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A Breakdown of How and Why Farebeating Is So Prevalent


Via Garibaldi 8

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29 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's become a big focus because the agency claims it's a problem. My position is that IF it is that big of a problem, then they need to 1) address it in some fashion to reduce such a deficit, and 2) stop asking the paying riders to pay more for their incompetence.  To me the fact that they're only now claiming it's a problem is just an example of an overall bigger problem, which is that they can't get their house in order, not that I somehow think that THIS is the reason why they're hurting so bad.  

By spending so much time discussing this, though, you’re indulging their misdirection. No one would say that farebeating is the driver of the transit crisis, or even on the list of top 10 drivers. It’s merely something that happened in parallel that the agency is trying to use to distract. Yes, it would be good to reduce rates (and I see changes in enforcement are starting that), but the bulk of that effort will have to wait for a new turnstile design. Until then, I’d rather the police’s time be spent proportionally to this issue, and I’d rather the MTA/advocates address the structural issues at play. 

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15 minutes ago, RR503 said:

By spending so much time discussing this, though, you’re indulging their misdirection. No one would say that farebeating is the driver of the transit crisis, or even on the list of top 10 drivers. It’s merely something that happened in parallel that the agency is trying to use to distract. Yes, it would be good to reduce rates (and I see changes in enforcement are starting that), but the bulk of that effort will have to wait for a new turnstile design. Until then, I’d rather the police’s time be spent proportionally to this issue, and I’d rather the MTA/advocates address the structural issues at play. 

I disagree.  Just about everyone in my advocacy group is against these fare hikes and feels that the (MTA) should tackle this problem that they claim is causing the agency such harm financially, and I am vehemently opposed to them, especially when they have failed to reign in their spending on various levels.  I don't see this as a distraction.  I think it's something that they need to aggressively address sooner rather than later, and not just because of lost revenue. I'm a strong believer of the broken windows policy where you must tackle the smaller things to avoid the bigger things, and while fare beating is on the smaller scale in the overall scheme of things, I have not been pleased with what I've been seeing in the subways. More and more homeless and mentally unstable people urinating and defecating everywhere, and on and on.  There needs to be a crackdown on all of this. Our City is becoming filthier by the day and there's a sense of lawlessness that has become progressively worse.  Just this morning I had to run out of a subway car that was filled with homeless people stinking up the place.  Our subway system especially is being taken over, with the riders essentially taking a back seat.  The police are afraid to police.  This whole fare beating problem opens up a Pandora's box that will only worsen until it is addressed. 

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41 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I disagree.  Just about everyone in my advocacy group is against these fare hikes and feels that the (MTA) should tackle this problem that they claim is causing the agency such harm financially, and I am vehemently opposed to them, especially when they have failed to reign in their spending on various levels.  I don't see this as a distraction.  I think it's something that they need to aggressively address sooner rather than later, and not just because of lost revenue. I'm a strong believer of the broken windows policy where you must tackle the smaller things to avoid the bigger things, and while fare beating is on the smaller scale in the overall scheme of things, I have not been pleased with what I've been seeing in the subways. More and more homeless and mentally unstable people urinating and defecating everywhere, and on and on.  There needs to be a crackdown on all of this. Our City is becoming filthier by the day and there's a sense of lawlessness that has become progressively worse.  Just this morning I had to run out of a subway car that was filled with homeless people stinking up the place.  Our subway system especially is being taken over, with the riders essentially taking a back seat.  The police are afraid to police.  This whole fare beating problem opens up a Pandora's box that will only worsen until it is addressed. 

1. The (MTA) is mandated to raise the fare by law. We've discussed this countless time doesn't that mean they're going to have to raise it at some point just buying time correct? 

2. @RR503 has a point. Fix the smaller windows huh? What does that matter when the entire house comes down now there are no windows at all.  Protect the foundation at all cost that should be A1 priority. Kinda like asking me to lock and secure the front door when were minutes from a meteor impact. Gauge your levels.  3. All this lawlessness your feeling get a grip. To much news to much feed.  You mean to tell me NYC is anywhere near what it was 1979-1991? I lived through that and I have to tell you something it's Disneyland compared to NYC I remember. These are all societal issues that need to be solved the US as a whole has changed culturally so much. Every time I leave the States I see it more and more. We have way too many people that are delusional in thinking that America is still the Moral Haven it once was 40 years ago. Or how things were back in my days. Let's start with reality and then the questions of why people are homeless or feel it's okay not pay. And work on Solutions on how to fix. As a group, not some moral authority or mob. None of us here have the anointed authority to judge others. God forbid hard times should fall on us or anyone we know. Not saying we shouldn't be trying to remedying the issue-heavy handed isn't the way. The City and Feds need to work with the MTA on outreach. Fearbeaters just make an example and get the cameras into place.

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9 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

1. The (MTA) is mandated to raise the fare by law. We've discussed this countless time doesn't that mean they're going to have to raise it at some point just buying time correct? 

2. @RR503 has a point. Fix the smaller windows huh? What does that matter when the entire house comes down now there are no windows at all.  Protect the foundation at all cost that should be A1 priority. Kinda like asking me to lock and secure the front door when were minutes from a meteor impact. Gauge your levels.  3. All this lawlessness your feeling get a grip. To much news to much feed.  You mean to tell me NYC is anywhere near what it was 1979-1991? I lived through that and I have to tell you something it's Disneyland compared to NYC I remember. These are all societal issues that need to be solved the US as a whole has changed culturally so much. Every time I leave the States I see it more and more. We have way too many people that are delusional in thinking that America is still the Moral Haven it once was 40 years ago. Or how things were back in my days. Let's start with reality and then the questions of why people are homeless or feel it's okay not pay. And work on Solutions on how to fix. As a group, not some moral authority or mob. None of us here have to Anointed authority to judge others. God forbid hard times should fall on us or anyone we know. Not saying we shouldn't be trying to remedying the issue-heavy handed isn't the way. The City and Feds need to work with the MTA and outreach. Fearbeaters just make an example and get the cameras into place.

1. Just because they're mandated to raise it by law doesn't mean it makes sense to keep raising it. It means that at some point it has to be looked at from a feasibility standpoint because it is hurting ridership and leading to more people fleeing the system, and thus the agency losing more money.  Even some board members at the (MTA) admit this.  It's a valid concern. The status quo shouldn't remain just because.

2. What does it matter? It matters because it was used previously and quite successful I may add in making the system safer and leading to the boom in ridership that once existed.

I'm not sure where you're getting this moral haven from. That ship sailed a long time ago. 

No one is judging anybody.  Simple facts being stated about what's happening in the system and the need for them to be addressed.

There are already outreach programs, so you're preaching to choir, and there are already cameras in place, hence why the (MTA) knows that there's a problem. They've looked at tons of footage to show them.

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1 hour ago, RR503 said:

By spending so much time discussing this, though, you’re indulging their misdirection. No one would say that farebeating is the driver of the transit crisis, or even on the list of top 10 drivers. It’s merely something that happened in parallel that the agency is trying to use to distract. Yes, it would be good to reduce rates (and I see changes in enforcement are starting that), but the bulk of that effort will have to wait for a new turnstile design. Until then, I’d rather the police’s time be spent proportionally to this issue, and I’d rather the MTA/advocates address the structural issues at play. 

 

Don't bother arguing. He has had this mindset forever. Can't argue with a brick wall.

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23 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

1. Just because they're mandated to raise it by law doesn't mean it makes sense to keep raising it. It means that at some point it has to be looked at from a feasibility standpoint because it is hurting ridership and leading to more people fleeing the system, and thus the agency losing more money.  Even some board members at the (MTA) admit this.  It's a valid concern. The status quo shouldn't remain just because.

2. What does it matter? It matters because it was used previously and quite successful I may add in making the system safer and leading to the boom in ridership that once existed.

I'm not sure where you're getting this moral haven from. That ship sailed a long time ago. 

No one is judging anybody.  Simple facts being stated about what's happening in the system. 

There are already outreach programs, so you're preaching to choir, and there are already cameras in place, hence why the (MTA) knows that there's a problem. They've looked at tons of footage to show them.

1. Okay, what I'm hearing is.  Just because I legally have to raise the rent doesn't mean I should?  Who agreed to the mandate who passed the law? Why are you wasting energy on the  (MTA) level. Get your elected officials on the phone and get to the source Albany runs the show.

2. It matters second to crumbling infrastructure.  No Infrasture = No Trains = No ridership.   Current outreach needs to be analyzed and progress shown there always room for improvement we also have to keep in mind the level of Homelessness has increased quite a bit over the last 5-6 years but funding has not. My point in needed help possibly from the feds, NYC should take a look at some at of the things places like SF are doing as well. Sure the camera's are there half the time people don't even notice there in place. The (MTA) is also starting to set up displays where you can clearly see your being recorded red dot and everything. IMO I feel that would be a great deterrent for most casual fare beaters.

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22 minutes ago, GojiMet86 said:

 

Don't bother arguing. He has had this mindset forever. Can't argue with a brick wall.

And I'm perfectly fine with my position. I have a difference of philosophy with RR.  The one I support has been proven to work in this City before and it's better than what's happening now. Now anything goes... That's how this City is being run in general... Into the ground.

19 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

1. Okay, what I'm hearing is.  Just because I legally have to raise the rent doesn't mean I should?  Who agreed to the mandate who passed the law? Why are you wasting energy on the level (MTA). Get your elected officials on the phone and get to the source Albany runs the show.

2. It matters second to crumbling infrastructure.  No Infrasture = No Trains = No ridership.   Current outreach needs to be analyzed and progress shown there always room for improvement we also have to keep in mind the level of Homelessness has increased quite a bit over the last 5-6 years but funding has not. My point in needed help possibly from the feds, NYC should take a look at some at of the things places like SF are doing as well. Sure the camera's are there half the time people don't even notice there in place. The (MTA) is also starting to set up displays where you can clearly see your being recorded red dot and everything. IMO I feel that would be a great deterrent for most casual fare beaters.

1. The (MTA) can raise it if they want but even they realize that there comes a point to where it negatively impacts ridership, which is why they are proposing capping the fares for some riders.

2. I disagree with the notion that the issue should be left on the back burner.  Both issues you raised can be addressed simultaneously and should be for that matter to arrest ridership.  You're sadly mistaken if you think that part of the reason that people are leaving the system isn't due to a lack of addressing QOL issues above ground and in the system in general (vagrants, etc.).  Your last point about the (MTA) looking for advice from San Francisco of all places... LOL California is the last place to look to for advice on handling vagrants in the transportation system.  Cameras help, but ultimately people will stop when they see that they receive consequences for their actions.

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36 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

1. The (MTA) can raise it if they want but even they realize that there comes a point to where it negatively impacts ridership, which is why they are proposing capping the fares for some riders.

You missed the point NYS is making the (MTA) pay debt and they're going to raise the fare to do it.. Tell Albany to back down!

 

36 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

2. I disagree with the notion that the issue should be left on the back burner.  Both issues you raised can be addressed simultaneously and should be for that matter to arrest ridership.  You're sadly mistaken if you think that part of the reason that people are leaving the system isn't due to a lack of addressing QOL issues above ground and in the system in general (vagrants, etc.).  Your last point about the (MTA) looking for advice from San Francisco of all places... LOL California is the last place to look to for advice on handling vagrants in the transportation system.  Cameras help, but ultimately people will stop when they see that they receive consequences for their actions.

Not saying you can't do multiple things simultaneously but there is a hierarchical structure to priorities Infrastructure will always be at the top of that list. People maybe be leaving due to QOL my point is the (MTA) isn't in this alone. More funding from state and Federal for outreach is also needed to help the increase in Homelessness in the City. Some of this is also on the mental health system as well. There are than a few moving parts. MUNI is a bearly a system compared to NYCTA I'm speaking from the outreach standpoint and what SF is going to get people back on their feet and into housing. Actions are based on perceptions. If the perception is I'm not going to get away the action won't be taken. That video was a great indication of that. 85% of those folks guaranteed seeing themselves being recorded would have thought twice. You think we should be spending tax dollars locking up Italian grandmothers from New Dorp because they skipped fare and entered through the gate in Bay Ridge?  There's real criminals out here bud. Write the ticket and keep it moving.

 

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17 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

1. You missed the point NYS is making the (MTA) pay debt and they're going to raise the fare to do it.. Tell Albany to back down!

 

Not saying you can't do multiple things simultaneously but there is a hierarchical structure to priorities Infrastructure will always be at the top of that list. People maybe be leaving due to QOL my point is the (MTA) isn't in this alone. More funding from state and Federal for outreach is also needed to help the increase in Homelessness in the City. Some of this is also on the mental health system as well. There are than a few moving parts. MUNI is a bearly a system compared to NYCTA I'm speaking from the outreach standpoint and what SF is going to get people back on their feet and into housing. Actions are based on perceptions. If the perception is I'm not going to get away the action won't be taken. That video was a great indication of that. 85% of those folks guaranteed seeing themselves being recorded would have thought twice. You think we should be spending tax dollars locking up Italian grandmothers from New Dorp because they skipped fare and entered through the gate in Bay Ridge?  There's real criminals out here bud. Write the ticket and keep it moving.

 

1. I didn't miss the point at all.  I've already spoken with elected officials about this.  It seems as if there's a general understanding that some permanent funding source must be obtained to address this issue long-term, along with a transportation lock-box. Nothing will happen until the legislative session resumes, which will be in 2019.

2.  Well San Francisco has its own housing crisis and the greater California for that matter, and from what I've seen, they are still in crisis mode, so I wouldn't want to look to them as a model of "success". Their liberal policies are exactly why they're in the mess that they're in to begin with.

3.  People are doing it because there are NO consequences.  What you're proposing is exactly what should happen. It isn't. That's the problem... 

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29 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

1. I didn't miss the point at all.  I've already spoken with elected officials about this.  It seems as if there's a general understanding that some permanent funding source must be obtained to address this issue long-term, along with a lock box. 

Solve this and maybe we wouldnt be talking about fare hikes in the 1st place. Always blame the Boss and that's Albany and Cuomo. The (MTA) is the worker in this case.

29 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

2.  Well San Francisco has its own housing crisis and California for that matter, and from what I've seen they are still in crisis mode, so I wouldn't want to look to them as a model of "success".

There's some truth there but NYC isn't that far from its own housing crisis, there's always something new to learn in someone's Experience.

29 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

3.  People are doing it because there are NO consequences.  What you're proposing is exactly what should happen. It isn't. That's the problem... 

Write tickets. Shuffle MTA workers to new station information posts maybe make them more visually seen near fare control.   What can you do? Hire more cops to cover all 472 Stations? Lock someone up and pay over $1,500 per person to house and book em for skipping on $2.75 ride? The cure costs more than the ailment.  You're never going to stop everyone it's just not possible. What's your plan spend millions to save millions?

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On 12/26/2018 at 4:49 PM, NoHacksJustKhaks said:

The last time I rode the subway and didn’t catch someone attempting to farebeat, seemed like 6 months ago (granted, I don’t ride the system every day, but enough to see it get worse and worse). The agency really needs something like higher turnstiles installed on more stations or else I suspect this issue will become bigger, rising fares and troubled financial woes aren’t going to slow the problem down either so it’s best time to find a solution now.

Or go to the kind of doors the PATCO line (Philly-South Jersey) uses.   You could do it like PATCO and make it where you swipe your card going in AND out of the system, with fare machines inside the system for those who don't have enough on their metrocards and so forth.  

 

6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It's become a big focus because the agency claims it's a problem. My position is that IF it is that big of a problem, then they need to 1) address it in some fashion to reduce such a deficit, and 2) stop asking the paying riders to pay more for their incompetence.  To me the fact that they're only now claiming it's a problem is just an example of an overall bigger problem, which is that they can't get their house in order, not that I somehow think that THIS is the reason why they're hurting so bad.  

As said, maybe go to the PATCO-style turnstyles to fix this. 

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4 hours ago, RailRunRob said:

Solve this and maybe we wouldnt be talking about fare hikes in the 1st place. Always blame the Boss and that's Albany and Cuomo. The (MTA) is the worker in this case.

There's some truth there but NYC isn't that far from its own housing crisis, there's always something new to learn in someone's Experience.

Write tickets. Shuffle MTA workers to new station information posts maybe make them more visually seen near fare control.   What can you do? Hire more cops to cover all 472 Stations? Lock someone up and pay over $1,500 per person to house and book em for skipping on $2.75 ride? The cure costs more than the ailment.  You're never going to stop everyone it's just not possible. What's your plan spend millions to save millions?

Dude give it a rest already. Are you hard of reading or what? I AGREED with what you said!!! I said ISN’T doing that, which is the problem. 

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6 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

I disagree.  Just about everyone in my advocacy group is against these fare hikes and feels that the (MTA) should tackle this problem that they claim is causing the agency such harm financially, and I am vehemently opposed to them, especially when they have failed to reign in their spending on various levels.  I don't see this as a distraction.  I think it's something that they need to aggressively address sooner rather than later, and not just because of lost revenue. I'm a strong believer of the broken windows policy where you must tackle the smaller things to avoid the bigger things, and while fare beating is on the smaller scale in the overall scheme of things, I have not been pleased with what I've been seeing in the subways. More and more homeless and mentally unstable people urinating and defecating everywhere, and on and on.  There needs to be a crackdown on all of this. Our City is becoming filthier by the day and there's a sense of lawlessness that has become progressively worse.  Just this morning I had to run out of a subway car that was filled with homeless people stinking up the place.  Our subway system especially is being taken over, with the riders essentially taking a back seat.  The police are afraid to police.  This whole fare beating problem opens up a Pandora's box that will only worsen until it is addressed. 

I see many flaws with this approach. First, I wouldn't trust the MTA's fare loss stats. The number of fare evaders may be correct, but it's unclear whether or not they're assuming all evaders are on PPR metrocards. I would expect at least that basic piece of methodological information before we accept their conclusions. 

I think you've probably anticipated what I will say about broken windows: it's palliative justice. You aren't doing jack sh*t to fix structural issues in society (or, in this case, the price of transit or the design of turnstiles or the value calculus people do in their heads), you're just making things look nice. I think we should absolutely police this stuff -- law is law, theft is theft -- but beyond saying that we should police evaders (or design evader-proof fare payment equipment/protocols) I don't think it should be a priority, because really the only thing this whole fare evasion discussion serves to do is to externalize the real driver of the MTA's revenue plunge, which is its service-driven ridership loss (and I'd argue, too, that poor service leads to more evasion). Even if we are to accept the MTA's evasion stats as the absolute truth in separating evasion driven losses from those that are service driven, only about 40 percent of ridership loss is evasion. The real driver is just bad service. There are myriad ways you could improve service tomorrow at zero (or even positive) cost to the agency; those should be the focus now, not these other, external factors. 

If I may step outside this for a second: I see we're just going to argue in circles to impasse here. If you choose not to respond, I won't see that as any sort of acquiescence, merely as a sign that you've moved to other things. 

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7 minutes ago, RR503 said:

I see many flaws with this approach. First, I wouldn't trust the MTA's fare loss stats. The number of fare evaders may be correct, but it's unclear whether or not they're assuming all evaders are on PPR metrocards. I would expect at least that basic piece of methodological information before we accept their conclusions. 

I think you've probably anticipated what I will say about broken windows: it's palliative justice. You aren't doing jack sh*t to fix structural issues in society (or, in this case, the price of transit or the design of turnstiles or the value calculus people do in their heads), you're just making things look nice. I think we should absolutely police this stuff -- law is law, theft is theft -- but beyond saying that we should police evaders (or design evader-proof fare payment equipment/protocols) I don't think it should be a priority, because really the only thing this whole fare evasion discussion serves to do is to externalize the real driver of the MTA's revenue plunge, which is its service-driven ridership loss (and I'd argue, too, that poor service leads to more evasion). Even if we are to accept the MTA's evasion stats as the absolute truth in separating evasion driven losses from those that are service driven, only about 40 percent of ridership loss is evasion. The real driver is just bad service. There are myriad ways you could improve service tomorrow at zero (or even positive) cost to the agency; those should be the focus now, not these other, external factors. 

If I may step outside this for a second: I see we're just going to argue in circles to impasse here. If you choose not to respond, I won't see that as any sort of acquiescence, merely as a sign that you've moved to other things. 

I said it earlier. We have a difference in philosophy regarding the broken windows policy, and that’s fine. I agree 100% with your other comments. Since this came up in our discussions, I’ll leave this here:

 

 

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On 12/28/2018 at 3:46 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

LOL California is the last place to look to for advice on handling vagrants in the transportation system.

Between tent cities, hospitals dumping them at shelters, and SF doing a NYC and just letting them be, you're absolutely right.

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38 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Between tent cities, hospitals dumping them at shelters, and SF doing a NYC and just letting them be, you're absolutely right.

I told you. NBC did a special on the homeless crisis in California. It was SHOCKING to see people laid out on private lawns camping out. Just imagine you own a house, and you have to chase homeless people off of your property because they constantly camp out day after day. That’s why I have to laugh when RailrunRob talks about how great of a job they are supposedly doing out there. First off, San Francisco has all sorts of restrictions on housing which is why it is SO expensive out there. Elected officials are in a bind also because every area puts up a serious fight. The ritzy areas don’t want homeless places in their backyards for fear of depreciating home values. We have a problem here too, but we certainly should not be looking at California of all places. Worst of all because the weather is generally mild year round, there is no retreat of them.

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1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That’s why I have to laugh when RailrunRob talks about how great of a job they are supposedly doing out there

Never said that. I'm in SF every two months. Said it's important to learn from them for better or worst they have tons of new initiatives and taxing earmarked for the homeless there implementing. You're correct the climate is what makes it more visible NYC is underground. But with newer industries namely tech moving into the New York space more and more folks are at risk. Lessons to learn from SF. The way things are moving in another 10 years if you're making less than 150k a year you'll be eating ramen for sure.

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6 minutes ago, RailRunRob said:

Never said that. I'm in SF every two months. Said it's important to learn from them for better or worst they have tons of new initiatives and taxing earmarked for the homeless there implementing. You're correct the climate is what makes it more visible NYC is underground. But with newer industries namely tech moving into the New York space more and more folks are at risk. Lessons to learn from SF. The way things are moving in another 10 years if you're making less than 150k a year you'll be eating ramen for sure.

That’s the impression I got, but yes, we can look at them for what went wrong for sure. I think NYC has some advantages in that you upzoning going on, but I will say that it will only be more expensive. I would consider myself lucky in that I got a multi year lease so I’m on the new lease for another year and then I’ll be looking at another increase likely $1700 - 1800. I know people already moaning paying over $2,000 a month.

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17 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That’s the impression I got, but yes, we can look at them for what went wrong for sure. I think NYC has some advantages in that you upzoning going on, but I will say that it will only be more expensive. I would consider myself lucky in that I got a multi year lease so I’m on the new lease for another year and then I’ll be looking at another increase likely $1700 - 1800. I know people already moaning paying over $2,000 a month.

NYC is not keeping up with the homeless issue. If we're saying for sure that it's going to continue to get more costly isn't that going to exacerbate the issue were trying to solve? How are people going to pay fare more homeless visible?  Your lucky but what about other people City workers ,MTA, NYPD, DNSY,FDNY what are they going to do? Most people are 2 paychecks from losing it all. $2,000 a month? Man that sounds good all these highrises $3,800, $4,000 and $4,500 a month. LIC, Downtwn Bklyn.  This isn't sustainable. The Middle-class is no more.  

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New York better worry about New York before New York ends up falling victim to New York.....

Concurrently, yeah homelessness is on the rise, yeah the middle class has evaporated, and yeah, New York is trying valiantly to become some sort of haven for the rich.....

p.s. - like the Rangers, Yanks, Knicks, Giants, Devils, Mets, Jets, and Nets..... That plan is failing.

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1 hour ago, B35 via Church said:

New York better worry about New York before New York ends up falling victim to New York.....

Concurrently, yeah homelessness is on the rise, yeah the middle class has evaporated, and yeah, New York is trying valiantly to become some sort of haven for the rich.....

p.s. - like the Rangers, Yanks, Knicks, Giants, Devils, Mets, Jets, and Nets..... That plan is failing.

Haven for the rich? Not with the tax rates here.

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1 hour ago, RailRunRob said:

NYC is not keeping up with the homeless issue. If we're saying for sure that it's going to continue to get more costly isn't that going to exacerbate the issue were trying to solve? How are people going to pay fare more homeless visible?  Your lucky but what about other people City workers ,MTA, NYPD, DNSY,FDNY what are they going to do? Most people are 2 paychecks from losing it all. $2,000 a month? Man that sounds good all these highrises $3,800, $4,000 and $4,500 a month. LIC, Downtwn Bklyn.  This isn't sustainable. The Middle-class is no more.  

It’s true. Even people making over $100,000 are complaining and they have no kids. Just themselves to support. Once my housing expenses are over $2000 a month, I’ll be buying. Everyone is getting squeezed. My point about NYC is that it is trying to upzone to address the problem. San Francisco doesn’t have much to upzone. The problem with NYC is rents keep jumping which in turn makes everything else more expensive. For the younger generation they may all be living at home or living with roommates. That seems to be the trend now. People my age don’t even have their own place and I’m like really?? I had my first place at 23 or so. I don’t think that will be the norm anymore. Funny thing is homelessness is becoming a problem around the nation. It is just exacerbated in places like NYC and parts of California.

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52 minutes ago, CenSin said:

Haven for the rich? Not with the tax rates here.

...among other things.

27 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

It’s true. Even people making over $100,000 are complaining and they have no kids. Just themselves to support. Once my housing expenses are over $2000 a month, I’ll be buying. Everyone is getting squeezed. My point about NYC is that it is trying to upzone to address the problem. San Francisco doesn’t have much to upzone. The problem with NYC is rents keep jumping which in turn makes everything else more expensive. For the younger generation they may all be living at home or living with roommates. That seems to be the trend now. People my age don’t even have their own place and I’m like really?? I had my first place at 23 or so. I don’t think that will be the norm anymore. Funny thing is homelessness is becoming a problem around the nation. It is just exacerbated in places like NYC and parts of California.

Yup, and there's enough people living beyond their means out here too, so I'm not exactly remorseful for somebody in that category (SINK's w/ 6 figure incomes) claiming hardship or otherwise crying broke..... The simple life may be "boring", but I'd much prefer that than to be up to my neck in debt.... Older I get, the more of a miser I'm becoming.

Fools out here being too quick to tie the knot & end up getting taken to the cleaners, attributes to some of the homelessness out here as well....

 

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17 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

...among other things.

Yup, and there's enough people living beyond their means out here too, so I'm not exactly remorseful for somebody in that category (SINK's w/ 6 figure incomes) claiming hardship or otherwise crying broke..... The simple life may be "boring", but I'd much prefer that than to be up to my neck in debt.... Older I get, the more of a miser I'm becoming.

Fools out here being too quick to tie the knot & end up getting taken to the cleaners, attributes to some of the homelessness out here as well....

 

Despite the rising rents, I don't believe that's why more people aren't paying. They're just taking advantage of a lack of enforcement.

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I'd like to see the MTA take another crack at the HEET turnstiles, perhaps with easier-to-push bars or panels so that folks won't complain that it's too hard to operate. Its by far more effective than the standard turnstiles since you can't jump over or crawl underneath them. Its unfortunate that the MTA has gotten rid of them in places that need them most. 

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