Bus speeds to increase 25 percent by 2020, Mayor de Blasio vows

[bobtehpanda]

12 hours ago, Deucey said:

Less that than when BdB lowered it to 25, he likely didn't have DOT adjust signal timing to match, leading to buses and cars hitting more reds.

The buses stop every two blocks. They've been hittin reds for as long as I can remember.

[P3F]

2 hours ago, RR503 said:

Median traffic speed on all those roads is well below 30 regardless of the light optimization; there's simply too much traffic through most of the day for things to move fast. That's what I meant when I wrote that quote. 

I'm not sure I agree with that, but there's no use in arguing anecdotal evidence with more anecdotal evidence.

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The average car carries, what, 1.2 people? Don't let the mass of steel fool you -- a good sized queue of cars is easily less than midday pedestrian traffic on Ocean Parkway. 

Regardless, the argument here has a lot less to do with some McNamaran calculation of time lost vs time gained. It has to do with safety. Say what you like about Vision Zero; the fact of the matter is that its provisions have made a measurable impact on street safety -- see the above charts posted by Union Tpk, and traffic death stats. I'd argue they don't go far enough, but, well, that's me.  

Again, not sure I agree with that. Unless you have some kind of statistics, I don't think that can be written off as fact. And yes, I frequently cross that street.

The problem with crediting the impact to "Vision Zero" is that not everything necessarily contributed equally to the statistics. In terms of increasing pedestrian safety, I personally believe the extended curbs, extended crosswalk timers, and pedestrian lights turning white in advance have contributed more than the speed limit reduction. Got non-anecdotal evidence to the contrary? Let's see it.

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Make the subway functional again. Make an honest-to-goodness effort with the bus network (structure, enforcement, bus lanes, etc). Increase general system coverage. Run more off-peak service on NYCT and the railroads. Reduce fares on certain services. 

Once you have those 'outs' from driving, then I'd be delighted to go and smear sidewalk extensions and protected bike lanes all over the road network. Road space for all > road space for those who can afford to buy/rent/hail a car.

All I can say is, good luck with that. If it happens, then that's great, and will actually reduce car usage. Is it likely to happen? Hmm.

[Joel Up Front]

If buses rarely reach 20 MPH already, what's going a fraction of a mile an hour faster going to do? 

[Deucey]

3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

The buses stop every two blocks. They've been hittin reds for as long as I can remember.

Only ones I remember - Bx at least - stopping at every stop in the 90s and now are Bx1/2, Bx12 and Bx35.

And M5 - back when Granny made us grocery shop in Macy's basement.

But it's worse now.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

37 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Only ones I remember - Bx at least - stopping at every stop in the 90s and now are Bx1/2, Bx12 and Bx35.

And M5 - back when Granny made us grocery shop in Macy's basement.

But it's worse now.

The M5 on Broadway can be pretty annoying. Anything below 135th though, isn't too bad (with the except of maybe rush hours in Midtown and up to 72nd Street). Otherwise, the M5 nowadays pretty much coasts south of 135th. Of course, part of that is due to the split two years ago, which basically left intra-Midtown and Midtown-UWS riders in that area, along with whatever the M5 gets on Riverside Drive (tends to be more during the summer months).

[Deucey]

5 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

The M5 on Broadway can be pretty annoying. Anything below 135th though, isn't too bad (with the except of maybe rush hours in Midtown and up to 72nd Street). Otherwise, the M5 nowadays pretty much coasts south of 135th. Of course, part of that is due to the split two years ago, which basically left intra-Midtown and Midtown-UWS riders in that area, along with whatever the M5 gets on Riverside Drive (tends to be more during the summer months).

When I rented a room on 148th St in 2015, M5 was my way of killing time til the lady I rented from went to sleep (or got that damn turtle out the bath tub. Long story.). That run to the Ferry took an hour just to get to 14th/5th. But, if it weren't for that, i'd've never seen the Craigslist ad to take over the lease for my current apartment - on Staten Island.

Made up for those shitty Saturdays in the 90s where I had to carry grocery bags from Macy's on 34th Street up to the Bronx.

[P3F]

15 hours ago, Joel Up Front said:

If buses rarely reach 20 MPH already, what's going a fraction of a mile an hour faster going to do? 

Local buses during peak hours might not be visibly affected. During off peak hours, however, less of the stops actually have people waiting or getting off, so the buses can get up to speed a bit more. In addition, we have limited (+ Select) and express buses that certainly can reach that speed on parts of their runs.

[N6 Limited]

On 1/16/2019 at 10:19 PM, P3F said:

Regarding the ridiculous 20 mph limit suggestion, I am a bus rider and I am not interested in buses getting even slower than they already are. Believe it or not, people who take transit actually want to get to places within a reasonable amount of time.

As for the blanket 25 mph limit, its execution was flawed in that it was applied without much discretion. 25 mph is fine for regular residential side streets. For very thin roads such as the east-west streets in Carroll Gardens, even 20 mph is appropriate. 

However, major thoroughfares such as Ocean Parkway, Kings Highway (east of Ocean Av), Queens Boulevard, and 4th Avenue (Brooklyn) have no business with a 25 mph limit. The lethargic speed causes the roads to be more inefficient at doing their job, which is to allow large amounts of vehicles to cover non-short distances. It's gotten to the point where taking Ocean Parkway is significantly slower than taking Coney Island Avenue for an equivalent distance, and the latter is a narrower road that is frequently marred by double parking. Because of all the traffic, the side streets (which were not designed for high capacity) are seeing significant increases in vehicular traffic, making pedestrians ever so slightly less safe. In other terms of pedestrian safety, I support the lengthening of crosswalk timers, and installing curb extensions where they do not interfere with road capacity.

I hate slow buses, they make me regret even boarding.

I can tell you that in Queens, it's quicker to get around by avoiding the main roads.  

The main roads have the 25mph speed limit, which people are forced to do because the for-hire vehicles (city wide), the drivers behind those vehicles are SLOW, they turn corners SLOW, they have no sense of urgency, they block lanes, they stick out of left turn lanes, they're the worst drivers by far. They go 50MPH or less on the parkways in all lanes, especially the left. They don't even speed up to clear an intersection when the traffic signal is about to change to red. Believe it or not, traffic moves better smoother when arbitrary rules are ignored/bent, this is why driverless vehicles would make traffic WORSE.

(Driverless Vehicle Logic: "Oh there's a double parked car in my path but I cannot cross the double yellow so I'm going to sit here until this vehicle clears my path")

(Competent driver: "Oh there's a double parked car, I'm just going to go around it (crossing the double yellow) when I have an opening of vehicles traveling in the opposite direction)

Many signals are timed to make you stop and go every couple/few blocks. Where as you can go one block over and bypass all the unnecessary congestion. Most drivers are not trying to to win speed trophies, they just want to get to their destination with as little interruption as possible.

On 1/16/2019 at 10:38 PM, RR503 said:

In almost all of those cases, stochastic congestion inherent in NYC reduces speed on those to around 25 regardless of what the limit is. Making the limit 25 really then just makes the lights work better. 

Regardless, seeing transit speeds and road priority from a solely road speed perspective is reductive as hell. The issue with slow buses (and, if I dare say so, with traffic safety) has far more to do with there being too many cars around; fix that, and then your speeds will be improved by a much larger factor than raising limits to 30-35 -- a measure which increases the risk of pedestrian fatality, much more than any shift of traffic to a lower-cap road ever could. 

I also hate to be *that* guy, but I'm unsure as to whether we should be prioritizing road cap without question here. Yes, we need a functional road network, but the fact of the matter is that there will almost always be more pedestrians using a given intersection than drivers...which again brings us back to the 'reducing # of cars is most important' side of things -- if you have less stress on your road network, you can afford to reduce capacity. 

Well the buses were always slow, so riders were always looking for alternatives. This is why the MTA/NYCT/Bus Union had a problem with dollar cabs.

But then, for-hire apps came about and riders could get faster door to door service and/or own a car and drive people around to pay for it. Car ownership in NYC has increased since these apps started, now the road is LITTERED with TLC plated vehicles, slowing down everyone's trip.

[Bay Ridge Express]

2 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

What makes it all the more crappier is when the bus operator stops on yellow! 😡 

No... what's crappy is the position of the traffic light itself. Either they're ahead of the bus stop but the bus has to stop or the bus has to sit through the light first and then the stop comes right after. I've said it before but a lot of time is being spent by buses sitting at a traffic light. Not stopping on yellow is almost just breaking the law. 

[N6 Limited]

5 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

What makes it all the more crappier is when the bus operator stops on yellow! 😡 

Or when they stop on green and wait for it to change yellow!

[Future ENY OP]

15 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

What makes it all the more crappier is when the bus operator stops on yellow! 😡 

I’m going to stop you right there. I’m a commercial driver. Like MTA drivers most commercial drivers (myself included) must adhere to traffic regulations. If that means stopping on the yellow than so be it. At the end of the day it’s al about safety. I’ve taken a the yellow to speed up. However, when i have no freight in the van stopping distance is totally different when you have considerable freight. 

I understand as a commuter you want to get to your destination in an efficient manner. However, the driver is NOT going to risk of safety if others to please you. I say this to you. The next time you board a bus and the driver stops on the yellow it simply means in  lingo. STOP 🛑. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

3 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

I’m going to stop you right there. I’m a commercial driver. Like MTA drivers most commercial drivers (myself included) must adhere to traffic regulations. If that means stopping on the yellow than so be it. At the end of the day it’s al about safety. I’ve taken a the yellow to speed up. However, when i have no freight in the van stopping distance is totally different when you have considerable freight. 

I understand as a commuter you want to get to your destination in an efficient manner. However, the driver is NOT going to risk of safety if others to please you. I say this to you. The next time you board a bus and the driver stops on the yellow it simply means in  lingo. STOP 🛑. 

All I know is they seem to be able to haul @ss when it’s the last trip of the night. Yes drivers should operate safely, but let’s nit pretend like some don’t drag the line for one reason or another. Sometimes it isn’t their fault, but it does happen.

[B35 via Church]

16 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

What makes it all the more crappier is when the bus operator stops on yellow! 😡 

What makes it all the more "crappier" is poor traffic light synchronization.....

A good test of a driver's judgment is to observe his/her actions whilst approaching a yellow light.....

What you're implicating here OTOH is that drivers should be blowing through yellows all over the place.... What a wanton disregard for bicyclists, pedestrians, and other motorists.

 

[MHV9218]

One other thought about all the speed limit bashing. On the roads that everybody whines about being lowered (Queens Boulevard, etc.), I can speak firsthand that absolutely nobody drives at 25mph. Thing to remember about speed limits is that they're set to match the 80th percentile of driver speeds, usually. People are always driving faster. On Queens Boulevard, or even Park Avenue, for that matter, average speed is consistently 30-35mph with empty streets. Drivers continue to modulate based on conditions, and I for one have not noticed any significant difference in speed on some of those roads. [My DOT gripe has to do with making streets a single lane without utilizing the extra space properly. 8th Street in Manhattan is now a single lane, but these morons didn't even use that space to install a protected bike lane, so you just have crippling congestion, bizarrely wide parking spaces, and bikers crashing into all the cars in traffic. But that's neither here nor there...]

When it comes to bus speeds, it's totally immaterial, since buses were never breaking 35mph on city streets (limit +5), and they are rarely hitting 30mph (new limit +5). We might appreciate that as fans, but ops know they're on the hook if they're caught at speeds like that. So the limit just confirms the existent speeds. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 hour ago, MHV9218 said:

One other thought about all the speed limit bashing. On the roads that everybody whines about being lowered (Queens Boulevard, etc.), I can speak firsthand that absolutely nobody drives at 25mph. Thing to remember about speed limits is that they're set to match the 80th percentile of driver speeds, usually. People are always driving faster. On Queens Boulevard, or even Park Avenue, for that matter, average speed is consistently 30-35mph with empty streets. Drivers continue to modulate based on conditions, and I for one have not noticed any significant difference in speed on some of those roads. [My DOT gripe has to do with making streets a single lane without utilizing the extra space properly. 8th Street in Manhattan is now a single lane, but these morons didn't even use that space to install a protected bike lane, so you just have crippling congestion, bizarrely wide parking spaces, and bikers crashing into all the cars in traffic. But that's neither here nor there...]

When it comes to bus speeds, it's totally immaterial, since buses were never breaking 35mph on city streets (limit +5), and they are rarely hitting 30mph (new limit +5). We might appreciate that as fans, but ops know they're on the hook if they're caught at speeds like that. So the limit just confirms the existent speeds. 

Actually it is because it creates more congestion unnecessarily and helps to lower the speed limit.  Buses trying to navigate around bikers that should be in the bike lane just slows the bus down.

[paulrivera]

14 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

Or when they stop on green and wait for it to change yellow!

Sometimes there would be a good 5 seconds left on the crosswalk timer and the B/O would just stop. That’s the fastest way to get someone to rear end your bus.

1 hour ago, MHV9218 said:

One other thought about all the speed limit bashing. On the roads that everybody whines about being lowered (Queens Boulevard, etc.), I can speak firsthand that absolutely nobody drives at 25mph. Thing to remember about speed limits is that they're set to match the 80th percentile of driver speeds, usually. People are always driving faster. On Queens Boulevard, or even Park Avenue, for that matter, average speed is consistently 30-35mph with empty streets. Drivers continue to modulate based on conditions, and I for one have not noticed any significant difference in speed on some of those roads. [My DOT gripe has to do with making streets a single lane without utilizing the extra space properly. 8th Street in Manhattan is now a single lane, but these morons didn't even use that space to install a protected bike lane, so you just have crippling congestion, bizarrely wide parking spaces, and bikers crashing into all the cars in traffic. But that's neither here nor there...]

When it comes to bus speeds, it's totally immaterial, since buses were never breaking 35mph on city streets (limit +5), and they are rarely hitting 30mph (new limit +5). We might appreciate that as fans, but ops know they're on the hook if they're caught at speeds like that. So the limit just confirms the existent speeds. 

The rule book speed limit is 15 (speed limit MINUS 10) so the lack of common sense is pretty much universal.

[N6 Limited]

All these comments about what's the big deal with bus speeds.

Lets not pretend that if the bus or any vehicle was going a little bit faster they'd be able to make signals that had changed. And we know that when buses get caught, they then have to stop at the next stop, where the next green signal waits for the B/O to close the doors and attempt to pull off before it changes to red.

I know a few locations where if you make a certain signal you can go an additional quarter of a mile or more before having to stop. Whereas if you miss the signal, once it turns green the next one turns red, etc.

[MHV9218]

1 hour ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

Actually it is because it creates more congestion unnecessarily and helps to lower the speed limit.  Buses trying to navigate around bikers that should be in the bike lane just slows the bus down.

What are you arguing about? The point is that that street has no bike lanes, which is a failure of their redesign. They had all this space to either preserve two lanes of traffic or do a protected bike lane, and they half-assed it so it's twice as crowded and just as unsafe.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just now, MHV9218 said:

What are you arguing about? The point is that that street has no bike lanes, which is a failure of their redesign. They had all this space to either preserve two lanes of traffic or do a protected bike lane, and they half-assed it so it's twice as crowded and just as unsafe.

And I'm saying that if they had the bike lanes it would allow traffic to move faster while being safer. What isn't clear?? 

[Orion6025]

23 minutes ago, Chris Alleyne said:

I blow through red lights all the time. It's bound to happen.

I'm not in any position nor do i have the right to judge you or your driving, but... can you not blow lights?

I can't begin to tell you how many car accidents i've seen or accidents involving family and friends because one of the involved cars ran a light...

[MHV9218]

2 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

I blow through red lights all the time. It's bound to happen.

 

2 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

Speeds on all NYC area roads need to be increased to a modest 35-40 mph.

I know you're just trolling on your 37th account here, but you have to do a little better job.

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

I blow through red lights all the time. It's bound to happen.

Too bad it's not off a cliff...

[Deucey]

On 2/15/2019 at 8:39 PM, Chris Alleyne said:

Speeds on all NYC area roads need to be increased to a modest 35-40 mph.

Nah.

NYC needs fewer signalized intersections, but that would require changing driver behavior to something akin to taxicab geometric routing.

[Jdog14]

16 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

I'm serious, when you have poorly timed lights and said signals take a years to change, that pisses people off ( myself included).

 

Very smart to admit on a open forum. Sure NYPD will be looking in short order....

[Union Tpke]

14 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Too bad it's not off a cliff...