. The northern terminus part time was 36 Street in Brooklyn. Think it ran further north at times but can’t remember right now. 

TT ran to Chambers through the Montague tunnel and terminated. This was a midday operation .It relayed north of the station, reversed, and headed back south bound.  There was a train or two that followed the north bound route through the tunnel in the PM rush but I it continued north from Chambers and over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge and back to Brooklyn. I don't recall those trains being signed up as TT trains however. The TT and T used R32 cars IIRC  and , as you pointed out, rush hours meant the trains ran to Astoria as a Broadway express and back to Bay Parkway or maybe Stillwell. 

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On 12/20/2018 at 12:45 PM, Lance said:

Nope. Prior to 1990, the #2 / (R) was a 24/7 line as it was the primary Broadway line and the main service to Astoria, not counting the period between 1961 and '67 where weekday service ran to Forest Hills. Even after the switch with the (N) and its loss of primary status, the (R) remained a 24/7 line until service from 179 Street ended during the Bridge closure.

To further answer the question, prior to Chrystie St, 6th Avenue only had three services running at any given time due to the way the line was built. With the express tracks terminating at 34th Street, only the D and F would continue past Herald Square, the former down to Coney Island via Culver and the latter to either Broadway-Lafayette St or 2 Avenue depending on the timeframe. The original BB line only operated during rush hours when the AA did not.

Broadway pre-Chrystie however, was a different animal entirely. There were always at least four services operating on that branch. On the express tracks, there were the full-time #3 via West End (see the 2001-'04 (W)) and the #4 via Sea Beach (today's weekday (N)), both of which terminated at Times Square and later 57 Street. On the local side, there was the full-time #2 (today's (R), but operating to Ditmars Blvd). Along with those, there were three versions of the #1 line in service at the time: 1) the express variant on weekdays only, operating like the old <Q> service from 2001 as a full express to Brighton Beach; 2) the local version which operated similar to the pre-2017 (Q), except via Whitehall St and to Forest Hills, also weekdays only; and 3) the off-hours one most similar to today's service, running express on Broadway via the Bridge and local in Brooklyn. That last one would begin running local in the '60s as part of apparent service cuts that would also see express service reduced to only the #1 and #4 outside of peak periods.

Why was rush hour (R) service to 179th St cut?

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1 hour ago, Trainmaster5 said:

TT ran to Chambers through the Montague tunnel and terminated. This was a midday operation .It relayed north of the station, reversed, and headed back south bound.  There was a train or two that followed the north bound route through the tunnel in the PM rush but I it continued north from Chambers and over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge and back to Brooklyn. I don't recall those trains being signed up as TT trains however. The TT and T used R32 cars IIRC  and , as you pointed out, rush hours meant the trains ran to Astoria as a Broadway express and back to Bay Parkway or maybe Stillwell. 

I don't think any of the TT's looped back like that; that was the 4th Ave. specials (and the Brighton was the reverse of that). A few TT's continued north and laid up at ENY, and then returned in the PM. (these were the only trains through routed from the BMT South to the East, before Chrystie St).

The Culver before '59 looped as well, and 4th Ave. had their specials m return via Culver until then, and then the West End afterwards, so that's most likely what you were thinking of, and they wouldn't be TT's; they would use "S" or even "M" if using 27-32's.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Eric B said:

I don't think any of the TT's looped back like that; that was the 4th Ave. specials (and the Brighton was the reverse of that). A few TT's continued north and laid up at ENY, and then returned in the PM. (these were the only trains through routed from the BMT South to the East, before Chrystie St).

The Culver before '59 looped as well, and 4th Ave. had their specials m return via Culver until then, and then the West End afterwards, so that's most likely what you were thinking of, and they wouldn't be TT's; they would use "S" or even "M" if using 27-32's.

Maybe I didn’t word it correctly but I know that the TT didn’t loop back and the train(s) that did loop in the pm weren’t R32s. I asked the forum some years back if anyone had a picture of the massive overhead sign on the north bound platform at Chambers  and someone was nice enough to provide one. It normally read “ via Williamsburg Bridge” but when the special was due the “via Manhattan Bridge “ portion would light up. Gotta remember that the only regular traffic on the Bridge was the (N) and (Q) on the north side so when I happened to see a train on the opposite side one day it piqued my interest and I was determined to ride that train. First time I rode it I went to Ninth Avenue and transferred to the Culver shuttle. It was easy to be a transit explorer when I had a bus and subway pass😁. Now I’m a retiree with a free pass and no time limits and I have no real desire for exploration. Of course the RFW was a big part of the fun back then. FWIW at Eighth Avenue on the Canarsie there was a smaller sign that had to Canarsie or to Lefferts Avenue as destination options. The BMT with it’s myriad service patterns really had informative signage at it’s terminals and major transfer locations. Carry on.

Edited by Trainmaster5
Added some information

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